Brexit Negotiations

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, as I said, the stories were far more in the mainstream and it wasn't Richard Corbett's article that I got them from. Regarding Turkey, I don't know! Let's say 2030 ish!

What about the pension threats?

What about the lie about there being about the same amount of Immigrants living in the UK as British citizens living in Europe?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

I don't know about your pension fund. Mine's dropped by about 6% this year while the world outside the UK has been in a boom. Same for the savings policies I have for my kids. The entire last year's worth of monthly investments has gone up in smoke and they are worth less than they were this time last year. I sincerely hope you have been more fortunate.

As for this "lie" you keep going on about, I'd have liked to have seen the source that Richard Corbett's was quoting. Forgive me if I don't take as Gospel the opinions of a UKIP MEP on that subject. Given the fact that his leader at the time was barely on nodding terms with the truth, unveiled doctored posters of migrants on the same day that an MP had her head blown off by a far-right terrorist shouting "This is for Britain. Keep Britain Independent!" and ran a campaign directly funded by the Kremlin, you'll forgive me if I treat claims from anyone in that party with a healthy degree of scepticism.

[wilts rover]

Slightly off topic but very relevant all the same.

This evening the DUP abstained on a vote on a Labour amendment to the Finance Bill (Chuka Umunna's call to have the Brexit deal assesments published) thus breaking their confidence and supply arrangement with the Tories.

From tonight we no longer have a government that is able to govern.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Your point about pensions has spurred a bit of digging around BB.

The link between pensions and a country's stock market is not perfect because investors can look to other markets. But it is interesting nevertheless to look at stock market performances round the world over the past few years.

Since it started to become clear in late 2016 that May was ruling out a close relationship with Europe, the Dow Jones has risen by about 25%.

The Nikkei  has risen by about 10%

The Dax has risen by

The DAX has risen by about 6%

The Hang Seng has risen by about 15%.

The FTSE100 is pretty much exactly where it was back then.

Go figure.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, what doctored posters?

Are you insinuating that the poster put up on the same day Jo Cox was murdered was disrespectful to the event? 

[Bentley Bullet]

You see Billy, this is where people perceive different things to suit their own agendas. I never thought that poster was a portrait of immigrants queueing up to get into the UK. I thought it was merely an example of what could happen if we didn't control our borders. The bullshit about suggestions of racism almost made me change my vote to leave.

Are you saying the murder of Jo Cox took place because of that poster?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

It's difficult to have a grown up discussion if you're going to process what I said and come up with a response like that.

I shouldn't really need to answer that. And I think when you have a think about it, you'll agree.

[Bentley Bullet]

OK BST, I've removed the last paragraph which I think is the bit that offended you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Thank you. It didn't offend me personally. It's just that it always offends me when intentions get misread.

Regarding your other points, no, of course I'm not saying that specific poster led to Jo Cox's murder. Nothing is as black and white as that.

I'm saying that Farage and UKIP politically weaponised immigration for many years, and history shows us that the consequences of doing that are rarely peaceful. People get agitated. Some people do very unpleasant things.

And I'm saying that, rather than reflect on that after that murder, Farage, Banks and the Leave campaign continued to pour propaganda into the social media feeds of people who they had identified as susceptible to having their head turned by migration stories. I'm saying that is morally disgraceful.

[drfchound]

Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.

The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.

Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.

Glyn to respond please.

[SydneyRover]

You see Billy, this is where people perceive different things to suit their own agendas. I never thought that poster was a portrait of immigrants queueing up to get into the UK. I thought it was merely an example of what could happen if we didn't control our borders. The bullshit about suggestions of racism almost made me change my vote to leave.

And Are you saying the murder of Jo Cox took place because of that poster?

I thought it was a the queue for a Justin Bieber concert, turns out I was wrong.

[Bentley Bullet]

Nothing unusual there then!

[SydneyRover]

Nothing unusual there then!

I'm a member of a large club bb

[Bentley Bullet]

Nothing unusual there then!

I'm a member of a large club bb

Aye, Justin Bieber has a decent following.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.

The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.

Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.

Glyn to respond please.

The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.

[Donnywolf]

... AND "they" are already discussing not having too many options of "Leave" on the Ballot Paper so as not to split that Vote giving Remain an easier chance to triumph ( COYR - subtle maybe ?)

[drfchound]

Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.

The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.

Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.

Glyn to respond please.

The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.

Ok, thanks.
However, if the politicians themselves can’t agree on which is the best option how can the less well informed public make a decision on which is best.

[bobjimwilly]

Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?

[Donnywolf]

Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.

The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.

Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.

Glyn to respond please.

The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.

Ok, thanks.
However, if the politicians themselves can’t agree on which is the best option how can the less well informed public make a decision on which is best.

Which was my major gripe when the Cameron Government caved in a called a Ref in the first place.

None of the factions seemed to be operating on facts - merely guessing / estimating / making assumptions / lying / and cheating AND i mean both ways round

So how did they expect people like me to make an informed decision when they were supposedly elected to take the decisions and they have armies of advisors behind the scenes to help them. Instead they took the easy way out and passed the decision to us - and furthermore did not put a Tariff on the Result

I am sure they could have carried a Motion in Parliament to say for The Referendum Result to be binding either way there needs to be a Majority reached by those Voting of (lets say) 60 % or 55%. They failed to do that either and we have therefore fallen into the most devisive and Politically messy period I can ever remember

[Glyn_Wigley]

Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.

The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.

Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.

Glyn to respond please.

The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.

Ok, thanks.
However, if the politicians themselves can’t agree on which is the best option how can the less well informed public make a decision on which is best.

Ignorance of the electorate is no objection to the validity of the 2016 vote though, is it?

[Boomstick]

Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?

Better than remaining . Worse than a no deal.

[drfchound]

Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.

The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.

Glyn, isn’t that where we are now though.
We currently have leave and various groups are trying to argue their case for a specific version of leave.
No difference as far as I can see.
So back to my question, what would be the difference if a second vote still came up with leave.

Glyn to respond please.

The difference is that the public would be able to say which of the versions of Leave being argued about (or otherwise) they want. Because the question would the different and therefore it isn't the same referendum being run.

Ok, thanks.
However, if the politicians themselves can’t agree on which is the best option how can the less well informed public make a decision on which is best.

Ignorance of the electorate is no objection to the validity of the 2016 vote though, is it?

No of course not, but I see that you are avoiding answering the questions.

Are you indeed a politician.

[Bentley Bullet]

Anybody would think that only ignorant people voted to leave. I was ignorant and voted remain!

[RedJ]

Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?

Better than remaining . Worse than a no deal.

lol

[BillyStubbsTears]

Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?

Better than remaining . Worse than a no deal.

Boomstick.

John Redwood, who is as passionate an advocate for a Hard Brexit as you will find, accepted on Any Questions on R4 last week that a no deal Brexit would lead to a 7.5% reduction in GDP compared to the alternative of remaining. This will be hard wired into the UK economy permanently.

So tell us. What are the benefits of the No Deal that would balance this loss of national income?

Bear in mind that the 1980-1 recession involved a loss of GDP of about 2% FOR ONE YEAR and that lead to a increase in unemployment of about 2 million which took the rest of the decade to bring down. And the recession of 2008 involved a similar fall in GDP for one year and that led to an increase in unemployment of about 1million and a decade long stagnation of wages.

What are the upsides of No Deal that counterbalance the sort of economic carnage that would come with a 7.5% reduction in GDP?

[Axholme Lion]

One benefit would be to sit back and watch serious harm come to the German car industry.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Brilliant.

Set fire to your house and take pleasure from the fact that your neighbour coughs a bit on the smoke.

[Boomstick]

Does anyone, anywhere, think that May's deal is better than staying in the EU? Anyone?

Better than remaining . Worse than a no deal.

Boomstick.

John Redwood, who is as passionate an advocate for a Hard Brexit as you will find, accepted on Any Questions on R4 last week that a no deal Brexit would lead to a 7.5% reduction in GDP compared to the alternative of remaining. This will be hard wired into the UK economy permanently.

So tell us. What are the benefits of the No Deal that would balance this loss of national income?

Bear in mind that the 1980-1 recession involved a loss of GDP of about 2% FOR ONE YEAR and that lead to a increase in unemployment of about 2 million which took the rest of the decade to bring down. And the recession of 2008 involved a similar fall in GDP for one year and that led to an increase in unemployment of about 1million and a decade long stagnation of wages.

What are the upsides of No Deal that counterbalance the sort of economic carnage that would come with a 7.5% reduction in GDP?

I care less for the economic consequences, than I do for the positive impact regaining British sovereignty will have, and the positive impact reduced immigration will have.
Afterall, it will impact big business and banks a hell of alot more than us folks in South Yorkshire. As a lefty I thought that would resonate with you.
Or perhaps as I suspect, your using the weak economic argument as a way of arguing your ideological beliefs. 

[Boomstick]

Brilliant.

Set fire to your house and take pleasure from the fact that your neighbour coughs a bit on the smoke.

More like, we would be the ones that coughed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick

You really haven't got a clue have you? I don't know where you get this comic book concept of what people on the Left believe, but it is infantile in the extreme.

And a weak economic argument? You reckon the projected loss of £150bn economic output every single year is a weak case? You reckon it won't affect South Yorkshire? You are away with the fairies man. South Yorkshire and the post-industrial North will be the first regions to be hit and will be hit harder and for longer than anywhere else. Just as we have been in every economic slump in living memory.

Where do you think our jobs and our livings come from? Why do you think they would be protected from the sort of economic hit that usually only comes from losing a major war?