Germany right to tell Greece to pay its debts

[IC1967]

It is starting to make my piss boil that the leftie nutters that are now in charge of Greece think Germany should bail them out yet again. They lived well beyond their means for many years. They knew what a mess they were getting into. Now it's payback time they want the debt writing off! Unbelievable.

If only life was that easy. Countries that overspend need to be taught a lesson. The rules of the game are that you should live within your means. If you don't, then pay the bill.

This lunacy now seems to be spreading to Spain. They also lived beyond their means and also want their debt writing off. These lefties need to look at Ireland. In Ireland they took the medicine and are now starting to move ahead again. At least there is one country that is prepared to take the necessary pain to get back on the right track.

[Filo]

Would you like me to reinstate that post Mick?

[River Don]

It seems to me the Greeks are just admitting what should have been admitted back in 2008.

It isn't a question of illiquidity, we are insolvent.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You should always pay back your debts.

If your politicians tell you that you can be more powerful than you are. If they lie to you and lead you into a situation that puts the whole continent at risk. If they then see the whole facade come crashing down, exposing their lies and their hubris. If those responsible leave the stage and leave the next generation with appalling debts and a shattered economy.

If all that happens, the debt has to be paid.

Right?

[IC1967]

You should always pay back your debts.

If your politicians tell you that you can be more powerful than you are. If they lie to you and lead you into a situation that puts the whole continent at risk. If they then see the whole facade come crashing down, exposing their lies and their hubris. If those responsible leave the stage and leave the next generation with appalling debts and a shattered economy.

If all that happens, the debt has to be paid.

Right?

What planet are you on? No way should you always pay back your debts. It all depends on the circumstances of the debt. I'd have thought even you would have known that.

[IC1967]

It seems to me the Greeks are just admitting what should have been admitted back in 2008.

It isn't a question of illiquidity, we are insolvent.

If they want to play the insolvency game then they should man up and play it. They should default on the debt, leave the Euro and leave the Eurozone and start again.

Wanting to keep the Euro and stay in the Eurozone and not pay your debt is not the way to go. They haven't reformed properly and show no signs of wanting to. They just want to keep on spending money they haven't got and expect the responsible members of the EU to pay for it. Crazy. But that's what you get with socialists.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So when you said that if you get into debt you pay the bill, it was b*llocks as usual.

[IC1967]

So when you said that if you get into debt you pay the bill, it was b*llocks as usual.

Typical glib reply from an unreconstructed leftie. You'd do better to explain why you think the non profligate countries should have to pay for the profligate countries. I don't think they should. Do you?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think economic decisions should be made in a way that tries to produce the greatest possible benefit for all concerned.

I think that insisting that a country that is insolvent should go through 20 years of penance as some sort of morality tale lesson is stupid and counterproductive.

I think that when a country is handing out moral lessons, it should be fully aware of its own past and how it was treated by those how it had wronged.

The country I was referring to in my post this morning was not Greece in 2000-15. It was Germany in 1933-53.

The German people allowed themselves to be misled by a wicked political idea. They took the whole of Europe into catastrophe. They ran up some of the biggest and unsustainable debts in history. And then, the countries they had wronged (including Greece!) wrote off the debts in 1953.

Modern Germany was born from that far-sighted decision. Modern Germany is obscenely refusing to learn from that lesson in the way it deals with Greece. Modern Germany's grandfathers broke every rule that holds humanity together. And they were forgiven by far-sighted people who could see the greater good. The current leaders of Modern Germany ignore that and insist that Greece has to play by the rules. Even if the rules drive them into 3rd world status. Even though it was the stupidity of German creditors that allowed the situation to arise as much as the mendacity of Greek politicians.

[IC1967]

I think economic decisions should be made in a way that tries to produce the greatest possible benefit for all concerned.

I think that insisting that a country that is insolvent should go through 20 years of penance as some sort of morality tale lesson is stupid and counterproductive.

I think that when a country is handing out moral lessons, it should be fully aware of its own past and how it was treated by those how it had wronged.

The country I was referring to in my post this morning was not Greece in 2000-15. It was Germany in 1933-53.

The German people allowed themselves to be misled by a wicked political idea. They took the whole of Europe into catastrophe. They ran up some of the biggest and unsustainable debts in history. And then, the countries they had wronged (including Greece!) wrote off the debts in 1953.

Modern Germany was born from that far-sighted decision. Modern Germany is obscenely refusing to learn from that lesson in the way it deals with Greece. Modern Germany's grandfathers broke every rule that holds humanity together. And they were forgiven by far-sighted people who could see the greater good. The current leaders of Modern Germany ignore that and insist that Greece has to play by the rules. Even if the rules drive them into 3rd world status. Even though it was the stupidity of German creditors that allowed the situation to arise as much as the mendacity of Greek politicians.

That's better. At least now I've got something to work with.

In future could you mention the country in question. I obviously knew who you were on about, but I'm sure there were many who didn't. Unfortunately for them they are not all blessed with my intellect. So just bear this in mind when you are pontificating. Try to be inclusive like what I am.

So you think that economic decisions should be made in a way that tries to produce the greatest possible benefit for all concerned. That's a noble ideal but I'm afraid not what happens in the real world. In the real world, countries  always try and get the best deal for themselves. It's our competitive human nature kicking in. Greece did this. They pulled a fast one to get into the Euro then went on a spending spree. You seem to think this behaviour is OK and they should be let off. Well I think this behaviour is morally reprehensible and they need to be taught a lesson they won't forget.

No-one is insisting that Greece goes through 20 years of penance. The Greeks themselves have been going down this route of their own volition. It seems that they have now decided to change their minds. Thats fine, but unfortunately they still want to go down the wrong route. They've already had a lot of debt written off but they want another load writing off! They then also want to stay part of the Eurozone. Unbelievable. I can only conclude that they are incredibly stupid. They should default on the debt if they really can't pay it and leave the Eurozone and start again with their own currency. That would be the sensible thing to do. Unfortunately there's no sense to be had when lefties are in charge.

Germany is fully aware of its history, which is why it knows how to run an economy properly. All they are asking is for other members of the Eurozone to do the same. Don't forget your history. It was the impossible terms and conditions the victors placed on Germany that led to a situation where Hitler could take power. The rest is history as they say. I think it's also time to let Germany move forward with a clean bill of health. Constantly banging on about how horrible they were in the past is bordering on racism. They've been punished. They learnt their lesson. It's time for Greece to be punished and for them to learn their lesson.

It's also no good just blaming Greek politicians. A country gets the politicians it deserves. The amount of corruption that was and still is going on beggars belief. This is not just a politician problem. It's a cultural one.

It's not just Germany that would lose money if the debt is written off. There are other countries in the Eurozone that would be affected. What about them? You obviously couldn't care less about them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Demanding abject apologies.
Insisting on your own omnipotence.
An obsession with punishment.

My mate the Freudian psychoanalyst is going to have a field day when I send some of Mick's posts onto her.

Anyway, the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts at once is now condensed into one paragraph.

First Mick tells us that countries act in their own interests. Then he says that Greece must be punished. No thought about what the consequences of that punishment might be for the creditor countries.

This is the real stupidity of the Greek situation. The Austerity terms imposed on Greece by the Troika in 2011 effectively endured that Greece would never pay back it's debt. Because they have utterly crippled Greece's economy, and hence, it's ability to pay.

Krugman did the numbers last week. He said that if Greece screws it's public sector (read "health system" "education system") to the ground and has a primary surplus of 4% per annum for the next 20 years (which is in heated of in the Western world) and pays EVERY PENNY of that to its creditors, it will still have paid back less than 20% of its debt.

None of that will happen because it is impossible for a modern country to operate on those fiscal terms (as the West realised in the case of Germany in 1953).

So, there are two options.

1) Some form of major debt restructuring, which effectively means that the creditors get nothing paid back until the Greek economy is seriously growing again.

2) Greece crashes out of the Euro and totally defaults on all it's debt.

1 would be politically messy, but could be spun to all sides as a partial success.

2 is what Germany is saying would be fine. Which is manifestly NOT in Germany's interests or those of any creditor. Because them they will get back nothing of the $240bn of debt that they are owed. And, whilst they may publicly say that the default of Greece would be controllable and would not destabilise the Euro, they have no idea if this is correct. It would be a terrifying gamble (that's a REAL gamble Mick, not an unplaced BetFair slip). And to what end? They'd risk the whole Euro project and ensure that the creditor never got a penny back simply to teach Greece a lesson?

In a rational world, you'd laugh at even the thought of that. Trouble is, Merkel is painting herself into a corner on this one by playing to the gallery at home. She's told the German public that this is entirely Greece's fault and that Greece must pay. She's ignored the role that German banks played in making the loans in the first place, or the role that she played in socialising those debts in 2011. She's gone a long way up the mountain and it's a long way back down.

[wilts rover]

Who's going to be first in pointing out the irony in that we have a Leeds United fan telling us we should pay our debts? How much did they default on at 10p to the £1, £50m was it? And how many small businesses went out of business as a result?

[IC1967]

Who's going to be first in pointing out the irony in that we have a Leeds United fan telling us we should pay our debts? How much did they default on at 10p to the £1, £50m was it? And how many small businesses went out of business as a result?

I may be a Rovers and Leeds fan but I do not condone Leeds going bust and creditors losing out. The small businesses that went out of business have my deepest sympathy.

[IC1967]

Demanding abject apologies.
Insisting on your own omnipotence.
An obsession with punishment.

My mate the Freudian psychoanalyst is going to have a field day when I send some of Mick's posts onto her.

Anyway, the ability to hold two contradictory thoughts at once is now condensed into one paragraph.

First Mick tells us that countries act in their own interests. Then he says that Greece must be punished. No thought about what the consequences of that punishment might be for the creditor countries.

This is the real stupidity of the Greek situation. The Austerity terms imposed on Greece by the Troika in 2011 effectively endured that Greece would never pay back it's debt. Because they have utterly crippled Greece's economy, and hence, it's ability to pay.

Krugman did the numbers last week. He said that if Greece screws it's public sector (read "health system" "education system") to the ground and has a primary surplus of 4% per annum for the next 20 years (which is in heated of in the Western world) and pays EVERY PENNY of that to its creditors, it will still have paid back less than 20% of its debt.

None of that will happen because it is impossible for a modern country to operate on those fiscal terms (as the West realised in the case of Germany in 1953).

So, there are two options.

1) Some form of major debt restructuring, which effectively means that the creditors get nothing paid back until the Greek economy is seriously growing again.

2) Greece crashes out of the Euro and totally defaults on all it's debt.

1 would be politically messy, but could be spun to all sides as a partial success.

2 is what Germany is saying would be fine. Which is manifestly NOT in Germany's interests or those of any creditor. Because them they will get back nothing of the $240bn of debt that they are owed. And, whilst they may publicly say that the default of Greece would be controllable and would not destabilise the Euro, they have no idea if this is correct. It would be a terrifying gamble (that's a REAL gamble Mick, not an unplaced BetFair slip). And to what end? They'd risk the whole Euro project and ensure that the creditor never got a penny back simply to teach Greece a lesson?

In a rational world, you'd laugh at even the thought of that. Trouble is, Merkel is painting herself into a corner on this one by playing to the gallery at home. She's told the German public that this is entirely Greece's fault and that Greece must pay. She's ignored the role that German banks played in making the loans in the first place, or the role that she played in socialising those debts in 2011. She's gone a long way up the mountain and it's a long way back down.

You really don't get it do you. The Euro will collapse. It is only a matter of time. I'd give it 2 years maximum. It is a totally discredited, flawed currency. There are too many competing national interests that are all different for it to work. I haven't checked, but I wouldn't be surprised if even your favourite leftie economists agree with me on that one.

So anyone with half a brain can see that option 2 is the only solution to their problems. The sooner they get out the better.

Whose to say they won't pay some of the money back anyway when they sort out all the corruption that is rife in the country? This would get them some brownie points and make life easier for them with their own currency.

They will get kicked out. Of that I'm certain. They don't want it but it will be the best thing that could happen to them given the current situation and imminent demise of the Euro.

Let's get another thing straight. Greece is in the mess it is in not because they got bailed out by the troika. They are in this mess because of crap politicians elected by a crap electorate who were quite happy to be bribed.

Throwing more money at this type of country is just pouring more down the drain. Greece is a lost cause and only has itself to blame.

If you want to have a wild party that you know you can't afford then don't be surprised when you get the mother of all hangovers.

[River Don]

The Euro will collapse because there are too many competing national interests. That is true.

Germany was always reluctant to give up the Dmark and throw its hat in with the EU project but France forced the issue.

They will drag it out and drag it out.

Greece is a lost cause, it knows it is now. If they had accepted that back in 2008 then they would be in a far better position now.

[IC1967]

The Euro will collapse because there are too many competing national interests. That is true.

Germany was always reluctant to give up the Dmark and throw its hat in with the EU project but France forced the issue.

They will drag it out and drag it out.

Greece is a lost cause, it knows it is now. If they had accepted that back in 2008 then they would be in a far better position now.

Bang on.  I've just done a quick Google on one of Billy's heroes, Mr Krugman. It's as I thought. He also says Greece must leave the Euro. Funny how silly Billy mentions Krugman in his post to support his viewpoint when he knows full well Krugman thinks Greece should leave the Euro. But silly Billy doesn't tell us this though does he.

I wonder if he would say I was disingenuous if I did the same thing.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

You are utterly incapable of drawing any sort of robust conclusions.

I stated the NUMBERS that Krugman quoted. Numbers Mick. things that add up and can be checked by any sentient being with enough ability to process facts.

I said nothing about the OPINIONS of Krugman. Krugman has been making the wrong call about Greece for 4 years. He's been consistently saying that Greece was about to go and the Euro was about to collapse. He's been wrong on that, at the very least on the timescale.

You see me quoting numbers, not quoting opinions and draw the conclusion that I'm being disingenuous.

Go away idiot. I've got an all-nighter preparing a tender for my company and I'm spending no more time on your dribblings.

[IC1967]

Mick

You are utterly incapable of drawing any sort of robust conclusions.

I stated the NUMBERS that Krugman quoted. Numbers Mick. things that add up and can be checked by any sentient being with enough ability to process facts.

I said nothing about the OPINIONS of Krugman. Krugman has been making the wrong call about Greece for 4 years. He's been consistently saying that Greece was about to go and the Euro was about to collapse. He's been wrong on that, at the very least on the timescale.

You see me quoting numbers, not quoting opinions and draw the conclusion that I'm being disingenuous.

Go away idiot. I've got an all-nighter preparing a tender for my company and I'm spending no more time on your dribblings.

You like to wheel out Mr Krugman on a regular basis in an effort to back up your views. I never said you were being disingenuous. I wondered if you would say I was if I did the same thing.

Back to Mr Krugman. You use his figures to try to make the case for Greece having a big chunk of its debt written off but you don't give the context. Krugman was making the case for Greek withdrawal from the Euro because they are in a ludicrous situation.

Some might think you were being disingenuous in using his figures to make the case for debt write off so they could stay in the Euro when Krugman does not hold this view. I couldn't possibly comment. I'll let the readers of this thread decide what they think of you.

Krugman is not as good as me at predicting things but he's got one thing right. Greece will leave the Euro one way or another.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

I am REALLY busy, but I'll just pop by to point out yet another lie of yours. Krugman was NOT making the case for a Greek Euro withdrawal when he posted those numbers.

I don't know who you are used to dealing with. You lie glibly, and just seem to assume that you're dealing with people who don't have a grasp of facts. You are an embarrassment to yourself. You live in your own world where simple facts can be ignored or brushed aside blithely while you trot out blatant lies. I have honestly never met anyone quite like you, in your ability to lie repeatedly and unashamedly, have this pointed out to you, and then come back and do it again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way, for the record, I got Krugman's numbers wrong. I didn't check them before posting. Just have done now.

The period was 5 years, not 20. And the payback was 11% of the debt, not 20%.

For further record, Krugman posted those numbers in an article explicitly commenting on why it would be a very bad thing for creditors if Greece was to leave the Euro, but that they could enforce that outcome if they wanted to humiliate Greece and teach them a lesson, at the expense of losing money themselves.

Our resident liar checked none of those facts. He just lied and assumed that no one would notice.

The article is here by the way.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2015/01/26/greece-think-flows-not-stocks/

[IC1967]

By the way, for the record, I got Krugman's numbers wrong. I didn't check them before posting. Just have done now.

The period was 5 years, not 20. And the payback was 11% of the debt, not 20%.

For further record, Krugman posted those numbers in an article explicitly commenting on why it would be a very bad thing for creditors if Greece was to leave the Euro, but that they could enforce that outcome if they wanted to humiliate Greece and teach them a lesson, at the expense of losing money themselves.

Our resident liar checked none of those facts. He just lied and assumed that no one would notice.

The article is here by the way.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2015/01/26/greece-think-flows-not-stocks/

Very naughty making figures up. I tried to check the facts but because you'd made them up I couldn't! However as I'm a magnanimous soul I won't call you a liar.

Look, its very simple. Krugman believes Greece should leave the Euro and that it will happen. That is the context that any of his pontifications should be judged by. Therefore I am right and you are once again wrong. Anything Krugman says about Greece and I mean anything, should be put into the context of us knowing that he believes Greece will exit the Euro.

Now I feel it is very naughty of you to put forward dodgy figures (at least initially) to help you make your case that Greece should have a debt write off and stay in the Euro. Anyone reading your post would have jumped to the conclusion that Krugman thought as you do. Why on earth would you use ahem 'dodgy' figures and attribute them to Krugman without giving us the proper context?

I think the least you can be accused of is being economical with the truth. I'll leave it to the readers of the forum if they think you deserve worse condemnation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

1. You could easily check them if you knew where to start.

Greece's current debt is around 175% of GDP. Krugman states that if they followed the current plan (devoting their 4.5% surplus on Govt spending to servicing the debt) for the next 5 years, they would pay the creditors the sum of 20% of 1 year's worth of GDP. Or, as any numerate person could calculate, 11.4% of the total debt.

2. You stated in relation to those figures (which you don't understand) that "Krugman was making the case for Greek withdrawal from the Euro ". He wasn't. You made that up. You lied about it. If I'm wrong about that, show me exactly where in that post Krugman was " making the case for Greek withdrawal from the Euro ".

3. Yes I made a mistake in the earlier figures. My recall was incorrect. I should have checked the numbers first, but I was rushing. I got it wrong. When I checked later, I corrected the numbers. What grown-up people do when they make a mistake and realise it is to admit that and make a correction. What they don't do is try to cover their tracks by deletion, obfuscation, digging a bigger hole and lying. That's what little kids do when they've made a mistake.

Now, go away while I get on with something more important that swatting away any irritating bug like you.

[IC1967]

Mick

1. You could easily check them if you knew where to start.

Greece's current debt is around 175% of GDP. Krugman states that if they followed the current plan (devoting their 4.5% surplus on Govt spending to servicing the debt) for the next 5 years, they would pay the creditors the sum of 20% of 1 year's worth of GDP. Or, as any numerate person could calculate, 11.4% of the total debt.

2. You stated in relation to those figures (which you don't understand) that "Krugman was making the case for Greek withdrawal from the Euro ". He wasn't. You made that up. You lied about it. If I'm wrong about that, show me exactly where in that post Krugman was " making the case for Greek withdrawal from the Euro ".

3. Yes I made a mistake in the earlier figures. My recall was incorrect. I should have checked the numbers first, but I was rushing. I got it wrong. When I checked later, I corrected the numbers. What grown-up people do when they make a mistake and realise it is to admit that and make a correction. What they don't do is try to cover their tracks by deletion, obfuscation, digging a bigger hole and lying. That's what little kids do when they've made a mistake.

Now, go away while I get on with something more important that swatting away any irritating bug like you.

Look it's very simple. I don't know why you can't understand it. Facts and figures that are not put in the proper context are meaningless. Before wheeling out Krugman you should have given the context. You didn't. I did. Also you were so far off with what you said, and what was the truth, it beggars belief. There's a big difference in saying 20 years when it was 5 and payback of 20% not 11%.

It's not the first time you've used figures and statements out of context. Learn your lesson. I'll be keeping a close eye on what you say and will expose any misdemeanors. You have been warned.

[IC1967]

Right, I'm going to make the case for why Germany won't allow a debt write-off and quite right too.

You lefties love to criticise Germany. You think Merkel is an evil witch. You forget she is a politician who has to reflect the views of her electorate if she wants to stay in power. A recent opinion poll shows that 43% of Germans don't want Merkel to write off Greek debt as opposed to 16% who do. It would be political suicide to ignore the electorate's views.

When Germany gave up the deutschmark for the euro the electorate were told that there would be safeguards. They were told that the European Central Bank would be based in Frankfurt and there would be strict rules about which countries could join the euro.They were also told that under no circumstances would there be bailouts for struggling countries.

Unfortunatley the rules were eased to let too many countries in. The ECB is now run by an Italian and indulging in quantitative easing and incredible  amounts of money has been spent buying the bonds of struggling European governments and banks. The Germans aren't daft. They know they will pick up most of the bill.

Now to Greece. They have already had a big chunk of debt written off. Their remaining debt has a 16 year maturity at an average rate of 2.4%. There is no way they would get such generous terms anywhere else.

Let's also not forget that Germany went through a painful period of restructuring in the early 2000s to make sure their economy would be competitive and could handle the rigours of the euro. Is Merkel now to tell her electorate that the rules don't apply to other countries? The Germans have already put up with a lot, and so far they haven't swung to the far left or right which has happened in other parts of Europe.

I know what my feelings would be if I were German. There is no way I'd want to waste any more money on Greece. I'd want the money spending in my own country.

Germany has already been more than fair with Greece so far. The Greeks need to accept responsibility for the mess they are in. They need to stop expecting other countries to pick up the bill for their wanton over borrowing and spending.

[BillyStubbsTears]

A key feature of both the original ERM and the eventual Euro was the Stability and Growth Pact. This was supposed to ensure that all countries going into the Euro had converging economic and fiscal performance. The Fiscal requirements were that, once the Euro was in place, no country should have a Govt deficit >3% of GDP or a total public debt >60% GDP.

This was a stupid rule, used to substitute for what SHOULD happen in  a monetary union (there should be differential deficits and consequent fiscal flows from better-performing to worse-performing regions as the relative performances of their local economies change). But, to paraphrase the favourite phrase of the German Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schaueble when talking about Greece, those were the rules and there should be consequences for breaking the rules.

In the case of the Stability and Growth Pact, the stated consequences for exceeding the debt/deficit were that the European Commission was supposed to apply huge fines to the transgressor countries.

Guess who broke the rules in 2003, when their economy was flat-lining and they needed a fiscal boost to get things moving?

Guess whose deficit was higher than that allowed by the Pact in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006?

Guess whose debt went from 60% in 2003 to 80% in 2011?

Guess which country was threatened with sanctions by the Commission?

Guess which country effectively bullied the Commission into backing down and letting them do what they wanted?

In other words, guess which country effectively ripped up the Pact in the run-up to the Great Crash and got away with it scot-free?

Go on, guess.

I'll give you a clue. It's the same country that is now insisting that everyone else must play by the rules, or there are severe consequences.

You're correct Mick, for once, that Germany's politicians are hemmed in by public opinion in Germany. But the politicians has fostered the belief that Germans are fine, upstanding, fair, rule-abiding people, and the Southern Europeans are feckless, untrustworthy spendthrifts.

Now, Greece and Greek politicians have committed grevious mistakes. And boy are they paying for it. But Germany too has committed dreadful mistakes. And they have been given a helping hand to pull themselves round every time. They have a national myth that Germans are a special kind of hard-working people. It was disastrous in the early 20th century and, in a less mild form now, it is preventing Europe from taking the path that it needs to take to get out of its collective catastrophe.

[IC1967]

Look, its very simple. Greece didn't just break the rules, they smashed them to pieces. No way can you compare Germany's minor misdemeanors with what Greece got up to.

And stop banging on about the war. Germany suffered terribly after it. They've done their time. Move on.

[River Don]

The Greeks would have to have their own currency before they can begin to 'accept responsibility' for the state they are in. As it is, since they don't have control over their own currency they are dependant on the EU.

The current mess isn't helped while individual nations, not least Germany continue to behave as if they were independent sovereign states while the economic union they are wedded to demands they start to behave as a single nation. The Germans are well aware of the costs of supporting Greece but perhaps less aware of the benefits Germany gains from being an EZ member. The Deutsche Mark would be sky high now and German products far less competitive if it weren't for monetary union, as the recent Swiss experience has shown.

Greece was allowed to join the common currency at a time when it was not ready, why should the EU and Germany not accept some responsibility now for allowing that to happen?

[IC1967]

The Greeks would have to have their own currency before they can begin to 'accept responsibility' for the state they are in. As it is, since they don't have control over their own currency they are dependant on the EU.

The current mess isn't helped while individual nations, not least Germany continue to behave as if they were independent sovereign states while the economic union they are wedded to demands they start to behave as a single nation. The Germans are well aware of the costs of supporting Greece but perhaps less aware of the benefits Germany gains from being an EZ member. The Deutsche Mark would be sky high now and German products far less competitive if it weren't for monetary union, as the recent Swiss experience has shown.

Greece was allowed to join the common currency at a time when it was not ready, why should the EU and Germany not accept some responsibility now for allowing that to happen?

Not necessarily. I think having their own currency is the obvious way forward but they don't want that. So if they stay they will have to accept responsibility within the framework of the euro. Not easy I know and will lead to total disaster but that seems to be what they want for some strange reason I can't begin to fathom. Don't they have intelligent people in Greece that know this is a crazy idea?

The euro will ultimately fail because nations will always look out for their own self interest. They will never act as one nation which is what currency union demands. How the idiots that came up with the idea of the euro couldn't see this beggars belief.

Germany has benefited from the euro but I'm afraid they are going to suffer quite a bit when the euro collapses.

Germany and the EU have accepted some responsibility by already writing off debt and giving them a loan at much better terms than they would get elsewhere.

Greece fiddled the figures with the help of Goldman Sachs to join the euro. They spent borrowed money that they knew they wouldn't be able to pay back. The whole society is on the fiddle and is corrupt. This hasn't changed much since they were bailed out. I know one thing for sure. I wouldn't want the British government giving them any more money. I totally understand why the Germans don't want to carry on wasting money on them.

They've only themselves to blame. They've had the party, its now time to cure the hangover by leaving the euro and defaulting on the debt. Hopefully this then hastens the demise of the euro and ultimately leads to the breakup of the EU.

[River Don]

Syriza did want to get the country out of the Euro but they realised that despite everything the public still want to remain in it. So they changed their policy to get elected. They still might end up engineering a situation where Greece is forced out I suppose.

I saw one commentator sum up the problem like this. The Germans want to sell luxury cars at Greek prices, while the Greeks want to sell olives at German prices. It sums up how divergent the two economies are quite nicely.

[IC1967]

Syriza did want to get the country out of the Euro but they realised that despite everything the public still want to remain in it. So they changed their policy to get elected. They still might end up engineering a situation where Greece is forced out I suppose.

I saw one commentator sum up the problem like this. The Germans want to sell luxury cars at Greek prices, while the Greeks want to sell olives at German prices. It sums up how divergent the two economies are quite nicely.

I didn't know that. I must admit I was starting to think that the way they have handled things so far they had a secret agenda to get out of the euro.