Brexit deal

[IDM]

It’s really simple..

The electorate voted to leave mainly, I believe, in principle rather than in practical terms..

Now almost 3 years later we find that leaving us actually impractical, on principle or not.

Therefore the situation is far different now than it was the day before referendum.

And I think I am repeating myself too, but how is it undemocratic to have another vote, whereas it is seen as perfectly democratic for parliament to vote several times on the same thing.?

[SydneyRover]

It’s really simple..

The electorate voted to leave mainly, I believe, in principle rather than in practical terms..

Now almost 3 years later we find that leaving us actually impractical, on principle or not.

Therefore the situation is far different now than it was the day before referendum.

And I think I am repeating myself too, but how is it undemocratic to have another vote, whereas it is seen as perfectly democratic for parliament to vote several times on the same thing.?

Democracy is optional depending whether you want to support a position of a corrupt vote on not, apparently.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

If you have a look at the map it is fairly clear that those not voting to revoke A50 are from areas that were once the industrial areas of Britain where you had a job for life and you knew what the future held for you more or less (usually less) it's these areas that are suffering from a lack of investment and lack of interest from their own government over the years and it's not surprising that this neglect has led to resentment and a protest vote against the government, less than 3 in 100 have voted in Doncaster North, Hodge Hill in the Black Country has only just over 2 in 100 voting, whereas in areas of affluence the vote can get up to around 27%. I won't try and analise the map further as the information is not there but it paints a story of a divided Britain and if one thing is clear is that if you want to lock-in for perpetuity this unfair division of the nations spoils then Brexit is the way to do it.

 6,069,375 signatures

[Bentley Bullet]

Revoking a public democratic vote before it has been carried and then replacing it with another vote in the name of democracy will set a precedent for future sore losers to demand revotes.

Leaving is proving to be impractical because of the way it has been handled by people in power taking undemocratic liberties in attempts to make it fail, and there could be repercussions of greater proportions than many of us think if we have a revote.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Let's just say we have another vote, same question.  The big holding point for many is that remain would win, which it may well.  But if it didn't what would those who call for it so much want to happen then?  This is something I have not seen anyone discuss.....

On the same token as someone who favoured leave last time around, if I were to vote remain in another referendum there would for me have to be some change, not just remain as we are.  Cameron was some of the way there last time around but there needs to be a little bit more (and by saying that in a negotiation we should give something to the EU in return for something back it cannot be a one way street).

[IDM]

BB, the longer the issue remains open the less and less the “sore loser” argument holds water..  sure, just following the referendum that could be said, but almost 3 years later and possibly even longer, the background situation is surely different to when the first vote happened.?

BYFP, for a second referendum surely this time the vote would actually have some definition of what leaving would mean ie agree with parliament and the EU - therefore if leave were to win again but on a much more defined outcome, then many more remainers IMHO would accept with good grace or even vote leave as well..

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BYFP, for a second referendum surely this time the vote would actually have some definition of what leaving would mean ie agree with parliament and the EU - therefore if leave were to win again but on a much more defined outcome, then many more remainers IMHO would accept with good grace or even vote leave as well..

I take your point and don't disagree that should be the case.  Nearly 3 years on and we still don't actually know what it means nor are we much further on, the point only works if politicians can get their bloody act together (by that I mean the government/tories mainly, most parties are fairly clear right now just the bloody Tories that can't be consistent).

[Bentley Bullet]

IDM, of course, this referendum is different from usual electoral votes because of the time it is taking to implement. Usual electoral votes are carried out instantly. Imagine if it took 3 years for a new election winning party to take actually take over? What sort of scandal stories would appear in the media, not least by sore losers?

People in this thread talk about 'grown-up' politics, but some people use that term as a disguise for what is basically them being sore losers.

[SydneyRover]

Revoking a public democratic vote before it has been carried and then replacing it with another vote in the name of democracy will set a precedent for future sore losers to demand revotes.

Leaving is proving to be impractical because of the way it has been handled by people in power taking undemocratic liberties in attempts to make it fail, and there could be repercussions of greater proportions than many of us think if we have a revote.

Maybe bb if we didn't have the most incompetent, selfish government on the planet maybe they could have understood the stupidity and impossibility of the vote along with the result and then admitted what was proposed was never going to happen, take this message to the people and then way back then attempt to resolve it in a bi-partisan way. Now it appears the only thing this government is interested in is self survival. Who in their right or any other mind would vote for this crew ever again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm genuinely fascinated by these folk who are horrified about the threat to our democracy that having a vote would entail. But couldn't give two shits about criminal activity, Kremlin money and targeted lies fed silently into people's social media, where they couldn't be challenged.

Strange priorities...

[Bentley Bullet]

SR. Now is probably the best chance ever for this government to win another term. The best endorsement they can give themselves is to send a poster to every household with a picture of Corbyn and Abbott on it.

[SydneyRover]

SR. Now is probably the best chance ever for this government to win another term. The best endorsement they can give themselves is to send a poster to every household with a picture of Corbyn and Abbott on it.

Are you telling me you would vote for a party with Johnson, Mogg, May, Fox .............................. etc, a party that has aligned itself with the UDP, has cost Britain 180 billion, imposed Austerity on the masses while reducing taxes for the rich, sold off the Royal Mail and allowed selected buyers to make windfalll profits, has perpetuated racist programs again British subjects ............

[Bentley Bullet]

If it was just a choice of the two I'd vote Conservative. I would never, ever vote for a party that has Diane Abbott in it. That in itself describes to me how out of touch Corbyn is so I wouldn't vote for a party with him in it either.

[SydneyRover]

If it was just a choice of the two I'd vote Conservative. I would never, ever vote for a party that has Diane Abbott in it. That in itself describes to me how out of touch Corbyn is so I wouldn't vote for a party with him in it either.

Sounds like there mat be a bit of jealousy there bb

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

If it was just a choice of the two I'd vote Conservative. I would never, ever vote for a party that has Diane Abbott in it. That in itself describes to me how out of touch Corbyn is so I wouldn't vote for a party with him in it either.

Thankfully it isn't a choice neither major party would deally get my vote right now but then I'm struggling to think who would.

[Bentley Bullet]

If it was just a choice of the two I'd vote Conservative. I would never, ever vote for a party that has Diane Abbott in it. That in itself describes to me how out of touch Corbyn is so I wouldn't vote for a party with him in it either.

Thankfully it isn't a choice neither major party would deally get my vote right now but then I'm struggling to think who would.

Exactly

[SydneyRover]

It looks like Hunt is trying to open the negotiations to some real options, if he doesn't be careful they'll make him the next PM.

Hunt implies government open to customs union compromise, saying 'big red lines' should not apply in talks with Labour

At the weekend Philip Hammond, the chancellor, said that there were “no red lines” for the government in its talks with Labour aimed at finding a Brexit compromise. This morning, in a doorstep on his arrival at the EU foreign affairs council, Jeremy Hunt, the foreign secretary, said more or less exactly the same thing. In normal circumstances cabinet ministers adopting the same line would not count as news. But cabinet discipline is now so threadbare that it starts to become interesting. For Hammond, perhaps the cabinet’s leading pro-European, to say “no red lines”, implying he is open to a customs union, is not a surprise. But for Hunt, a remain-voter who is now reinventing himself as a Brexiter, to say the same thing is a bit more noteworthy.

looks like they are preparing the ground to let down the hard brexiters gently, if they decide to stay in the customs union and a few other odds and ends will you demand another vote bb

[Bentley Bullet]

If it was just a choice of the two I'd vote Conservative. I would never, ever vote for a party that has Diane Abbott in it. That in itself describes to me how out of touch Corbyn is so I wouldn't vote for a party with him in it either.

Sounds like there mat be a bit of jealousy there bb

Siderney, carry on being a bit of a prat and I'll stop wasting my time responding to you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And THIS is why intelligent people like Peter Oborne are re-thi king their support for Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47652280

What sensible country would CHOOSE to put itself through that?

f**king insanity, brought on by juvenile obsessions with the EU as some sort of existential threat.

[SydneyRover]

If it was just a choice of the two I'd vote Conservative. I would never, ever vote for a party that has Diane Abbott in it. That in itself describes to me how out of touch Corbyn is so I wouldn't vote for a party with him in it either.

Sounds like there mat be a bit of jealousy there bb

Siderney, carry on being a bit of a prat and I'll stop wasting my time responding to you.

As you wish bb, you're not exactly renowned for giving straight answers, but for every person that makes mistakes in non-government parties there are, remind me how many ministers that have resigned and or made fools of themselves which is the only possible reason Grayling still has a job. As for JC I probably would not vote for him and he would probably have to be replaced unless he supports a confirmatory parliamentary vote on whatever is decided.

[IDM]

I think I have voted in the general elections probably only twice, ever.  Once because it was the first time I could, after turning 18, and possibly last time..  I have little faith in any of the main parties to be honest, and I struggle to choose who to vote for.

As long as voting isn’t mandatory, choosing not to vote doesn’t mean I can’t then comment on the failings of government.

Many non-voters will choose that way as a protest, and the parties should be appealing to win those votes..

Even so, we get another choice every 5 years maximum..

[IDM]

I can’t see the story any longer but I am sure I read on the BBC website over the weekend that the PM said it could be a “stark choice” between (her) deal and no brexit..

Isn’t that what we should have had in the referendum.? 

[SydneyRover]

I think I have voted in the general elections probably only twice, ever.  Once because it was the first time I could, after turning 18, and possibly last time..  I have little faith in any of the main parties to be honest, and I struggle to choose who to vote for.

As long as voting isn’t mandatory, choosing not to vote doesn’t mean I can’t then comment on the failings of government.

Many non-voters will choose that way as a protest, and the parties should be appealing to win those votes..

Even so, we get another choice every 5 years maximum..

Unfortunately only those that you tell that you are protesting and why will know, the very politicians you are protesting against will not have a clue. Your non-vote may be put down to a whole series of reasons non of which may be accurate.

[IDM]

But the parties should be looking at why people don’t vote.. there’s a vast amount of votes out there not being used which could make a huge difference..

[deebee]

If you look at the recent By-election in Wales only 37% bothered to vote, although labour retained the seat their majority fell by 3,000 from about 5.000 to just under 2,000. Corbyn declares this a victory based on spending cuts. If the same swing happens at the next election he can say bye, bye to this seat. Who will he blame then?

[Bentley Bullet]

I reckon some people won't vote in protest at the desire for some to have the Brexit vote revoked.

I see rivers of blank ballot papers.

[Axholme Lion]

Watched a cracking film yesterday, 'San Demetrio London'. Proper guts and spirit those lads had. Good job this true story wasn't today because this generation would have given up because it was to hard.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Watched a cracking film yesterday, 'San Demetrio London'. Proper guts and spirit those lads had. Good job this true story wasn't today because this generation would have given up because it was to hard.

Is today's Merchant Navy really that bad?

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL
And THAT sums up the idiocy of quite a few Brexit supporters I've had the misfortune of interacting with.

Let's chuck ourselves into the problems and privations that you have no option but to face in a war because...Well because what? It feels like there are a lot of fragile egos around who feel themselves to be less of a man because they never had to face down an existential enemy in battle.

It's beyond stupid and beyond pathetic. Fortunately, there are far too many grown ups in the country to allow us to be tipped into this sort of juvenile fantasy land.

[Axholme Lion]

AL
And THAT sums up the idiocy of quite a few Brexit supporters I've had the misfortune of interacting with.

Let's chuck ourselves into the problems and privations that you have no option but to face in a war because...Well because what? It feels like there are a lot of fragile egos around who feel themselves to be less of a man because they never had to face down an existential enemy in battle.

It's beyond stupid and beyond pathetic. Fortunately, there are far too many grown ups in the country to allow us to be tipped into this sort of juvenile fantasy land.

This is an existential threat to our nation. Do we go forward as a free nation or allow ourselves to become part of a United States of Europe which is not what we signed up for in the seventies?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Nobody has signed up to No Deal either.