Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

Plus, of course, as part of the furious character assassination of Sanni, someone from May's backroom staff outed him as gay, knowing full well the problems that would cause him with his Muslim family and community. There was no point in doing that, other than to punish him for whistleblowing.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/26/brexit-whistleblower-shahmir-sanni-no-10-official-outed-me-to-distract-from-claims

Utterly f**king disgusting behaviour.

[bpoolrover]

I agree needs to be sacked, it's a sorry time when people resort to these kinds of things to get what they want

[wilts rover]

And yet people are still not changing their opinions, why not?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/a-peoples-vote-would-be-a-scandal-in-stoke-britains-capital-of-brexit-speaks-out_uk_5be2f4b0e4b0769d24c7ce6e?vu&utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool

That happened nearly 8 months ago.

May praised her adviser at the time and he's still working for her.

They did the job. They painted Sanni as a spurned gay lover who had gone off on one. So his accusations about seriously illegal activity at the Leave campaign were dismissed by most of the media.

But still. Both sides eh?

[Filo]

We’ve seen that kind of behavior from our own fans towards our own fans in recent times when opposing sides clash. It has become accepted as normal bevior to some people I’m afraid

[wilts rover]

Worth reading if you are concerned about the economic effect of Brexit on British business. Best avoided if you refuse to believe it will have any effect:

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1061554026284834817

[Donnywolf]

Coming up to 100 Pages and still as divisive as ever with opinions entrenched on both sides

2 and a bit years of every news item mentioning B****t in some form or another and no doubt years more of still mentioning it if it goes wrong ! I can hear it all now

Roll on some kind of closure /  an end to the chaos - whichever way it takes us. Just wish I could see how history judges the whole thing in 20 years or sos time !

Again it will be either an inspired move if it goes well or a total b***s up if it goes wrong.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile in the ongoing clusterf**k.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46188790

"We're working flat out," says the PM, "to finalise a deal that has got f**k all chance of getting through Parliament."

[SydneyRover]

Coming up to 100 Pages and still as divisive as ever with opinions entrenched on both sides

2 and a bit years of every news item mentioning B****t in some form or another and no doubt years more of still mentioning it if it goes wrong ! I can hear it all now

Roll on some kind of closure /  an end to the chaos - whichever way it takes us. Just wish I could see how history judges the whole thing in 20 years or sos time !

Again it will be either an inspired move if it goes well or a total b***s up if it goes wrong.

In the world outside opinions are changing and a second vote appears to be on the cards and I would suggest more likely than not.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Meanwhile in the ongoing clusterf**k.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46188790

"We're working flat out," says the PM, "to finalise a deal that has got f**k all chance of getting through Parliament."

Indeed and the PM cannot possibly win, she cannot do a deal that will work it just is not possible.

The general public would like our politicians to all find some common ground in some way - not chuffing likely.

[bobjimwilly]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

[Herbert Anchovy]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?

Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?

[Boomstick]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

Nope. It was a manifesto promise. He got elected, and delivered on the promise.
The fact that the result wasn't what he wanted is another matter.

[Not Now Kato]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?

Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?

Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
 
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
 
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
 
Do you still book it?  After all, the majority have spoken.
 
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
 
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit.  What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things.  It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.

[Herbert Anchovy]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?

Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?

Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
 
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
 
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
 
Do you still book it?  After all, the majority have spoken.
 
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
 
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit.  What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things.  It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.

NNK,

I understand your point but your example is nothing like the reality of Brexit.

Attitudes to Brexit are stubbornly divided and while there may be a shift towards a slight majority believing that the decision to leave is wrong, it's doubtful that a second vote would provide a significant majority either way. Just imagine if there is a second vote and the anger that this would generate amongst leave voters, it's impossible to see how this could lead to calm and rationale debate! So, how would any new referendum be different from the first? All we'll get, yet again, is competing claims about competing futures.

If there were a second referendum, and the Remain camp won, do you think that everything would settle down to how it was pre June 2016? Absolutely not. It would solve none of the underlying issues that led to the Brexit vote. All of the argument regarding Brexit that is currently being expressed by Remain would be repeated by the Brexit voters. There's no way that they will disappear and accept it. UKIP (or any other anti EU party if they cant sort themselves out) would likley make huge gains in the 2019 European parliment elections, the Tories would be more divided than ever and Brexiters would continue to believe that the dire warnings should we leave the EU were completely fictitous. And thats before we even get into the debate of how it would affect our perception of UK democracy and also our standing within the EU and teh world at large. 

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

Common ground so strong 17.4 millions people didn't have it?

[Glyn_Wigley]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

Nope. It was a manifesto promise. He got elected, and delivered on the promise.
The fact that the result wasn't what he wanted is another matter.

What do you mean 'nope'? It was only in the manifesto for the reason bjm said.

[Glyn_Wigley]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?

Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?

Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
 
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
 
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
 
Do you still book it?  After all, the majority have spoken.
 
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
 
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit.  What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things.  It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.

NNK,

I understand your point but your example is nothing like the reality of Brexit.

Attitudes to Brexit are stubbornly divided and while there may be a shift towards a slight majority believing that the decision to leave is wrong, it's doubtful that a second vote would provide a significant majority either way. Just imagine if there is a second vote and the anger that this would generate amongst leave voters, it's impossible to see how this could lead to calm and rationale debate! So, how would any new referendum be different from the first? All we'll get, yet again, is competing claims about competing futures.

If there were a second referendum, and the Remain camp won, do you think that everything would settle down to how it was pre June 2016? Absolutely not. It would solve none of the underlying issues that led to the Brexit vote. All of the argument regarding Brexit that is currently being expressed by Remain would be repeated by the Brexit voters. There's no way that they will disappear and accept it. UKIP (or any other anti EU party if they cant sort themselves out) would likley make huge gains in the 2019 European parliment elections, the Tories would be more divided than ever and Brexiters would continue to believe that the dire warnings should we leave the EU were completely fictitous. And thats before we even get into the debate of how it would affect our perception of UK democracy and also our standing within the EU and teh world at large. 

That's all very well, but the promises and propaganda of the Leave campaign were nothing like the reality of Brexit either.

[Herbert Anchovy]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?

Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?

Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
 
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
 
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
 
Do you still book it?  After all, the majority have spoken.
 
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
 
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit.  What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things.  It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.

NNK,

I understand your point but your example is nothing like the reality of Brexit.

Attitudes to Brexit are stubbornly divided and while there may be a shift towards a slight majority believing that the decision to leave is wrong, it's doubtful that a second vote would provide a significant majority either way. Just imagine if there is a second vote and the anger that this would generate amongst leave voters, it's impossible to see how this could lead to calm and rationale debate! So, how would any new referendum be different from the first? All we'll get, yet again, is competing claims about competing futures.

If there were a second referendum, and the Remain camp won, do you think that everything would settle down to how it was pre June 2016? Absolutely not. It would solve none of the underlying issues that led to the Brexit vote. All of the argument regarding Brexit that is currently being expressed by Remain would be repeated by the Brexit voters. There's no way that they will disappear and accept it. UKIP (or any other anti EU party if they cant sort themselves out) would likley make huge gains in the 2019 European parliment elections, the Tories would be more divided than ever and Brexiters would continue to believe that the dire warnings should we leave the EU were completely fictitous. And thats before we even get into the debate of how it would affect our perception of UK democracy and also our standing within the EU and teh world at large. 

That's all very well, but the promises and propaganda of the Leave campaign were nothing like the reality of Brexit either.

Glynn,

A second referendum will resolve none of the country’s issues. All it will achieve is alternating which 50% of the country is pissed off with the result.

Also, both sides were guilty of utilising post Brexit forecasting to meet their own agendas (and I’m being charitable with my wording). Neither side is in a position to take the morale high ground.

[Glyn_Wigley]

We had common ground before the chuffin referendum. The ONLY reason the referendum happened was because the former PM, who is currently not even employed in a political position, wanted to appease a few Tory backbenchers. There is a really obvious, simple way to deal with Brexit - have the 2nd referendum, see that the majority DO NOT now want Brexit, then we forget about this whole mess and watch May resign immediately after.

So, 2 years after a second referendum to decide that, actually we’ve changed our minds and we don’t want to leave, can we have another to see if we’ve changed our minds again?

Almost 17.5 million people voted to leave? Are their votes invalid? Did they make a mistake? We’re they fooled into leaving? We’re they not bright enough to understand what they were voting for?

Herbert, lets imagine you want to arrange a family holiday, you usually go to the Balearic Islands, (Ibiza, Mallorca, Menorca), so you know what you get. But then you see an advert for a holiday in another country, promising the holiday of a lifetime. Sun, Sea and Sand, First Class air travel as standard and five star all inclusive accommodation; all for less than you usually pay for half board - all the family bar one says yes, that's where we want to go, it sounds fantastic.
 
The majority chose to go there so you go off to book it.
 
But when you get to the travel agents you find out that they've subbed the flights out to Ryan Air, the hotel is still under construction so now they're going to put you in a one star B&B a 30 minute bus ride from the nearest beach.
 
Do you still book it?  After all, the majority have spoken.
 
Or do you realise that it wasn't going to be what was advertised, go back home to explain it to the family and ask them to have a rethink?
 
That's pretty much where we are with Brexit.  What was promised and what can be delivered are shown to be completely different things.  It really does make sense for the country to take a step back and reconsider if this really is the right thing to do.

NNK,

I understand your point but your example is nothing like the reality of Brexit.

Attitudes to Brexit are stubbornly divided and while there may be a shift towards a slight majority believing that the decision to leave is wrong, it's doubtful that a second vote would provide a significant majority either way. Just imagine if there is a second vote and the anger that this would generate amongst leave voters, it's impossible to see how this could lead to calm and rationale debate! So, how would any new referendum be different from the first? All we'll get, yet again, is competing claims about competing futures.

If there were a second referendum, and the Remain camp won, do you think that everything would settle down to how it was pre June 2016? Absolutely not. It would solve none of the underlying issues that led to the Brexit vote. All of the argument regarding Brexit that is currently being expressed by Remain would be repeated by the Brexit voters. There's no way that they will disappear and accept it. UKIP (or any other anti EU party if they cant sort themselves out) would likley make huge gains in the 2019 European parliment elections, the Tories would be more divided than ever and Brexiters would continue to believe that the dire warnings should we leave the EU were completely fictitous. And thats before we even get into the debate of how it would affect our perception of UK democracy and also our standing within the EU and teh world at large. 

That's all very well, but the promises and propaganda of the Leave campaign were nothing like the reality of Brexit either.

Glynn,

A second referendum will resolve none of the country’s issues. All it will achieve is alternating which 50% of the country is pissed off with the result.

Also, both sides were guilty of utilising post Brexit forecasting to meet their own agendas (and I’m being charitable with my wording). Neither side is in a position to take the morale high ground.

If a second referendum stopped this country from making the biggest mistake it is ever likely to make, I'd call that resolving the biggest issue facing this country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Herbert

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.

One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.

The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.

[MachoMadness]

Well, look who's making friends in high places.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/13/nigel-farage-mueller-russia-investigation-trump-latest-jerome-corsi-claim

[Herbert Anchovy]

Herbert

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.

One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.

The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.

Billy,

Frankly, I’m sick of hearing the ‘our Lies weren’t as bad as your lies’ argument.

Yes, the leave campaign lied, no doubt about it. But remain also openly lied. Remember being told that leaving the EU will facilitate the end of Western Civilisation? Lead to war? Deliver a year long recession? As for foreign intervention, do you remember Obama telling us that Armageddon awaited us if we left? Do you think that he did it off his own back?  How about the continual intimation that anyone who voted leave was a hate filled xenophobic meat head? Lies or just mistakes?

Politicians lie, make false promises. It’s a fact and has gone on since the beginning of democracy and the EU referendum was no different.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Herbert

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.

One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.

The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.

Billy,

Frankly, I’m sick of hearing the ‘our Lies weren’t as bad as your lies’ argument.

Yes, the leave campaign lied, no doubt about it. But remain also openly lied. Remember being told that leaving the EU will facilitate the end of Western Civilisation? No Lead to war? No Deliver a year long recession? No As for foreign intervention, do you remember Obama telling us that Armageddon awaited us if we left? No Do you think that he did it off his own back?  How about the continual intimation that anyone who voted leave was a hate filled xenophobic meat head? Lies or just mistakes?

Politicians lie, make false promises. It’s a fact and has gone on since the beginning of democracy and the EU referendum was no different.

[turnbull for england]

If you decide to buy a house over the Internet because you like the look of it, then when you have the survey done it's about to fall in the sea, should you just continue regardless or revise the decision?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Herbert

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.

One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.

The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.

Billy,

Frankly, I’m sick of hearing the ‘our Lies weren’t as bad as your lies’ argument.

Yes, the leave campaign lied, no doubt about it. But remain also openly lied. Remember being told that leaving the EU will facilitate the end of Western Civilisation? Lead to war? Deliver a year long recession? As for foreign intervention, do you remember Obama telling us that Armageddon awaited us if we left? Do you think that he did it off his own back?  How about the continual intimation that anyone who voted leave was a hate filled xenophobic meat head? Lies or just mistakes?

Politicians lie, make false promises. It’s a fact and has gone on since the beginning of democracy and the EU referendum was no different.

Herbert

Tell you what. Find me examples of where the Remain campaign actually said each of those things, rather than Leave supporters painting their words that way, and I'll agree with you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well, well, well.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/13/nigel-farage-mueller-russia-investigation-trump-latest-jerome-corsi-claim?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true

This could be fun.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Herbert

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this "both sides" argument.

One side lied openly. Committed crimes. Collaborated with a hostile foreign power. Encouraged people to ignore experts and trust their own instinct.

The other side weren't flawless, but their errors pale into insignificance by comparison.

Billy,

Frankly, I’m sick of hearing the ‘our Lies weren’t as bad as your lies’ argument.

Yes, the leave campaign lied, no doubt about it. But remain also openly lied. Remember being told that leaving the EU will facilitate the end of Western Civilisation? Lead to war? Deliver a year long recession? As for foreign intervention, do you remember Obama telling us that Armageddon awaited us if we left? Do you think that he did it off his own back?  How about the continual intimation that anyone who voted leave was a hate filled xenophobic meat head? Lies or just mistakes?

Politicians lie, make false promises. It’s a fact and has gone on since the beginning of democracy and the EU referendum was no different.

Herbert

Tell you what. Find me examples of where the Remain campaign actually said each of those things, rather than Leave supporters painting their words that way, and I'll agree with you.

Billy,

Speaking about the EU vote in June 2016, Donald Tusk said:

“Why is it so dangerous? Because no one can foresee what the long-term consequences would be. “As a historian I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilisation in its entirety".

In a speech on 9th May 2016, David Cameron said:

"The serried rows of white headstones in lovingly tended Commonwealth war cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe.Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? I would never be so rash as to make that assumption."

On 23rd May 2016, George Osborne published treasury analysis in a speech that said leaving the EU would cause an immediate recession with up to 820,000 jobs lost by 2018. The report also said that sterling would fall by 12%, unemployment rise by 520,000 and average wages fall by 2.8%.

Also, I notice that Merkel has today supported the desire for the EU to have its own army. Something that the remainers said was a myth back in 2016. Another lie, or was that an error?

I won't ask you to provide evidence of the leave camp lying, because I know that they did and in some cases may have been 'worse'. However, the remainers were full of just as much shit as the leavers.

Whilst I dont support a second referendum on leaving the EU, I would support a vote on the deal that May comes back with and if it's not palatable to the UK, then we stay in the EU for now. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Herbert

So Cameron wasn't predicting war. He was highlighting the fact that the EU has been instrumental in ensuring European peace. And history shows that European peace is not a given.

Tusk was being rather overblown, but there is a context. It's been clear for years that it is Russian policy to weaken the EU and spread discord between European countries.

Regarding the economy, we effectively HAVE had a 2 year recession. Our GDP growth rate has dropped something like 2% compared to other leading countries since 2016. The reason this hasn't resulted in an out and out recession us that the rest of the world has had a mini boom while we've been unique in having a slump, so we've been isolated from the worst. Predictions of severe economic consequences after the Brexit vote weren't lies. They have been broadly correct. 

[Herbert Anchovy]

Herbert

So Cameron wasn't predicting war. He was highlighting the fact that the EU has been instrumental in ensuring European peace. And history shows that European peace is not a given.

Tusk was being rather overblown, but there is a context. It's been clear for years that it is Russian policy to weaken the EU and spread discord between European countries.

Regarding the economy, we effectively HAVE had a 2 year recession. Our GDP growth rate has dropped something like 2% compared to other leading countries since 2016. The reason this hasn't resulted in an out and out recession us that the rest of the world has had a mini boom while we've been unique in having a slump, so we've been isolated from the worst. Predictions of severe economic consequences after the Brexit vote weren't lies. They have been broadly correct.

Billy,

It’s all about perceptions isn’t it? You still disagree with me and I with you. I take one thing from a statement, and you another. Everything is seen through Brexit tinged glasses now. I suggest we move on because, apart from your views in Brexit, I like your posts on here and we ain’t going to change the mind of the other I’m sure.