Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Campsall rover on November 24, 2021, 12:59:35 am
-
Why is he being used as a scapegoat by so many of our so called supporters.
I think it is disgraceful the treatment he is receiving on this site.
He turns 19 yrs old this month and people expect him to be the finished article.
RW only brought him to the club to be a understudy not a regular 1st teamer.
Circumstances have meant he has been playing much more than was originally intended.
If his confidence is low is it any surprise with the abuse he gets.
-
It's frustration with our recruitment strategy. The lad is nearly half a season in and he still looks WAY short of the level required. Leaves you wondering what on earth we thought he was going to bring to the squad.
We've had some excellent loan signings in recent years, of 19 year old players. John-Jules, Ennis, Ramsey, Kane, Wilks, Richards all hit the ground running and looked the part. I accept that a year is a long time in players' development at that age, but Cukur feels like a signing that we really didn't think through, in a squad that we knew was going to be thin up front at best. I certainly don't agree with giving the lad stick and I hope he makes a decent player. But he's been a very, very poor signing for us.
-
https://youtu.be/TK0-Jx6a4cA
He wasn't brought in to sit on the bench.
-
Are you expecting the manager to announce his new signing by stating he’s just here to fill up the squad?
-
When have we ever signed a loan player for them not to play? Other than Moore who signed too many to get in the squad. Watford won’t send him unless he’s playing and if he’s not we’ll be paying so much in extra loan fees that we could afford a decent striker of our own!
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
-
He is 19 and fit. We expect to see some liveliness about him. Some spark. Some imagination and creativity. Some confidence.
I’ve seen none of this.
-
He’s just not up to the standard. That’s obvious. Wellens will know this more than anyone.
-
I get that not every EPL youngster will make it or be hugely impressive, but the Watford fans were saying he was their big hope from the youth ranks. Either they were taking the piss or something has gone badly wrong since August.
-
When have we ever signed a loan player for them not to play? Other than Moore who signed too many to get in the squad. Watford won’t send him unless he’s playing and if he’s not we’ll be paying so much in extra loan fees that we could afford a decent striker of our own!
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
We’ve never been left with half a squad but no funds to fill it.
Our only option to fill it was free loans and players without a job
-
He's had about 2 decent games since being here, otherwise he's just come on and been sloppy with the ball, like a baby horse and has the mobility of a tank. It's pointless bringing him on when someone like Kuleya will bring more to the game.
-
Quote
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
What wages do you think we contribute to Watford for him.
What wages do you think we will have to pay to get a better player.
Do you mean another loan player or permanent.
-
He’s the latest in a long line of Lewis Guy’s
COYR
-
He is not a scapegoat. He is lazy. His positioning is poor. He fails to make runs. He plays with no energy. He barely shoots. He is cumbersome. He doesn't close down the opposition. He can't head a football. He doesn't attack crosses. The list is literally endless. He's 19 and should be busting his ass to impress and to forge a career for himself. I am genuinely lost for words with this bloke because his body language screams 'i really can't be arsed with this'.
He appears to have no obvious talent or aptitude for the game. He can't even be bothered to run.
The only thing he's half decent at is holding the ball up and laying it off.
It is about time we started blaming Wellens now because it is clear to all that bringing Cukur on will not change much and yet he keeps doing it and overlooking other young players for gametime.
-
Age is no excuse, and no excuse for not putting the effort in,
-
He is not a scapegoat. He is lazy. His positioning is poor. He fails to make runs. He plays with no energy. He barely shoots. He is cumbersome. He doesn't close down the opposition. He can't head a football. He doesn't attack crosses. The list is literally endless. He's 19 and should be busting his ass to impress and to forge a career for himself. I am genuinely lost for words with this bloke because his body language screams 'i really can't be arsed with this'.
He appears to have no obvious talent or aptitude for the game. He can't even be bothered to run.
The only thing he's half decent at is holding the ball up and laying it off.
It is about time we started blaming Wellens now because it is clear to all that bringing Cukur on will not change much and yet he keeps doing it and overlooking other young players for gametime.
Bloody hell I thought I could be negative at times but you take it to a whole new level. :facepalm: :facepalm:
-
He is not a scapegoat. He is lazy. His positioning is poor. He fails to make runs. He plays with no energy. He barely shoots. He is cumbersome. He doesn't close down the opposition. He can't head a football. He doesn't attack crosses. The list is literally endless. He's 19 and should be busting his ass to impress and to forge a career for himself. I am genuinely lost for words with this bloke because his body language screams 'i really can't be arsed with this'.
He appears to have no obvious talent or aptitude for the game. He can't even be bothered to run.
The only thing he's half decent at is holding the ball up and laying it off.
It is about time we started blaming Wellens now because it is clear to all that bringing Cukur on will not change much and yet he keeps doing it and overlooking other young players for gametime.
Bloody hell I thought I could be negative at times but you take it to a whole new level. :facepalm: :facepalm:
So i'm wrong then? Please point out the wrong bits.
-
When have we ever signed a loan player for them not to play? Other than Moore who signed too many to get in the squad. Watford won’t send him unless he’s playing and if he’s not we’ll be paying so much in extra loan fees that we could afford a decent striker of our own!
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
We’ve never been left with half a squad but no funds to fill it.
Our only option to fill it was free loans and players without a job
No funds? You reckon Rowe, Knoyle, Hiwula, Close etc are playing for fun?
-
He is not a scapegoat. He is lazy. His positioning is poor. He fails to make runs. He plays with no energy. He barely shoots. He is cumbersome. He doesn't close down the opposition. He can't head a football. He doesn't attack crosses. The list is literally endless. He's 19 and should be busting his ass to impress and to forge a career for himself. I am genuinely lost for words with this bloke because his body language screams 'i really can't be arsed with this'.
He appears to have no obvious talent or aptitude for the game. He can't even be bothered to run.
The only thing he's half decent at is holding the ball up and laying it off.
It is about time we started blaming Wellens now because it is clear to all that bringing Cukur on will not change much and yet he keeps doing it and overlooking other young players for gametime.
Bloody hell I thought I could be negative at times but you take it to a whole new level. :facepalm: :facepalm:
So i'm wrong then? Please point out the wrong bits.
No. Thought not.
-
When have we ever signed a loan player for them not to play? Other than Moore who signed too many to get in the squad. Watford won’t send him unless he’s playing and if he’s not we’ll be paying so much in extra loan fees that we could afford a decent striker of our own!
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
We’ve never been left with half a squad but no funds to fill it.
Our only option to fill it was free loans and players without a job
No funds? You reckon Rowe, Knoyle, Hiwula, Close etc are playing for fun?
We were left with 7 players after Moore got rid of them and replaced them with loan players.
With what he blew on Bogle, Williams, bostock there wasn’t enough left to fill the squad with quality league one players.
We managed the 4 you mentioned, but other than that we had to fill a squad with no money
-
The thing about Cukur is that he does not seem to have improved since his first appearance v Wimbledon. He is a bit like Alfie May in that he tries to win fouls by pretending to be pushed, tripped, kicked etc. Alfie tried to do what Marquis did so well and never completely mastered the art. Cukur has not yet progressed to the Alfie standard.
He really ought to be getting better guidance and at his age improving markedly, but is anyone working with him?
-
Wished Alfie was was here instead of cukur.
-
He’s just not up to the standard. That’s obvious. Wellens will know this more than anyone.
He chuffing signed him!
-
He is not a scapegoat. He is lazy. His positioning is poor. He fails to make runs. He plays with no energy. He barely shoots. He is cumbersome. He doesn't close down the opposition. He can't head a football. He doesn't attack crosses. The list is literally endless. He's 19 and should be busting his ass to impress and to forge a career for himself. I am genuinely lost for words with this bloke because his body language screams 'i really can't be arsed with this'.
He appears to have no obvious talent or aptitude for the game. He can't even be bothered to run.
The only thing he's half decent at is holding the ball up and laying it off.
It is about time we started blaming Wellens now because it is clear to all that bringing Cukur on will not change much and yet he keeps doing it and overlooking other young players for gametime.
Bloody hell I thought I could be negative at times but you take it to a whole new level. :facepalm: :facepalm:
So i'm wrong then? Please point out the wrong bits.
It's not wrong, it's a bang on assessment CDH. Factual rather than making players a 'scapegoat'. When I saw the thread title, I was hoping we had sent him back to his parent club early.
-
When have we ever signed a loan player for them not to play? Other than Moore who signed too many to get in the squad. Watford won’t send him unless he’s playing and if he’s not we’ll be paying so much in extra loan fees that we could afford a decent striker of our own!
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
We’ve never been left with half a squad but no funds to fill it.
Our only option to fill it was free loans and players without a job
No funds? You reckon Rowe, Knoyle, Hiwula, Close etc are playing for fun?
We were left with 7 players after Moore got rid of them and replaced them with loan players.
With what he blew on Bogle, Williams, bostock there wasn’t enough left to fill the squad with quality league one players.
We managed the 4 you mentioned, but other than that we had to fill a squad with no money
Agh been through this before i'm sure. We only had 7 players meaning we had more available budget for Wellens to spend. In theory as a new manager if your decent it's a better position to be in that inheriting a squad of 23 on 2-3 year deals from a previous regime. You can make it your own.
Of course the budget could be shite this year but i don't think it'll be in the bottom 5-6 of budgets and the noises coming from the club were along those lines i.e. not a play off budget but a consolidation season.
Have we seen enough on the pitch with the limited quality available to suggest Wellens is the right man for us long term. Right now thats a resounding no. Bolton game before their goal showed a glimpse which is about the only one there's been all season. Hopefully that's the start of better performances even if results are too much to expect right now with our squad as it is.
-
Wished Alfie was was here instead of cukur.
We let Alfie go because he is a bottom half League One/League Two player and we had ambitions to be better than that and unfortunately now he'd get in our first eleven.
-
He gave one of the best performances we've seen from a forward this season at the Keepmoat.
I mean May not Cukur obviously.
-
I went to the scummy cup game and got to see cukur quite close up. I was genuinely surprised at how big he is . Yet he seems incapable of putting it about so to speak.
Like a big teddy bear.
-
Wellens wont pick Bogle because he wouldn't do want he (Wellens) wanted.
Thereby just by being on the pitch Cukur is doing what Wellens is asking him to do.
-
Wished Alfie was was here instead of cukur.
And Blair.
-
It’s not Cukur’s fault he isn’t good enough (yet).
For all the criticism I have seen of him, Iv never agreed with those saying he doesn’t put any effort it. I just don’t think he’s ready yet.
I would send him back in January and best case get some experience in to replace him. Worst case, take a chance on someone else and hope they offer us more.
-
I would keep him and have him nearly every squad we put out this season, it’s all about opinions and that is mine
-
I would keep him and have him nearly every squad we put out this season, it’s all about opinions and that is mine
But what is that opinion based on?
-
To be fair he was applauded off like he'd scored a hat trick and ran his arse off at Scunny.
-
When have we ever signed a loan player for them not to play? Other than Moore who signed too many to get in the squad. Watford won’t send him unless he’s playing and if he’s not we’ll be paying so much in extra loan fees that we could afford a decent striker of our own!
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
We’ve never been left with half a squad but no funds to fill it.
Our only option to fill it was free loans and players without a job
No funds? You reckon Rowe, Knoyle, Hiwula, Close etc are playing for fun?
We were left with 7 players after Moore got rid of them and replaced them with loan players.
With what he blew on Bogle, Williams, bostock there wasn’t enough left to fill the squad with quality league one players.
We managed the 4 you mentioned, but other than that we had to fill a squad with no money
Agh been through this before i'm sure. We only had 7 players meaning we had more available budget for Wellens to spend. In theory as a new manager if your decent it's a better position to be in that inheriting a squad of 23 on 2-3 year deals from a previous regime. You can make it your own.
Of course the budget could be shite this year but i don't think it'll be in the bottom 5-6 of budgets and the noises coming from the club were along those lines i.e. not a play off budget but a consolidation season.
Have we seen enough on the pitch with the limited quality available to suggest Wellens is the right man for us long term. Right now thats a resounding no. Bolton game before their goal showed a glimpse which is about the only one there's been all season. Hopefully that's the start of better performances even if results are too much to expect right now with our squad as it is.
We have and I still don’t understand your point I’m afraid.
If you have a playing budget of 3 million and 2.2 million of that is already taken up by 7 players you are left with 800k to fill up the rest of your squad.
Once this has been spent you have to look for signings that are very cheap or free to make the numbers up.
-
When have we ever signed a loan player for them not to play? Other than Moore who signed too many to get in the squad. Watford won’t send him unless he’s playing and if he’s not we’ll be paying so much in extra loan fees that we could afford a decent striker of our own!
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
We’ve never been left with half a squad but no funds to fill it.
Our only option to fill it was free loans and players without a job
No funds? You reckon Rowe, Knoyle, Hiwula, Close etc are playing for fun?
We were left with 7 players after Moore got rid of them and replaced them with loan players.
With what he blew on Bogle, Williams, bostock there wasn’t enough left to fill the squad with quality league one players.
We managed the 4 you mentioned, but other than that we had to fill a squad with no money
Agh been through this before i'm sure. We only had 7 players meaning we had more available budget for Wellens to spend. In theory as a new manager if your decent it's a better position to be in that inheriting a squad of 23 on 2-3 year deals from a previous regime. You can make it your own.
Of course the budget could be shite this year but i don't think it'll be in the bottom 5-6 of budgets and the noises coming from the club were along those lines i.e. not a play off budget but a consolidation season.
Have we seen enough on the pitch with the limited quality available to suggest Wellens is the right man for us long term. Right now thats a resounding no. Bolton game before their goal showed a glimpse which is about the only one there's been all season. Hopefully that's the start of better performances even if results are too much to expect right now with our squad as it is.
We have and I still don’t understand your point I’m afraid.
If you have a playing budget of 3 million and 2.2 million of that is already taken up by 7 players you are left with 800k to fill up the rest of your squad.
Once this has been spent you have to look for signings that are very cheap or free to make the numbers up.
Not sure if that figure is just to illustrate a point but it’s clearly well wide of the mark - that would put those 7 players on £6k a week. Ed Williams, who had never played a minute of league football before joining us, is not paid anything like that. Ditto Charlie Seaman.
There are only 2 players you could genuinely say that have hindered Wellens’ ability to spend money - Bostock and Bogle. Bostock’s done OK and Bogle has been cast out. Whenever a new manager takes on a job, there are always going to be players the manager doesn’t fancy, that’s just part of football. There are two here (Bogle and Williams) and only Bogle will be on a half decent salary.
Wellens came in with a top eight budget, according to the board, and we’re second bottom. There’s a disconnect there however you look at it, and you can’t claim it’s because existing players swallowed the majority of the budget. It must be frustrating having a Bogle in the dressing room when you think you could probably get 2 decent squad players for his wage, but as handicaps go it’s not disabling.
There have been mitigating circumstances with the injuries and not being able to put a settled team out to gel but unless Gavin Baldwin is lying about what Richie has to spend, the budget isn’t one of them.
-
Is there any evidence to suggest that 'most of the budget was taken up by 7 players'? If not then this argument is based on nothing but pure speculation.
-
The way people go on about Alfie May on here you’d think he was Billy Sharp or Marquis. Did people watch him here? Great lad but no physical presence, no pace after 15 yards, poor touch for a small player and very little goal threat, he bagged up in a few cup games against non league teams which made his goal return look just bad rather than downright awful. Yes we’re awful this season and he scored against us when our defence was doing a comedy sketch but for Christ sake let it go!
-
We haven’t got a top 8 budget, you only need to look at our squad to realise that.
We’ve been told Williams was on a top league one wage,
Yes the figures were used to illustrate the point that if your budget is already taken up by players you don’t want and you still need to sign 10/11 players then of course you’re hindered.
The point about being able to build a squad is only relevant if you’ve nobody in the squad and have the full allocation of the budget
-
Quite right dickos1, nobody has every said we have a top anything budget! I really don't know why folk make these things up.
Back to Cukur, this young lad was brought in upon recommendation from Watford very likely as a result of the preseason friendly with them. He wasn't brought in as a starting no 9, but someone who needed the experience of men's football. No reason to believe he wouldn't have the same potential as any other previous loans.
Unfortunately, whilst he maybe a game lad, he lacks the off the mark pace and speed of thought that strikers need. If he hasn't got that now, he's never going to find it and I fear he will struggle to find a club a a decent level that can accommodate him in any position.
I agree with those who also think we should be looking to say to Watford, thanks but no thanks come January...unless of course, he isn't costing us a penny, but even then, I can't see him being able to make a contribution over and above our own youth players.
-
I think we all know why he's playing that's without a doubt
-
Quite right dickos1, nobody has every said we have a top anything budget! I really don't know why folk make these things up.
Back to Cukur, this young lad was brought in upon recommendation from Watford very likely as a result of the preseason friendly with them. He wasn't brought in as a starting no 9, but someone who needed the experience of men's football. No reason to believe he wouldn't have the same potential as any other previous loans.
Unfortunately, whilst he maybe a game lad, he lacks the off the mark pace and speed of thought that strikers need. If he hasn't got that now, he's never going to find it and I fear he will struggle to find a club a a decent level that can accommodate him in any position.
I agree with those who also think we should be looking to say to Watford, thanks but no thanks come January...unless of course, he isn't costing us a penny, but even then, I can't see him being able to make a contribution over and above our own youth players.
So was Gavin Baldwin making it up in August when he was quoted as saying we have the 9th highest budget in League1?
-
I certainly don't remember him saying that but I will stand corrected if he did.
-
It’s not Cukur’s fault he isn’t good enough (yet).
For all the criticism I have seen of him, Iv never agreed with those saying he doesn’t put any effort it. I just don’t think he’s ready yet.
I would send him back in January and best case get some experience in to replace him. Worst case, take a chance on someone else and hope they offer us more.
Agree Mush. I do not think it is a lack of effort. He is as you say not at the level required yet for League 1 football.
Some strikers do a lot of running and generally look very busy. Curkur is not one of those type players.
He is a big heavy lad, very different to someone like Alfie May who is small and nimble.
-
Let's take a look at the two players mentioned above. May & Cukur at the Keepmoat. Both came off the bench with complete different attitudes. May came on with intent and ready to work - his closing down & effort led him to score, win a penalty and hit the bar...he nearly got them a point against us. Cukur came on walked around and refused to close down players in the final minutes of the game. That game showed a lack of respect and effort and a great deal of self centeredness and entitlement. He's hardly pulled up any trees since then.
-
He is a target man type of player, but has to realise our crowd will forgive many things ,but not giving everything isn’t one of them .
-
Will be an interesting comparison -we got Cukur and the mighty Burton Albion got Jebbison.
-
He is a target man type of player, but has to realise our crowd will forgive many things ,but not giving everything isn’t one of them .
A target man who can't head a football or is reluctant to do so. Mmmm
-
I certainly don't remember him saying that but I will stand corrected if he did.
SM quoted him as saying it in a meeting with him.
-
When have we ever signed a loan player for them not to play? Other than Moore who signed too many to get in the squad. Watford won’t send him unless he’s playing and if he’s not we’ll be paying so much in extra loan fees that we could afford a decent striker of our own!
In Jan we have to send him back. Use whatever money he is costing us to sign someone better, we need better if we are to stay up.
We’ve never been left with half a squad but no funds to fill it.
Our only option to fill it was free loans and players without a job
No funds? You reckon Rowe, Knoyle, Hiwula, Close etc are playing for fun?
We were left with 7 players after Moore got rid of them and replaced them with loan players.
With what he blew on Bogle, Williams, bostock there wasn’t enough left to fill the squad with quality league one players.
We managed the 4 you mentioned, but other than that we had to fill a squad with no money
Agh been through this before i'm sure. We only had 7 players meaning we had more available budget for Wellens to spend. In theory as a new manager if your decent it's a better position to be in that inheriting a squad of 23 on 2-3 year deals from a previous regime. You can make it your own.
Of course the budget could be shite this year but i don't think it'll be in the bottom 5-6 of budgets and the noises coming from the club were along those lines i.e. not a play off budget but a consolidation season.
Have we seen enough on the pitch with the limited quality available to suggest Wellens is the right man for us long term. Right now thats a resounding no. Bolton game before their goal showed a glimpse which is about the only one there's been all season. Hopefully that's the start of better performances even if results are too much to expect right now with our squad as it is.
We have and I still don’t understand your point I’m afraid.
If you have a playing budget of 3 million and 2.2 million of that is already taken up by 7 players you are left with 800k to fill up the rest of your squad.
Once this has been spent you have to look for signings that are very cheap or free to make the numbers up.
That's not whats happened though. You don't understand the point i'm making because you don't want to which is weird.
Would our club which is by all accounts very well run sign off on Moore having 7 players on over 70% of our budget? Of course not so what your saying is just plain wrong. Wellens won't have a better chance to build his own side that the last summer window where as a total budget he'll have had a far greater percentage unallocated than he'll have a again if he manages to stay in the job.
Ok Bogle and Williams are on more than they should be but as a club Wellens has come into they, and Butler, were the only real legacy issues Wellens had. Not bad really imo.
And yes i know it's not a huge budget but it's certainly better than our league position or do you disagree with that also?
-
I certainly don't remember him saying that but I will stand corrected if he did.
SM quoted him as saying it in a meeting with him.
I don't think he did but again, I may be wrong.
GB nor anyone has ever said what the budget was or where it may or rank in public for this season. The message has always been the same about rebuilding and consolidating or words to that effect.
People may have gone on and say they've heard this or that, and even guessing where our budget might rank.
In any event, even if it had been publicised, I have no doubt people would not believe it.
-
That’s the way I’ve read things DBR
-
A regular goal scorer is generally lightning quick over five to ten yards, not necessarily quick over say thirty yards or more.
Coupled with an in built instinct for “knowing where the ball is going to arrive”.
Cukur doesn’t appear to have this.
-
Sunderland Ipswich Portsmouth Wigan Plymouth Rotherham Bolton Charlton Sheffield Wednesday. Probably those then us so not far off 9th. Quality on the pitch unfortunately hasn't reflected this and there probably is a couple of players in our squad on league 1 wages not earning their money so far this season.
-
Gavin Baldwin said on Radio Sheffield when he talked about the budget that it was more than last year as last year was 23% less then normal. He also said next years budget will be more and will be in the top half of the table. Therefore this years budget will be below half way certainly not 9 th.
Richie also said recently that majority of the budget was on players already here before he could get players in. That’s was 9 plus the six young players given a contract
-
After listening to Wellens’ press conference and him talking about reviewing all the loans when their break clause comes into play I will be very surprised if Cukur stays beyond January.