Should work/school give time off for international games?

[wing commander]

It sets a dangerous precedent for schools/workplaces to do it.

If you give in to football, do you do the same for Tennis, Rugby, Cricket, etc, if England progress far?

Also, does it start and stop at England?

What happens if the foreign kid/employee wants to watch their country during class/work time?

It's something which could run the risk of opening pandoras box in the long-term.

That said, if I were running a business/school, as long as the employees/workers did the correct amount of hours (and gave full dedication), I wouldn't care too much if games/events are on in that environment.

     Then it's lucky you don't run a business the Rigo isn't it...Firstly this is not a perfect world,times are hard and businesses take some running..It's easy to come out with statements like that, sadly it has one tiny drawback----it's pure rubbish.
      Firstly if I had turned round to my staff yesterday and said no!!! your not going to go home early to watch the game,i'm not setting a precedent so your working as normal..Just what response do you think I would get when I then asked them next time if they would work late to help me out because we have a deadline....????
  Secondly we all don't work with pens...I'm sure the hse will be very sympathetic to me, when joe blogs gets his arm trapped in a machine because I had allowed telly's in the factory to watch the game while letting him work.....
  Strangely I don't get many requests to rearrange the factories work times to watch Wimbledon...Precedents don't exist in business rigo..you evaluate each problem individually and work out whats best for the business over the longer term.....
   Yesterdays was for them to start a bit early and go home early and I ended up losing 1 hour of production compaired to a normal day and all the staff were happy...

[drfchound]

My wife is a teacher at a college and she works late into the night and at weekends quite often,at home.
Lesson plans and marking.
She also works far more than 8 months a year.
Anyone who thinks that teachers don't work long hours doesn't know the truth.

[Chris Black come back]

As I said earlier, teachers play a hugely important role in society and should be given more respect frankly.

What I think irritates many folk though is the sometimes sanctimonious tone from middle class teaching moaners about what a raw deal they have.

As a start, they have 12 weeks holiday each year. I know it is inconvenient that you can only take holiday during those periods, but 12 weeks (almost 25pc of the entire year) as holiday is not a bad gig at all.

Also, yes they often have to do lesson planning and marking at home, often perhaps at weekends, but there are plenty of other jobs where people take work home or are on call at all hours. Their working day on average I would suspect is around 7.30am-4.30pm. Is that any different to a standard 8.30am-5.30pm that most folk work? While kids can be a real pain and in some schools no doubt there are some really violent and disruptive kids, this is not like being a copper, fireperson or steelworker where there is real physical danger or damage in the course of their work.

There are plenty of jobs where people get a really shit deal for a lot less money than teachers get (call centre workers, warehouse staff etc) but don't have the pulpit provided to lots of articulate middle class teachers - some of whom abuse this.

[wing commander]

It sets a dangerous precedent for schools/workplaces to do it.

If you give in to football, do you do the same for Tennis, Rugby, Cricket, etc, if England progress far?

Also, does it start and stop at England?

What happens if the foreign kid/employee wants to watch their country during class/work time?

It's something which could run the risk of opening pandoras box in the long-term.

That said, if I were running a business/school, as long as the employees/workers did the correct amount of hours (and gave full dedication), I wouldn't care too much if games/events are on in that environment.

     Then it's lucky you don't run a business the Rigo isn't it...Firstly this is not a perfect world,times are hard and businesses take some running..It's easy to come out with statements like that, sadly it has one tiny drawback----it's pure rubbish.
      Firstly if I had turned round to my staff yesterday and said no!!! your not going to go home early to watch the game,i'm not setting a precedent so your working as normal..Just what response do you think I would get when I then asked them next time if they would work late to help me out because we have a deadline....????
  Secondly we all don't work with pens...I'm sure the hse will be very sympathetic to me, when joe blogs gets his arm trapped in a machine because I had allowed telly's in the factory to watch the game while letting him work.....
  Strangely I don't get many requests to rearrange the factories work times to watch Wimbledon...Precedents don't exist in business rigo..you evaluate each problem individually and work out whats best for the business over the longer term.....

So, if you're working at a business, for arguments sake lets say in a factory with quite a few Polish employees, what would you do if they're playing at 2pm, mid-shift, in a big tournament game?

If you do it for the English, you have to do it for the Polish, surely? Otherwise, accusations of discrimination may get thrown about.

And then lets say, in a month or so, it's Djokovic vs Murray in the Wimbledon SF/Final (or whatever) and a Serbian employee and a Scottish employee wants to watch that.

It's common sense to take each situation on its merits.

However, going back to a school environment (and especially given how English kids aren't always the majority in some schools nowadays), it does open up a can of worms.

What do you do when the foreign kids want to watch their sporting heroes during class-time? If you say no to them, it's complete hypocrisy given that it was okay for the English kids.

You have to have consistency.

      It's not rocket science Rigo...If there is enough of them, you let them do the same...You open the factory early and let them watch the game...I had half my workforce who didn't want to watch the game yesterday..Instead of being open 7-3 we were open 6-3 then everybody had a choice...
     However business comes first and if a single Scottish/Serbian asked for the afternoon off to watch the tennis the answer would be, take a days holiday or the answers No....Because upsetting over half my workforce effects my business going forward,upseting one doesn't make a difference..!!!
     There is no discrimination issue at all...it's my right as a employer to set the hours of work I want which is best for the business as long as I'm not forcing them to work more than the contracted hours...

[BillyStubbsTears]

CBCB

I suspect you've never had a teacher in your family...

[Mike_F]

The argument you're trying to create doesn't hold water, Rigo. Regardless of how fair or liberal you are, there are certain conventions that can be justifiably defended as part of a national (not national-ist) identity.

The majority of the population aren't practicing Christians but Christmas and Easter are still public holidays whereas Ramadan, Eid etc. aren't.

English-based companies exercising discretion around England fixtures are perfectly within their rights to do so.

If I were to emigrate to Spain, I wouldn't mind my employer doing something for Spain matches but telling me to bugger off if I asked for the same treatment for England matches. It would be my choice to live and work there!

[Bentley Bullet]

I was thinking of a Christian/Christmas/Ramadan response but Mike_F beat me to it, and I'm glad he did. He put his point across very well.

[Jonathan]

Quite simple. If there's an individual wanting time off to watch something then they can book leave. An understanding employer will likely make concessions for national games, but I booked the time off as soon as the fixtures were released. Even if my employer was screening it I don't want to watch the game in a stuffy office with a load of half interested people.

[Chris Black come back]

CBCB

I suspect you've never had a teacher in your family...

Know plenty! Would see more of them but I rarely get out of work before 7pm...

[Chris Black come back]

Quite simple. If there's an individual wanting time off to watch something then they can book leave. An understanding employer will likely make concessions for national games, but I booked the time off as soon as the fixtures were released. Even if my employer was screening it I don't want to watch the game in a stuffy office with a load of half interested people.

I endorse this view - particularly being trapped watching a game with idiots who know absolutely nothing about football. If I wanted that then I can always sit in the West Stand every other Saturday.

Thank you and goodnight.

[southwestexile]

doesn't it just come down to common sense at the end of the day?  And a recognition that people often respond more positively to being treated as humans rather than focussing on targets and productivity?

I guess it comes down to how you see the snow - a great excuse for extra time off work/school and having unexpected and unplanned fun with family and friends - or a whole box full of lost working hours leading to the crippling of the economy which doesn't happen in Germany!

The whole thing about teaching all depends on whether there is a teacher in your family or not - if there isn't then you probably only have a limited perception of the average teacher's lifestyle (pressures and pay-off freedoms).  Also, don't forget that teachers' pay is not great compared to many other professions (can of worms?)

[Chris Black come back]

doesn't it just come down to common sense at the end of the day?  And a recognition that people often respond more positively to being treated as humans rather than focussing on targets and productivity?

I guess it comes down to how you see the snow - a great excuse for extra time off work/school and having unexpected and unplanned fun with family and friends - or a whole box full of lost working hours leading to the crippling of the economy which doesn't happen in Germany!

The whole thing about teaching all depends on whether there is a teacher in your family or not - if there isn't then you probably only have a limited perception of the average teacher's lifestyle (pressures and pay-off freedoms).  Also, don't forget that teachers' pay is not great compared to many other professions (can of worms?)

Teachers start on minimum of 23k or 28k in London. The mid-point in this range is around the national average salary.

This is an important point btw. I don't think for a minute that teachers spend every minute of their 12 weeks holidays actually on holiday and there will be some lesson prep and planning involved, but if you pro-rata that starting salary (the very least they will ever earn in the job) then it is much larger than the average salary (where folk will get the measly 5 weeks holiday that is standard).

Not a king's ransom by any means but a well paid and stable job.

[southwestexile]

used to be a stable job but redundancies are rife these days along with pension cuts whereas pay rises are not

we're hardly protected from the world as many are lead to believe

[idler]

My daughter is about 5'2" and has been threatened by much larger male parents on more than one occasion.
She was also told by one eight year old girl the she was " A Christian whore that will burn in hell".
Whatever you think of teachers it must be the most frustrating job to have.
Some of the things that she witnessed when she was teaching in Newport were barely believable.
I wouldn't want the job whatever the pay.

[BillyStubbsTears]

CBCB

I suspect you've never had a teacher in your family...

Know plenty! Would see more of them but I rarely get out of work before 7pm...

My mother was a teacher for 20 odd years.

There was rarely an evening when she wasn't working. Rarely a "holiday" when she wasn't lesson-planning, going on training courses or in at the school preparing for the new term.

She took kids away on weekend residential/camping trips.

She dealt with family issues and child abuse on a regular basis. One that sticks in my mind is the time when she was called by a distraught and deranged mother to the to the house of one of her 6 year old pupils, to find the pupil screaming manically in the garden. The reason being that the kid's dad was being attended to in the house by paramedics after a local drug lord had broken into the house and chopped his hand off with a machete in front of the kid.

You might know some slackers, but they're not all like that. Just like we're finding out after yesterday's tragedy that not all MPs are on the gravy train.

[The Red Baron]

My mother was also a teacher and I had my own brief flirtation with the profession, so they will always get a sympathetic hearing from me.

One thing that doesn't show teachers in a flattering light though is their union conferences. Held every Easter they are like a throwback to 1970s trade union militancy at it's worse. Education ministers of all parties are invariably treated with disrespect and they pass any number of resolutions calling for industrial action (although few of these ever come to pass.) I am sure this is where some people - especially those who don't have teachers in the family or kids currently in school- form a negative view of the profession.

The teaching unions (which generally do a good job for their members) need to look at their PR.

[JonWallsend]

CBCB

I suspect you've never had a teacher in your family...

Know plenty! Would see more of them but I rarely get out of work before 7pm...

Retrain as a teacher. I'm home for 3.30 most days. Mind I do start at 9 in the morning and only get an hour for lunch. It's barely enough time to digest my feta salad or plan my 6 weeks camping in France. I don't expect you to understand though.  You probably do some less academically taxing, more manual vocation. Still you're doing your bit,  so good on you. Who are these middle class, sanctimonious moaners?

[idler]

Whatever you do then Jon don't take a position in inner city  Bradford or Newport. 😉

[Sammy Chung was King]

There isn't much happy news in the world at the minute. For me where is the harm of a few hours off work, to watch either euro's or world cup games, they don't happen often, the working man or woman misses a lot as it is.
Anything that delivers a smile to somebodies face for a few hours is a good thing. I'm not a businessman, but i would think the workers would be grateful and work harder when they come back to work.
Teachers have a lot to deal with these days i would think, very challenging kids to try to teach, for me they do a good job on the whole.

[Al4475]

Nope. If the head wants to let them watch it at school fair enough. But time off?? I take it said teachers would still be getting paid if the school closed for the afternoon. As if they don't get enough time off already!

Hahahahaha!

You have no idea how much out of school time work that teachers do, do you?  My mum was a teacher, deputy head, then head teacher for over 30 years and she was constantly busy until gone 6pm most evenings, then through most of the holidays.

It's even worse nowadays. I'm at school at 7:30am and rarely leave before 6:00pm - then I have all the other stuff I do for the kids - Young Voices, Drama, Sport etc etc. It's report writing time now and assessment analysis before beginning to prepare for next year.

If i'm lucky - I'll get a week camping with the Mrs and Stepkids early (probably 2nd week) in the Summer Hols and maybe (but unlikely) a week abroad in about the fourth week - I guarantee that I will be in school 9:00am-3:00pm for at least 3 of the 5 'work days' of the remaining weeks and moreso in the last week!

And although the salary's ok there'll be loads more of you on here that earn far more than me!

As for the game itself and the reason for this thread - our Head isn't a football fan so he had no idea how many people would want to watch it - we (as in a colleague and I) organised a showing for all those who wanted to watch it in the hall. 

We gave every child three choices: Stay in class as normal, watch the game and leave at 3:30 (normal leave time) or watch the whole game and leave after it ended. In our year group around 20 kids (from 90) stayed in class - and did academic work based around the Euros (A sweepstake style factfile about each of the countries) the rest watched the game with most staying till the end. 

By doing this we also managed to free up two 2/3 of the teaching/support staff to prepare class lists, write a report or two, input a bit of data into the tracking system etc - which my colleague and I will have to do in our own time either at home or early doors/late one night at school.