Coronavirus

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

It's inevitable that there will be an inquiry. You don't have something as big as this and not have a formal process of  examining decisions that were made.

Ideally, given that we have the fourth worst death rate in the world, you'd hope that there's be some assessment of previous decisions going on now, while we are still in a position to influence where we go from here. But when pressed on that issue last week, Jenrick repeatedly said this was not the time to be judging past decisions.

[selby]

We vaccinated nearly 600,000 people yesterday a record in the country, the time to look back will come in the future, for now the efforts of the government should be to replicate these numbers time after time and get on top of the situation as quickly as possible and stop the quibbling  and sniping for political point scoring which has detracted from the job in hand long enough.
  Politicians not in power have had too much publicity and the opportunity to undermine the government for too long on both the Brexit and Covid situations to the benefit of no one.
 In both cases the people of the country have voted for the government to govern on their behalf and it has been like battling a fifth column ever since.
  Billy not the figures given on the radio, cases in New York twice the figures of other States that have had no lock down, I am not advocating lock down or no lock down by the way personally, as I am in no way qualified to, just stating what an American who was broadcasting said, and have no reason to dis believe. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

If you insist on listening to radio stations with a right wing political agenda to peddle, you'll get peddled a right wing political agenda.

Yes New York has had a bad outcome overall. It was hammered in March last year. Since then, it has done WAY better than Texas and Florida.

In terms of both deaths and cases from last spring onwards, Texas and Florida far outstrip New York. Why does it matter that I measure it from last spring? Because Texas and Florida were lucky that they weren't hit back in March. They dodged that bullet. That won them time. But they didn't learn the lesson. They were poster States for the anti-lockdown argument that right wing media have pushed relentlessly. And now your radio station is deliberately misrepresenting the situation to reinforce the message to you.

[drfchound]

Hound.

It's inevitable that there will be an inquiry. You don't have something as big as this and not have a formal process of  examining decisions that were made.

Ideally, given that we have the fourth worst death rate in the world, you'd hope that there's be some assessment of previous decisions going on now, while we are still in a position to influence where we go from here. But when pressed on that issue last week, Jenrick repeatedly said this was not the time to be judging past decisions.

BST, I know it is inevitable that there will be an inquiry.

[selby]

  Billy, figures given NY 246 per 100,000 Texas 126 not arguing what an American said on the radio discussing whether lock downs worked or not, the conclusion nobody really knew. If they don't know I certainly don't I am just happy to go along with what I am told to do to look after myself.
  Whatever you say I am not that bothered about listening to the BBC.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

Yes. Those numbers of deaths per 100,000 are broadly correct (I've just looked up 224 and 128). But as I said, if those are presented with no context, you are deliberately being misled.

75% of the New York deaths occurred by July last year because they were the first place in the USA to be hammered by the first wave. Just like Italy in Europe, they were unprepared.

After that, it was bleeding obvious that rapid and effective lockdowns were needed when outbreaks happened.

Texas and most of the South missed the first wave. By the start of Summer, Texas's figure for deaths per 100k was less than 10. New York's was over 160.

Since then, we've been in a period where we have known what works and what doesn't. Texas has fought tooth and nail against lockdowns. And the death figures per 100k since last summer are around 115 for Texas and 60 for New York.

Talk Radio will never, ever tell you that. Because they exist to further a right wing political agenda. Texas is a right wing state. New York more liberal.

And none of that is from the BBC. I got the figures myself in a couple of mins from the Worldometer COVID site.

[selby]

  I am not surprised you didn't get the figures from the BBC as they don't have discussions giving both sides anymore Billy, at least talkradio give both sides to an argument.
 But hey you and your buddies wouldn't know as you don't listen to it, just say it is right wing drivel, when you really don't know, or are you a secret listener and don't admit it.

[drfchound]

But we do get lots of Guardian links.
Of course they aren’t biased though.......are they?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

Honestly? Julia Hartley-Brewer and Mike Graham give both sides to a story?

You know the first law of propaganda? The mark mustn't know they're are being led by the nose.

[wilts rover]

  I am not surprised you didn't get the figures from the BBC as they don't have discussions giving both sides anymore Billy, at least talkradio give both sides to an argument.
 But hey you and your buddies wouldn't know as you don't listen to it, just say it is right wing drivel, when you really don't know, or are you a secret listener and don't admit it.

That's interesting Selby, I didn't know that as I don't listen to TalkRadio. I know they have right-wing presenters like Julia Hartley-Brewer, Mike Graham, Mike Parry, James Whale and Mark Dolan but that's all I know about them. Who are their left-wing presenters that give both sides to the argument?

[Bentley Bullet]

What left-wing presenters give both sides of the argument? 

[ravenrover]

While doing a job at home this afternoon I was listening to Radio Sheffield.
They had a bloke on who I think said he was the former head of public prosecutions.
He had lost his brother to COVID last April.
He is lobbying for an inquiry into the governments handling of the COVID situation.
He said that he doesn’t have any suggestions of what the eventual outcome might be.

See my post #9752 for details

[drfchound]

While doing a job at home this afternoon I was listening to Radio Sheffield.
They had a bloke on who I think said he was the former head of public prosecutions.
He had lost his brother to COVID last April.
He is lobbying for an inquiry into the governments handling of the COVID situation.
He said that he doesn’t have any suggestions of what the eventual outcome might be.

See my post #9752 for details

Ah cheers Raven.
That’s the fella.
Sorry I missed that, I don’t read all the posts on here.

[belton rover]

Hartley Brewer, Graham, et al are actually very critical of the government on many topics.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Of course they are. They are coming from a far further right position than the Govt.

[wilts rover]

What left-wing presenters give both sides of the argument? 

The ones on Talkradio so that Talkradio 'give both sides to an argument' as selby said?

Anybody...?

[belton rover]

Of course they are. They are coming from a far further right position than the Govt.

For what purpose?

[drfchound]

What left-wing presenters give both sides of the argument? 

The ones on Talkradio so that Talkradio 'give both sides to an argument' as selby said?

Anybody...?

To be fair wilts, if you or BST haven’t listened to Talk Radio how could you know that both sides of the argument haven’t been given?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Now you are asking for opinions on motives rather than observation of facts.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that Talk Radio exists for the same purpose as their far right forerunners in the USA. To shift the Overton Window to the right. But that's just my opinion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound. I have. I like to hear what all sides have to say. I find it hard to develop informed opinions any other way.

[drfchound]

Amazing BST.
You listen to so many radio stations and tv news bulletins, read so much from twitter etc. and research the internet for stories.
I don’t know how you find the time.

[selby]

  They have had two labour ex MP's as presenters, The best debater was George Galloway,who gave preference  to calls from women and anyone who disagreed with him. An  excellent  programme that gave open house to anyone willing to phone in and sadly missed by myself.
 And most of the guests used to be labour party MP's given a platform to air their views, but after very poor responses from those members who mostly cannot think on their feet, are shown up in debate as poor orators with shallow opinions and are poor at debating with such as Brewer and Graham have been conspicuous by their fewer and fewer  appearances on the shows.
   Most have been abject and just repeat the same spiel, they have mostly been embarrassing. Nandy was a car crash who has all but disappeared from view, as has I sound as thick as a plank quick thinking fast moving sound bite Johnathan Ashworth.

[belton rover]

Now you are asking for opinions on motives rather than observation of facts.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that Talk Radio exists for the same purpose as their far right forerunners in the USA. To shift the Overton Window to the right. But that's just my opinion.

It was a genuine question question Billy. Should I not ask for others’ opinions?

I’ve just had to look up ‘Overton Window’ as I’d never heard the phrase before.
Does this mean (again, a genuine question) that you think Talk Radio presenters criticise the government just to fool their listeners into thinking they are impartial? Or have I misunderstood its meaning?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.
You've expressed amazement on this multiple times. Personally, I'm amazed at people who don't listen and read widely but have strong views.

For what it's worth, tomorrow I'll have two hours in the car going to and from my place of work where I'll be setting the lads up to start on a £1/4m contract that we won last week. In the car, I'll be listening to various news channels. Like I tend to do on my walks every evening after work. But that's just me.

[drfchound]

Hound.
You've expressed amazement on this multiple times. Personally, I'm amazed at people who don't listen and read widely but have strong views.

For what it's worth, tomorrow I'll have two hours in the car going to and from my place of work where I'll be setting the lads up to start on a £1/4m contract that we won last week. In the car, I'll be listening to various news channels. Like I tend to do on my walks every evening after work. But that's just me.

I recall asking how you have time to run your business when coupling all your research together with the amount of time you spend writing on here.
I think you might be the forums most prolific poster.
I don’t recall saying before that I have been amazed by what you do.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

No I don't think that. I think they aim to undermine support for the scientific and political concensus. That includes fostering the opinion that the Govt is wrong to impose lockdowns for example. And the purpose of that is to set "people" against the Establishment (for want of a better word). With the intention of increasing support for populist political positions. That will involve criticising the Govt when suitable for their purpose, but also supporting politicians (including those in Govt) who espouse populist positions.

It's a decades-old strategy of the populist far-right. Tell people that those in power are against them, but we understand that and are on your side.

It is a sophisticated approach. They choose "experts" who fit their purpose. Just last week, Hartley-Brewer gave considerable air-time to Heneghan from Oxford University to push the anti-lockdown position, without informing listeners of the string of incorrect predictions he had made on the likelihood of a second wave or the efficacy of lockdowns. Or telling them of the shocking misrepresentation he made of a scientific study of the effectiveness of mask-wearing, where he claimed the report said the precise opposite of what the authors actually wrote. That was all ignored. But busy people who only listen to Talk Radio get the message "Oxford Prof says lockdowns are wrong. So yeah, the Establishment is doing down the ordinary people." That opens the door for populist politicians who say "We wouldn't do that." It's been a strategy that has been going on in America for decades. And over time, it normalises the possibility of a criminal populist like a Trump to end up in the White House.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

Well you've no need to worry on that score. Might be better to address substantive points rather than spend your limited time expressing your opinion on my time management.

[drfchound]

Hound.

Well you've no need to worry on that score. Might be better to address substantive points rather than spend your limited time expressing your opinion on my time management.

First of all, I’m not worried about whether you spend enough time running your business.
Secondly, I am puzzled about why you speak about “my limited time”.

[Metalmicky]

For what it's worth, tomorrow I'll have two hours in the car going to and from my place of work where I'll be setting the lads up to start on a £1/4m contract that we won last week. In the car, I'll be listening to various news channels. Like I tend to do on my walks every evening after work. But that's just me.

What is your business BST? - this is a genuine question and I'm genuinely interested... 

[selby]

  Billy so by your own admission the infection rate in New York is about double that of Texas per 100,000, the economic hit, with spiralling unemployment and an economic crash in New York compared to Texas is a better outcome because of a different  time line.
  I don't get your logic or does it again all come down to what side of the political spectrum you are on, which from the outside looking in seems to be the main thrust of you and your followers on here no matter what the situation is.
  Personally I don't doubt that a lock down policy is a useful tool in most circumstances, especially high density areas, but does it fit all circumstances? I have my doubts, that's all.