Brexit Negotiations

[Boomstick]

No, you're not being pedantic Red. The Govt had no authority to make such an undertaking. That is not how Parliament works. Parliament has absolute sovereignty and can make whatever decision it likes. And, critically, no Parliament is beholden to uphold ANYTHING that a previous Parliament has decided.

Anyone saying that Parliament has a duty or an obligation to do anything simply doesn't understand how our Govt works.

The people gave the government authority to carry it out. As per the the manifesto promise, and the promise in the referendum literature.
Somehow I think you wouldn't be saying this, if the result was what you wanted

[BillyStubbsTears]

That's an odd conclusion to come to BS.
Do you think my understanding of how British government works changes with the situation?

[Glyn_Wigley]

WTF...Raab's resigned over the deal he's supposed to have negotiated!

[Not Now Kato]

You can download the draft agreement in .pdf format here....
 
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/files/draft-agreement-withdrawal-united-kingdom-great-britain-and-northern-ireland-european-union-and-european-atomic-energy-community-agreed-negotiators-level-14-november-2018_en
 
It makes very interesting reading.

[RedJ]

What an absolute shit show this entire process has been and today it's sent the Cabinet into meltdown.

[Herbert Anchovy]

No, you're not being pedantic Red. The Govt had no authority to make such an undertaking. That is not how Parliament works. Parliament has absolute sovereignty and can make whatever decision it likes. And, critically, no Parliament is beholden to uphold ANYTHING that a previous Parliament has decided.

Anyone saying that Parliament has a duty or an obligation to do anything simply doesn't understand how our Govt works.
[/quote

Have you ever thought just why the referendum wasn’t promoted as advisory until after the vote? Could it be that the result wasn’t what the Government wanted?

[Herbert Anchovy]

I was thinking earlier today, after a few posts that seemed based on the idea that there is "an EU" and "a UK" and that the former is hell bent on controlling the latter.

I was wondering where that bizarre idea comes from.

This might help explain it.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

Even by your constant defence of all things EU Billy, that’s an incredibly lop sided and unbalanced view. Do we really need to list areas where the EU does control decision making in the U.K.?

[Herbert Anchovy]

See my post from earlier this week. A second referendum is even more likely now and that’s going to create even bigger problems. Remainers really do need to be careful what they wish for...

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA
I couldn't possibly claim to know why Cameron's Govt did anything it did.

But that's irrelevant.

The FACT is that we are not a plebiscitary democracy, we are a Parliamentary democracy.

Parliament (not Government) can CHOOSE to be bound by a referendum. Or it can choose to ignore it. And because one Parliament chooses either way, that doesn't bind any later Parliament to stick to that.

It's how we do things.

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

I think you've missed the point of that website.

It's not a lopsided anything.

It's a factual response to 25 yearsworth of exaggerations and lies from the UK Press.

[GazLaz]

HA
I couldn't possibly claim to know why Cameron's Govt did anything it did.

But that's irrelevant.

The FACT is that we are not a plebiscitary democracy, we are a Parliamentary democracy.

Parliament (not Government) can CHOOSE to be bound by a referendum. Or it can choose to ignore it. And because one Parliament chooses either way, that doesn't bind any later Parliament to stick to that.

It's how we do things.

Cameron thought Remain was an absolute certainty to win and didn’t even give the consequence of leaving a thought.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I wonder if May has any grasp left on reality.

She stood in front of the nation last night and told us that the Cabinet had agreed this deal. And within 14 hours, the Brexit Secretary resigns. Did she have not even the slightest inkling last night that Raab was a tad dischuffed?

I'll give the woman her due. She's got no ego. Anyone with an ego would be unable to function given the embarrassments she's endured over this last couple of years. But in the interests of humanity, it's time for someone to put her out of her misery.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Gaz

Cameron thought a lot of things that didn't care well when faced with reality.

That's why he's in the too 3 worst PMs we've had at least since the 1920s.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Can you begin to imagine how f**king useless we are looking in the eyes of the rest of the world?

We have bumbled into this without any comprehension of what we wanted from it, still less how to achieve that.

We have a PM who made agreements with the EU last year then immediately told everyone in the Tory party that she hadn't. A Brexit Secretary who negotiates a deal then resigns because he doesn't agree with it.

Who the f**k is ever going to take us seriously in any future negotiations about anything?

[Boomstick]

That's an odd conclusion to come to BS.
Do you think my understanding of how British government works changes with the situation?

No, not your understanding. Just what you moan about .

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think you need to re-read what we've been discussing.

I wasn't moaning about anything. Just correcting a misunderstanding.

[Filo]

WTF...Raab's resigned over the deal he's supposed to have negotiated!

You could n’t make some of this shit up 😀😀😀

[drfchound]

At the end of all this slagging off it should be remembered that it was brought on by the people who voted to leave.
It was never going to be easy for whoever had to sort out the deal to do so.
Things have come up that none us us ever even considered.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound

Are you asking us to have sympathy for the Tory Govt that tipped us into this clusterf**k?

And what things have cropped up that were never thought of?

The core problem that has led to this meltdown in the Tory party is Ireland. I've been saying that was insoluble since before the vote.

[Boomstick]

See my post from earlier this week. A second referendum is even more likely now and that’s going to create even bigger problems. Remainers really do need to be careful what they wish for...

A 2nd refferendum would be worse than a no deal.
Christ, it could even be civil war

[Boomstick]

I think you need to re-read what we've been discussing.

I wasn't moaning about anything. Just correcting a misunderstanding.

Ok then, what you choose to discuss

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah.

Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.

[Boomstick]

Gaz

Cameron thought a lot of things that didn't care well when faced with reality.

That's why he's in the too 3 worst PMs we've had at least since the 1920s.

In your opinion

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's not a pendantic debate BS.

Understanding how our Govt works is crucial if you're to understand how you get played.

[drfchound]

Hound

Are you asking us to have sympathy for the Tory Govt that tipped us into this clusterf**k?

And what things have cropped up that were never thought of?

The core problem that has led to this meltdown in the Tory party is Ireland. I've been saying that was insoluble since before the vote.

BST

No I am not suggesting sympathy for anyone.
My views would be the same if Labour were in power.
I am simply saying that whoever was in charge would be in a position where is is virtually impossible to sort out the mess.

Did any of the leavers have thoughts about the Irish border when they cast their vote?
I very much doubt it.

The big issue before the vote was”having control of our borders” which was generally about stopping wholesale immigration and of course the lies spread by Boris and Farage and their crew.

Do you think that a Labour government would have done better than the current one.

[Boomstick]

Yeah.

Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.

Perhaps after a 2nd referrendum, we could have a 3rd and call it best of 3 ?

[Not Now Kato]

Yeah.

Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.

Perhaps after a 2nd referrendum, we could have a 3rd and call it best of 3 ?

Erm, we've already had 3 Boomstick, please keep up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well, if you judge PMs by their judgement and on the effect they have on our appearance to the rest of the world, you're going to struggle to find 3 worse ones than Eden, Cameron and May.

And that's before you go into the unmitigated disaster that was Austerity.

Cameron demonstrated that he didn't understand basic undergraduate-level economics.

He was unable to keep the lid on the civil war that has engulfed the Tory party for the past 2 generations.

And in a bid to stop that war, he had the most monumentally wrong headed domestic decision of any PM I can think of. (And I'm not saying that because the side I supported lost. I'm saying that because the side HE supported lost. His decision to hold a referendum led directly to the end of his tenure.)

[drfchound]

Well, if you judge PMs by their judgement and on the effect they have on our appearance to the rest of the world, you're going to struggle to find 3 worse ones than Eden, Cameron and May.

And that's before you go into the unmitigated disaster that was Austerity.

Cameron demonstrated that he didn't understand basic undergraduate-level economics.

He was unable to keep the lid on the civil war that has engulfed the Tory party for the past 2 generations.

And in a bid to stop that war, he had the most monumentally wrong headed domestic decision of any PM I can think of. (And I'm not saying that because the side I supported lost. I'm saying that because the side HE supported lost. His decision to hold a referendum led directly to the end of his tenure.)

BST,   Is that a response to my last post, also addressed to you?

[Boomstick]

Yeah.

Imagine. We ask people to vote and the ones who lose start shooting people.

Perhaps after a 2nd referrendum, we could have a 3rd and call it best of 3 ?

Erm, we've already had 3 Boomstick, please keep up.

No we haven't ..... ?