How Rovers are perceived nowadays

[BobG]

I wasn't talking about the last 18 seasons Campsall. The crucial words you missed are "During my lifetime"

BobG

[RoversAlias]

I wasn't talking about the last 18 seasons Campsall. The crucial words you missed are "During my lifetime"

BobG

Have you been in cryogenic storage for the past 18 years then Bob? 

I understand both sides of this rather futile debate. I'm under 30 (just) so on personal history alone we average out as a top half League One club. My own personal judgement on how "big" a club is in relation to others is not simply on historical status but also on current financial capability, stadium size, core fanbase, location and a few other factors of a similar nature. To me we come out around our current positional level in most of these aspects, and I don't think any player who is approached by Rovers would think of us as any less appealing than an upwardly-mobile League One side.

If we were still at Belle Vue I'd understand the justification that we are a League Two-level club but I think the Keepmoat and the many benefits that come with it have pushed us beyond that level now, regardless of our recent position.

[Dutch Uncle]

I agree with a lot being said on here. But I do think both others’ perceptions of us and our own perception of ourselves change over time, but the latter surely takes longer. 

IMHO perceptions of someone else’s football club are often formed very early – for example I started following in 1962 and based on that timeframe still think of the two Sheffield Clubs, Leeds, Sunderland as top flight clubs, and to a slightly lesser extent Derby, Forest, Aston Villa, Coventry, and Ipswich, and all temporarily below that level at the moment. On the other hand I regard Watford, Palace, Brighton, Bournemouth, Swansea as more level 3 than level 1. I am originally from Swansea and every season Swansea spend at level 2 to me is a success based on the last 60 years, and not another season exiled from the Premiership.

I think Rovers history and associated perceptions has two sets of successive seasons each of which saw a sea change which ushered in a total new era – the double relegations of 1957-58 & 1958-59, and the double promotions of 2002-03 & 2003-04.

The 17 seasons up to 1957-58 saw Rovers in Division 2 for eleven of them, and the 6 seasons in Division 3North we finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 3rd and 1st.  I think perceptions may well have been of a level 2 club who occasionally dropped down and came back quickly. This all changed after those two relegations.

The 40 seasons from 1958-59 to 1997-98 saw us spend 30 in Level 4 and only 10 in level 3 in which we had 5 relegations and a best finish of 11th. Of our 30 seasons in level 4, apart from 4 promotions we only had 3 top 10 finishes with a best of 8th, and as I recall never once seriously threatened promotion. So perceptions would be of a middling level 4 club who had the occasional short stay in level 3 (a stay of 6 out of 7 seasons in level 1 in the 1980’s notwithstanding). This has been my perception of Rovers for a very very long time, although I have to say it is now finally beginning to change.

After the self-destruct era and relegation to the conference, if we look at our status since 2003 this is our 18th season, 5 have been in level 2, 11 at level 3 and only two at level 4, both of which have been promotion seasons. In our eleven seasons in Level 3, apart from two promotions we have made the playoffs once, are challenging this season, might have made it last season and were still in the race for playoff on the last day of 2005-06. In those 18 years we have also won our first National Cup competition, equalled our best ever runs in the FA Cup and League Cup, had more  players play full international football (13) than we had in our entire history from 1879 to 2003 (10), and have sold 5 players for more than a million pounds each, and moved to a modern new stadium. To me that is a real sea change, and I now see us as a top 10 League 1 club, capable of occasional forays in level 2, but would be expecting a quick return if we have a bad season and fell to level 4.

This is a whole division higher than I thought between 1962 and 1998, and probably about half a division lower than perceptions might have been from 1934 to 1957. 

These are good times, unless of course you started supporting in 2008 and think that the Championship is our natural home.

[BobG]

The last 18 seasons, represent less than a third of the time I have actively supported Rovers. The successes and achievements of those 18 years come nowhere near overshadowing the other 37 years I have been a supporter. So no. I have not been in cryogenic storage RoversAlias. My sense of perspective is longer, more balanced than presumably is yours.

As Dutch Uncle points out though there are achievements over the last 18 years which will forever rank at the very pinnacle of Rovers achievements so far. But so far, in the context of well over 50 years, they remain the outliers. That is the gist of my argument that there needs to be more time at Level 3 for that to be the norm across my lifetime as a supporter.

BobG

[Dutch Uncle]

The last 18 seasons, represent less than a third of the time I have actively supported Rovers. The successes and achievements of those 18 years come nowhere near overshadowing the other 37 years I have been a supporter. So no. I have not been in cryogenic storage RoversAlias. My sense of perspective is longer, more balanced than presumably is yours.

As Dutch Uncle points out though there are achievements over the last 18 years which will forever rank at the very pinnacle of Rovers achievements so far. But so far, in the context of well over 50 years, they remain the outliers. That is the gist of my argument that there needs to be more time at Level 3 for that to be the norm across my lifetime as a supporter.

BobG

My goodness Bob, have I finally found someone slower to change than me 

[River Don]

During the Div 4 era I was always of the opinion that a town the size of Doncaster really ought to be able to host a better standard of football.

With investment the club has certainly taken a step up and I hope it continues. I'd like to think the Rovers could become a club solidly on a par with the likes of Barnsley and Rotherham. League 1 with occasional adventures into the Championship. I don't think we're quite there yet.

Now I think looking at the size of Doncaster and with a fair wind Rovers could hope to take another step up and become a more established Championship side in future closer in stature to Hull but it would take continued good ownership and additional investment. It would be a long term project to continue building the fan base. Not an impossible hope. Then again these might be the good years and things could still slip back.

[BobG]

Hi Dutch. I dunno tbh. But 18 years out of 55 is not a huge proportion is it? I agree thibngs are on the up. I agree we have achieved things unheard of for over 50 years. I agree we might be closing in on transforming the image of the club. But it's not yet long standing enough to be a permanent change yet in my eyes.

BobG

[Getridorit]

Looks like we've spent the majority of our exixistance at 3rd tier and above.

I'd say we're at our natural level.

My grandad would of course say we should be in tier 2 as that's where we were when he followed rovers in the 40s and 50s.

[Donnybob]

Just reflecting on the 1965/66 season in Div 4. The last 5 home fixtures each drew crowds in excess of 15,000 topped off by the final home game against Notts County when over 17,000 attended. That was the game where Tony Coleman punched Pickles (the ref) and we lost 3-0.

In and around the same period we drew Burnley at home in the league cup and the crowd was approaching 25,000.

Half a Century later we certainly have the potential to grow but it requires the club to me more proactive, something like a Donnybob challenge with incentives. Fill that red bank of empty seats opposite the TV cameras. They are, to me, the biggest visual impediment to growth. Even with a crowd of 10,000-plus those seats remain largely empty. Crowds draw crowds. Humans love a crush, big events, atmosphere. They don't fancy being Billy no mates on the far side. Be in no mistake, filling the East Stand is what this club needs to grow.

[RoversAlias]

The last 18 seasons, represent less than a third of the time I have actively supported Rovers. The successes and achievements of those 18 years come nowhere near overshadowing the other 37 years I have been a supporter. So no. I have not been in cryogenic storage RoversAlias. My sense of perspective is longer, more balanced than presumably is yours.

As Dutch Uncle points out though there are achievements over the last 18 years which will forever rank at the very pinnacle of Rovers achievements so far. But so far, in the context of well over 50 years, they remain the outliers. That is the gist of my argument that there needs to be more time at Level 3 for that to be the norm across my lifetime as a supporter.

BobG

I was only joking Bob, as the last 18 years are still part of your lifetime - a little under a third of it, but surely no more or less important than the other two thirds? I also acknowledged that your perspective would be different to mine due to the fact you've seen Rovers over a longer period of time, though I don't believe that makes you or anyone else more or less "right" on this debate.

As I also said before, I find the whole thing futile. How "big" we are or are not as a club matters not one jot, because it is our league position that thankfully rules our status in football. Hence why Bournemouth are currently a better club than Sunderland and Bolton, even if they aren't as "big".

[River Don]

What it could really do with now, for Rovers to get a bigger following is for the fortunes of the town to take an upturn. Perhaps if the airport were really to start growing? Then again they are now under pressure to limit the growth in aviation so I don't really see it happening.

[River Don]

Something in that Alias, and the higher the club gets, the more expensive and more demanding it gets following them. I have to say, I enjoyed the Conference era as much as any other.

[Janso]

Something in that Alias, and the higher the club gets, the more expensive and more demanding it gets following them.

Aye, especially if you've got nippers in tow.

[Campsall rover]

I wasn't talking about the last 18 seasons Campsall. The crucial words you missed are "During my lifetime"

BobG

Yes I realise that Bob. I do not know how old you are. But assuming you are around my age 65 there will be quite a considerable no at 3rd tier. But yes more in 4th tier.

Since we were relegated from the 2nd tier in 1958 we have spent 5 seasons in the 2nd tier.
21 at 3rd tier and 32 in the 4th tier and 5 seasons in the Conference.
I think that is correct. Dutch Uncle will know exactly. I just worked it out in my head so may not be bang on.

Anyone who saw us in the 50s can add on 7 yrs in the 2nd tier.

[eadiee73]

FWIW:
From a Gashead POV you come over as a well run club with a good stadium who seem to do consistently well (over the past 7/8 years) and when you are mentioned on our forums someone will always say why haven’t we done what you’ve done. This then provokes a discussion about our owners, our failure to get a decent ground and why are you always beating us! The discussion then goes on to how our crowds are usually higher than yours (just) and how we used to beat you consistently in the 70s/80s/90s and even the 00s. The conversation usually includes a reference about soulless new stadium bowls not generating the atmosphere that the Mem does on a matchday when we're doing well or flying high in the league. Unfortunately our memories aren’t usually that good to remember!!

[Barmby Rover]

I think RD has a point, the general upturn of the town would benefit the club as more people would have the funds to enjoy leisure time at football matches. That is what needs to happen, but it is out of control of the club. The societal changes to achieve this I can't see happening in the next ten years or so, and therefore I can't see Rovers being able to sustain a level 2 club. Without the increased support we will always be punching above our weight, but what the hell, we enjoy seeing it happen!

[andysly]

Just reflecting on the 1965/66 season in Div 4. The last 5 home fixtures each drew crowds in excess of 15,000 topped off by the final home game against Notts County when over 17,000 attended. That was the game where Tony Coleman punched Pickles (the ref) and we lost 3-0.

In and around the same period we drew Burnley at home in the league cup and the crowd was approaching 25,000.

Half a Century later we certainly have the potential to grow but it requires the club to me more proactive, something like a Donnybob challenge with incentives. Fill that red bank of empty seats opposite the TV cameras. They are, to me, the biggest visual impediment to growth. Even with a crowd of 10,000-plus those seats remain largely empty. Crowds draw crowds. Humans love a crush, big events, atmosphere. They don't fancy being Billy no mates on the far side. Be in no mistake, filling the East Stand is what this club needs to grow.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.
The empty swathes of seats in the East does make it look pitiful on a match day.
Going back to the DonnyBob challenge that was a great idea.
Also there were incentivised matches and the club supplied a daily ticket sold total that gathered interest. People don't like to think they are missing out on something good at a lower price, just look at supermarkets and how they advertise offers at cost or minimal profit to get people through the door, or make things 1 per customer to make you feel you've got something special when in essence you've probably got 10 bob off a few tins of soup.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think RD has a point, the general upturn of the town would benefit the club as more people would have the funds to enjoy leisure time at football matches. That is what needs to happen, but it is out of control of the club. The societal changes to achieve this I can't see happening in the next ten years or so, and therefore I can't see Rovers being able to sustain a level 2 club. Without the increased support we will always be punching above our weight, but what the hell, we enjoy seeing it happen!

I think this is a massive point.  The town is growing and the club does great with young fans.  But (and I've said this before), youngsters don't often stay in Doncaster.  A good majority of the guys I used to go to games with as a teenager live well out of the area these days, looking for jobs, opportunity etc.  Particularly happens at and after university, apprenticeships etc and I did the same myself.  At 33 I'm just about to start my first full time job in Doncaster (discounting the last year working from home), though I did move back to the town 6 years ago now.  Of my friends that stayed, many of those who do live in and around Doncaster also don't work here either, some never would but some don't have that opportunity.

It's about how as a town we keep these young people here which in turn grows everything else.  That vision to me still doesn't exist, but we're getting in to politics there and this about our football club.  No doubt the two are interlinked though, how can you grow the club when so many youngsters do leave the town?

[idler]

Back in the 60s Luton used to attract workers from all over the country for the Vauxhall factory there. I know one or two from Donny that went down.
They used to play midweek home games on a Thursday which was pay day for the car workers and always got good gates. I think that pits and factories were great places for fans to discuss the Rovers keeping the interest going. I remember one old lad saying that if you didn't go to a match on a Saturday you had little to talk about on a Monday  as all those that did go were talking about it. There was also far less to do on a Saturday in those days. I think that the buzz of expectation before a match and then meeting up with mates some of whom you only see at a match is great. Once that bond with the club is broken it takes some getting back.

[Dutch Uncle]

FWIW:
From a Gashead POV you come over as a well run club with a good stadium who seem to do consistently well (over the past 7/8 years) and when you are mentioned on our forums someone will always say why haven’t we done what you’ve done. This then provokes a discussion about our owners, our failure to get a decent ground and why are you always beating us! The discussion then goes on to how our crowds are usually higher than yours (just) and how we used to beat you consistently in the 70s/80s/90s and even the 00s. The conversation usually includes a reference about soulless new stadium bowls not generating the atmosphere that the Mem does on a matchday when we're doing well or flying high in the league. Unfortunately our memories aren’t usually that good to remember!!

Welcome back Gashead - always good to see you on here, and good to read others' perspectives.

The wall of sound greeting your equaliser at the Millennium will live with me til I die.

Good luck for the rest of this season 

[keyser_soze]

The wall of sound greeting your equaliser at the Millennium will live with me til I die.

Me too! One of the few times I've been at a match and the whole place seemed against us and I couldn't imagine us coming back. Apart from Leeds at Wembley I'm pretty sure that was the biggest opposition crowd I've seen in the flesh, and certainly the most intimidating reaction to a goal (of course Leeds didn't get a goal!)

[Getridorit]

The wall of sound greeting your equaliser at the Millennium will live with me til I die.

Me too! One of the few times I've been at a match and the whole place seemed against us and I couldn't imagine us coming back. Apart from Leeds at Wembley I'm pretty sure that was the biggest opposition crowd I've seen in the flesh, and certainly the most intimidating reaction to a goal (of course Leeds didn't get a goal!)

I got the impression walking round Cardiff that day that the majority of their support were day trippers.
From my position behind the goal, I wouldnt have described it as a wall of noise.
I mostly heard the moans from our fans  .
Mind you I was completely bladdered so could be mistaken!

[eadiee73]

Yes, that day at the Millenium, as on our days at Wembley much of our crowds are “day trippers” clearly. If they weren’t we’d have that number always and we don’t! We took nearly 40,000 to the Conference play offs. And our crowds are usually ranging from 6500-10500 depending on how well we are doing so clearly they don’t all come out as regulars. Is that what we lower league clubs call “potential”?

[River Don]

At Cardiff and Wembley there were a number of 'day tripoers' with me...

Except they weren't really daytrippers. They were lads from Doncaster who had moved away. Some go to the occasional away game, some used to go to the Rovers back when they still lived in Doncaster. So going to see the Rovers in a big occasion was important to them, even though they were no longer regulars.

It's back to the this point about transient populations and the challenge community football clubs like Rovers face in holding onto that support.

[DonnyOsmond]

As a town I'm not sure why were scared to build upwards? That's the only way we'll grow without ruining wildlife. We need to attract more companies to our town if we're ever going to grow to city status.

There's 300,000+ people in Doncaster, so we should be able to get more than what we get through the gates. I work in Doncaster and there isn't many Rovers fans at work, there's more Liverpool fans than anything, then Man Utd and Leeds.

[idler]

I can't understand folk that latch onto a successful team just so that after a match they can repeat the pundit's narrative and tell you how good their team is. I worked with quite a few over the years and for the odd ones that attended some games there were many solely watching on TV.
The game would die if everybody did the same.