Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

That's all correct.

Of course, that would leave us less well off and without a say in either the SM or CU. So it's a considerably worse situation than the status quo. But yes, much better than the May deal or no deal.

[wilts rover]

Wilts

That's all correct.

Of course, that would leave us less well off and without a say in either the SM or CU. So it's a considerably worse situation than the status quo. But yes, much better than the May deal or no deal.

Yes agreed with all that Billy. One other important point worth noting too is that there is a also a clear majority for that sort of deal (CU & close to SM) in Parliament - it would pass easily.

[Herbert Anchovy]

The more I’m seeing and reading about this the more I think we should go back to the EU and say “Even though the majority of us wanted leave and many of us don’t like you very much, we can’t get our house in order never mind prise ourselves away from you, so here’s this years £13 Billion, can we come back in please?”

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?

Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.

Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?

Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.

Fair point

Rumours have it that's what may has agreed.  Assume labour will vote for it then?

It's the big mess we all expected.  Are many of these Tories etc disagreeing with the position or lions sensing a prey?  Some of them are a joke frankly.

[idler]

The more I’m seeing and reading about this the more I think we should go back to the EU and say “Even though the majority of us wanted leave and many of us don’t like you very much, we can’t get our house in order never mind prise ourselves away from you, so here’s this years £13 Billion, can we come back in please?”

I'm not sure that most of us don't like Europeans. There are lots of Brits that I dislike more than our EU cousins.

[RedJ]

Glyn

My bet. It will not reach that far.

Either the Cabinet refuses to agree to the deal tonight, or the Brexit wing of the Tory party launches a no-confidence move against May. 

Apparently, both are happening... Cabinet agrees to the deal and JRM and his ERG move to remove her, rumoured.

[Herbert Anchovy]

The more I’m seeing and reading about this the more I think we should go back to the EU and say “Even though the majority of us wanted leave and many of us don’t like you very much, we can’t get our house in order never mind prise ourselves away from you, so here’s this years £13 Billion, can we come back in please?”

I'm not sure that most of us don't like Europeans. There are lots of Brits that I dislike more than our EU cousins.

Idler,

I didn’t say we don’t like Europeans. I said we don’t like the EU.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

On the face of it the brexiteers will hate this and I can see why.  No deal more likely than not I would think.

[Filo]

I sometimes can’t believe the sheer brassneck of the Government, it eas n’t that long ago the Maybots mantra was no deal is better than a bad deal, now apparently there are three options, a bad deal, no deal, or no brexit

[drfchound]

Hope it ends as no Brexit then.

[Boomstick]

Hope it ends as no Brexit then.

It wont. The government have a duty to uphold a democratic vote.
It will be no deal.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs.

[wilts rover]

Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?

Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.

Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?

Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.

Fair point

Rumours have it that's what may has agreed.  Assume labour will vote for it then?

It's the big mess we all expected.  Are many of these Tories etc disagreeing with the position or lions sensing a prey?  Some of them are a joke frankly.

I doubt it BFYP. What May seems to have agreed is not full CU & SM as there are different rules for GB and NI and block on state aid. Unlikely that Labour would support that but who knows.

[drfchound]

TBH I would be surprised if Labour backed any deal proposed by May, even if it was a good one.

[wilts rover]

This deal wont pass through parliament and a people's vote between no deal and remain anyone?

[Akinfenwa]

To hear of people who voted to leave the EU, and ideally still want to, so resigned to the fact that real change is not possible in Britain and would now vote differently (or not at all), I think, paints a quite depressing picture of where British politics is at. And this is not in any way a criticism of people who have come to hold that view.

So if there's any lesson to be learnt from the past two years it's that even on the rare occasion that you are presented with and vote for significant change, voting is ultimately pointless if the political class does not already support it. This increasingly out-of-touch, estranged political class are simply unwilling (or incapable) to deliver and will conspire to change as little as they can get away with. Those who already thought that voting was pointless and that politicians don't represent them yet turned out to vote for Brexit in the hope of being heard for once have ultimately been proven right.

This ought to concern everyone who isn't a cynical opportunist, regardless of Brexit stance.

During the last general election both parties committed to leaving the single market and customs union as they couldn't get away with anything less. It didn't take them long to ditch those commitments.

It seems like the current political system is not fit for purpose anymore. Absolute shite the lot of them.

[Boomstick]

No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.

Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.

[Boomstick]

And there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs.

If it's no deal, or no brexit.
It will be no deal . simple.

[RedJ]

No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.

Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.

You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.

[Boomstick]

No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.

Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.

You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.

The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.
The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.
They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is.
Simple .

[bobjimwilly]

You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.

 

[Herbert Anchovy]

To hear of people who voted to leave the EU, and ideally still want to, so resigned to the fact that real change is not possible in Britain and would now vote differently (or not at all), I think, paints a quite depressing picture of where British politics is at. And this is not in any way a criticism of people who have come to hold that view.

So if there's any lesson to be learnt from the past two years it's that even on the rare occasion that you are presented with and vote for significant change, voting is ultimately pointless if the political class does not already support it. This increasingly out-of-touch, estranged political class are simply unwilling (or incapable) to deliver and will conspire to change as little as they can get away with. Those who already thought that voting was pointless and that politicians don't represent them yet turned out to vote for Brexit in the hope of being heard for once have ultimately been proven right.

This ought to concern everyone who isn't a cynical opportunist, regardless of Brexit stance.

During the last general election both parties committed to leaving the single market and customs union as they couldn't get away with anything less. It didn't take them long to ditch those commitments.

It seems like the current political system is not fit for purpose anymore. Absolute shite the lot of them.

Great post

[RedJ]

No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.

Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.

You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.

The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.
The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.
They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is.
Simple .

The government have no commitment to carry out anything based on an advisory referendum.

Arguably, they should, but they have no commitment, no obligation, to do so. Parliament can act of its own accord if it so wishes. Isn't it Parliamentary sovereignty that the Brexiteers were so keen on getting back?

[BillyStubbsTears]

And there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs.

If it's no deal, or no brexit.
It will be no deal . simple.

That would be a thoroughly democratic outcome. Go for a solution that only about 1/4 of the population supports.


Will of the People, eh?

[Glyn_Wigley]

And there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs.

If it's no deal, or no brexit.
It will be no deal . simple.

That would be a thoroughly democratic outcome. Go for a solution that only about 1/4 of the population supports.


Will of the People, eh?

'Triumph Of The Will Of The People'. What a shame Leni's not still around to film it.

[Herbert Anchovy]

No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.

Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.

You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.

The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.
The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.
They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is.
Simple .

The government have no commitment to carry out anything based on an advisory referendum.

Arguably, they should, but they have no commitment, no obligation, to do so. Parliament can act of its own accord if it so wishes. Isn't it Parliamentary sovereignty that the Brexiteers were so keen on getting back?

I feel that referendums should be used in an advisory context only. However, in the Goverments leaflet sent to all households prior to the vote, the following text was included:

“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”

Seems quite clear to me. No mention of an advisory referendum.

[RedJ]

No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.

Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.

You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.

The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.
The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.
They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is.
Simple .

The government have no commitment to carry out anything based on an advisory referendum.

Arguably, they should, but they have no commitment, no obligation, to do so. Parliament can act of its own accord if it so wishes. Isn't it Parliamentary sovereignty that the Brexiteers were so keen on getting back?

I feel that referendums should be used in an advisory context only. However, in the Goverments leaflet sent to all households prior to the vote, the following text was included:

“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”

Seems quite clear to me. No mention of an advisory referendum.

No mention of it. And I'm not saying the government absolutely shouldn't, even if I think it would be suicidal to do so, but they have no obligation to do so legally.

I'm just being a pedantic bas**rd really.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No, you're not being pedantic Red. The Govt had no authority to make such an undertaking. That is not how Parliament works. Parliament has absolute sovereignty and can make whatever decision it likes. And, critically, no Parliament is beholden to uphold ANYTHING that a previous Parliament has decided.

Anyone saying that Parliament has a duty or an obligation to do anything simply doesn't understand how our Govt works.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I was thinking earlier today, after a few posts that seemed based on the idea that there is "an EU" and "a UK" and that the former is hell bent on controlling the latter.

I was wondering where that bizarre idea comes from.

This might help explain it.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/