Article 50

[Hounslowrover]

One of my friends said he was voting leave because of sovereignty.  When I see him again I'll ask why the white paper says we've had full sovereignty when in the EU.  Another 'misleading' piece of information from the leave side.

[idler]

Not all Brexiters are racists,stupid or xenophobic.
In our time in the EU we have seen the demise of our fishing industry. The mining,steel and engineering industries have gone. We no longer have a British car industry just plants producing foreign models.
BT and the GPO privatised along with the power and water industries and again foreign ownership. We have seen reductions in the numbers of police, firemen and the armed forces. There are a lot of people amongst those that have seen their future and pensions destroyed. Maybe some felt that their only chance to be heard was to show their frustration by voting out. There were many very well educated people also advocating leaving.

Just about all of those retrograde steps you have listed there Idler were entirely the doing of UK governments, nothing to do with the EU.  Which probably explains why those who wanted to remain are so pissed off at the total nonsense spoken about regaining British sovereignty.

I never said that the EU were responsible, just that all of these things happened whilst we were members of it.
Being part of a big club didn't save our jobs, would it in the future?

[Bentley Bullet]

Not everyone thinks the EU is blameless......

https://tinyurl.com/jet98sc

[Lipsy]

Idler, not that I am suggesting that you were blaming the EU for those things. However, A LOT of people did. I saw the utterly ridiculous list of things that the EU was supposed to be responsible for that did the rounds before the vote - and it was utterly riddled with lies. I know, because I actually bothered to check it and go through them.

Sadly, a lot of people are more than happy to take things at face value.

BB - Redwood as a source of accurate info without any spin. Do me a favour.

[Bentley Bullet]

Lipsy, how are you qualified to say that everything you believe is true, and everything you don't believe is lies?

[idler]

Lipsy a lot of people did suffer during our period of membership. They might feel that being in the EU did nothing to save many of our industries.
The amount of responsibility shared by MPs and MEPs Might be debatable
but a smirking Dave and George threatening people didn't help.
I expected a remain outcome but feel both campaigning  sides were next to useless. Maybe a 60/40 requirement might have had more backing but at the end of the day Cameron got the vote that he wanted and promptly ran away. Whichever side of the fence you are on we were badly let down.

[Lipsy]

Lipsy, how are you qualified to say that everything you believe is true, and everything you don't believe is lies?

All I was saying is that it is perfectly possible to fact check. To go to the source of the facts rather than, say, read Redwood's biased b*llocks.*

*Other b*llocks media is available - from all sides of the argument.

[Bentley Bullet]

So where do you get the true facts from?

[Hounslowrover]

Interesting about our industries, especially steel with the dumping of cheap Chinese steel with Tory MEPs voting against stopping it againgst EU wishes.  We need to look at government policies before blaming the EU.

[Lipsy]

Yup, that's one of the things that we did with steel... But certain corners would have you believe we should be blaming the EU when the truth is a little murkier than that. Similar thing with fishing, in fact. Not that I am - for a single second - saying that the EU is perfect. Far from it, in fact.

BB - lots of things are recorded and can be found online. The money we send to the EU, for example. It's just a matter of bothering to track it down for yourself... I tend to treat most things with an amount of scepticism - regardless of source. The sad fact is that most news outlets are almost completely unreliable because they have an agenda. This whole fake news thing that we're bleating on about regarding the US is hilarious - we've been gripped by the same thing for many, many years. I don't believe necessarily that I know THE TRUTH, but I do at least bother to check and re-check and question what I see and read.

[hoolahoop]

I never told you to shut up, I suggested that you should live with it. If you're content to come across as someone stamping his feet in a tantrum because you've not got your own way then that is entirely your prerogative.

Why should we " live with it  " BB tell me why ? Had the result gone the other way , you would have had the same right wing fascists pushing the Tory Party another Referendum STILL . Fact is lies were told, exaggerations made and little or no spade work done to then rush into all of this was utter madness .

MPS told to vote for it completely against their political instincts and consciences simply because they had 'agreed' to have a Referendum in the first place was pure folly . Why have MPs let's all vote on Facebook or other Social Media ?

Sorry like Glyn and those that might have lost this argument from the other side had things been different; we are ALL entitled to our opinions . The LEAVE campaign had been fighting this argument for over 40 years but we were  supposed to give up within months ! Yes they went for a 2nd Referendum too !

Yes admittedly it was the biggest vote for anything ever but there was also the greatest vote AGAINST anything ever based on one binary choice. Sounds ridiculous now given the complexity of all the European organisations we are a member of.

In our opinions as labelled " Remoaners  " ( see what you did there right from the start  ? ) , the Referendum was foolhardy, simplistic and the result was brought about by blatant lies and driven through as fast as possible before the inevitable backlashes start to occur . Promises about the economy are yet to be seen and the costs of withdrawing to the poorest in our society are yet to be felt . Once we have paid the divorce bill we can seek out trading partners who can continue the rape and pillaging of our best industries and brands benefitting from a weak £

Rant over for now but just as a matter of interest check your P60s  and see how little in real terms it cost to stay in this trading club.
Arr lass , who earned a little over £ 20,000 last year donated the princely sum of  £ 32  last year as her gross cost of being in the EU .....Check out the costs lads as they are winging their way through your post boxes anytime now.
Yes 61pence a week !!

All that for all those increased costs of  travel/ insurance, health cover in the EU  , price of household goods , guaranteed modern working practises, guarantees on food labelling/ Quality  etc etc. and many many more benefits . Yes the EU Development spend in the DMBC was in excess of £ 180 million - do you expect that money to ever come our way now ?
That's what we are about to trade away in exchange for NOTHING except putting your trust in the Far Right Tory grandees running the show now .Even those in the Tory party are manipulated by them and our area voted for this !!

Yes I'm bitter with a youngster at University who like many others will find many opportunities  now closed to her and her age group . She being 18 in the August was denied a vote which possibly will impact on the rest of her career . Unlike the Scottish Referendum it was thought that English, Welsh and Irish kids had no right to voice their opinions on what would be their futures

At least we will have the extra £ 350 million per week to spend on our under- funded NHS  eh lads oh and a rip- roaring trade deal with 'the' Donald and other wonderful states to look forward to.

[Bentley Bullet]

So what do you suggest we do then Hoola?

[hoolahoop]

Not everyone thinks the EU is blameless......

https://tinyurl.com/jet98sc

Oh you refer to John Redwood , the biggest t**t of them all feck me .
All that blog says is that we failed to look after our own industries whilst others in the EU Managed to look after theirs . Perversely BB  you illustrate the point that we failed as a country to protect and invest , use our oil revenues properly whilst other EU countries principally  the Germans managed to take advantage of the benefits of membership

We squandered our chance to invest in the future and are simply miles behind our other ex Northern European partners . Why is that the fault of the EU and not successive Governments. 

Next you will be telling me you read the rubbish in the Daily Mail / Express ?

[Bentley Bullet]

Hoola.

I voted to remain also. I was in the minority. I lost the vote.

Now as far as I'm concerned the way forward is to accept the majority vote. It's the only way forward. That process includes looking closer at the views of the brexiters, and moving forward with them.

[hoolahoop]

So what do you suggest we do then Hoola?

Too late friend , the game is lost and we head for a generation of Tory rule now that we have done the political equivalent of self harming.

I don't know what we can do , this I'm afraid is over to you and your lying toe rag of a mate John Redwood to sort out.

Please don't wish for a collapse of the EU though as that will only bring about more economic misery - many are to justify their actions and out of some sort of malice.

I will be long dead before we recover from this shite , btw did you check your tax return ?

[hoolahoop]

Hoola.

I voted to remain also. I was in the minority. I lost the vote.

Now as far as I'm concerned the way forward is to accept the majority vote. It's the only way forward. That process includes looking closer at the views of the brexiters, and moving forward with them.

Sorry friend I do accept it , unhappy with the way it was brought about and the reasons for the Referendum in the first place but I have no other choice but to accept it however our MPs should not have accepted it so easily knowing all the pitfalls - we want to disassociate ourselves from anything that starts with "Eur" and seem to think that the European Court of Justice is something obscene. How has it directly or indirectly affected our lives ffs ?
Anyway all the answers remain hidden , no amendments at all went through the HoC......do you not wonder why ? No official government risk assessments will be made available in other words this Tory government holding a slim majority looks as though they can do as they please.

If anything goes wrong it will be blamed on the EU or the " will of the people " Talk about a blank cheque book at a time when we have major problems in the NHS , Education, Prisons, Housing,  Defence,  Railways need I go on .....

[Bentley Bullet]

Talking about malice, let's also hope that remain voters aren't hoping for economic misery by wishing an anti-Trump protest might deter his future investment in the UK, just to justify their remain vote as being the correct one.

[hoolahoop]

Bentley I have a vested interest in hoping that it goes right because , like it or not, all Remainers and their children want the best for this country. Failure is not an option , things might  be more difficult but no-one would take any joy in seeing detrimental effects on either the UK or the EU . I see posts hoping or predicting the demise of the EU but I must admit I don't understand the rationale behind them . It only makes negotiations with our friends and neighbours much more difficult

On the basis that it was the younger people of this country that voted Remain , it is to be hoped that they are capable of digging themselves out of the hole they have been buried in .

They have no other choice for at least a generation  by which time many of the Leavers will be long dead.
Who knows how the world will have changed in that time

[Bentley Bullet]

Hoola
We all have a vested interest in hoping that it goes right, that is what we should all be focusing on.
you say "  all Remainers and their children want the best for this country". Don't you think all brexiters do also?

[IDM]

Absolutely that. In spades. "We" have voted to make the poor poorer and the rich richer. And I tire of hearing people blame the EU for things that our Government(s) are to blame for. I don't want to get into name calling, but the amount of ignorant, stupid, and just plain daft claims from some Leave voters is incredibly frustrating. We had that dopey banana bint on BBCQT this week, and a friend of mine told me this week that he voted Leave because he thought Remain would win, but he was hoping the EU would change its way, and even if Leave won the EU would come back to us with a new offer and we'd stay.... The mind boggles. I am sure all you Leave voters on here totally understood all the implications of leaving the EU and voted in good conscience, etc. But I can tell you that 95% of all my conversations with Leave voters have left me worried about the state of this country and how stupid and/or manipulated by fake news people are.

No one understood the implications of leaving, so folks voting to remain or to leave may have voted according to their consciences and that's fair enough.  But without a government defined and agreed exit strategy "just in case" in place and publicised before  the vote, who the hell could possibly know what Brexit would mean?

Remain would have meant at the very least maintaining the status quo, then campaining for reforms within the EU, if required.

Before anyone tells me to get on with it, to accept it etc of course I accept the result but hell yes I disagree with it!  But that is for the reason I outline, how could we be expected to vote properly for an outcome that wasn't defined??

For sure, if the brexit strategy had been known in advance, then the result may have even seen a larger leave majority, but a result based upon honesty and a defined exit strategy would be much more understandable and acceptable.

My argument applies to both side of the fence - what Brexit was going to mean should have been defined. 

Who on here - from either side of the fence - can tell me what the fate of my German relatives living in the UK will be after Brexit??

No-one?? No, didn't think so - and neither can the government, unless I have missed it..

[Lipsy]

IDM - I only said that so as to not get into the whole "I knew full well what I was voting for" argument with anyone. I also don't have the wherewithal to go over too many of the arguments I have had with people about all of this, nor did I want to insult anyone on here. What I will say is this: I voted to remain and I am STILL learning about the EU and how enmeshed we are with Europe and EU rules, etc. The more I read and learn, the more afraid I am about our future...

Still, people got "their" country's sovereignty back, which is nice. Oh wait...




Anyway, I hear you. As far as I am concerned, the Tories pulled off their coup and can now set about destroying many of the things we cherish about this country. Mark my words, the poor will get poorer and their mates will get fat. And if you don't like it, they can turn around (as they are doing now) and say that they are merely adhering to the will of the people. So if you voted to leave then don't go moaning about what the Tories are doing...

[IDM]

I picked your line to quote as it highlighted a point that is one of my serious concerns - no one knew what they were voting for.

If the brexit strategy had guaranteed residency for EU citizens already here (legitimately) then I may well have been tempted to vote leave, if the other arguments had been convincing.

[hoolahoop]

I picked your line to quote as it highlighted a point that is one of my serious concerns - no one knew what they were voting for.

If the brexit strategy had guaranteed residency for EU citizens already here (legitimately) then I may well have been tempted to vote leave, if the other arguments had been convincing.

Apparently they all knew what they were voting for and it seems were far better informed than both the experts and of course our MPs. Like you I don't believe that anymore than you do - so many imponderables, so many organisations to extract ourselves from and too many organisations to set up once again in our own right . Then we can truly regain Sovereignty oh and we have got to sort some trade deals out . On the basis that we currently have few natural resources, at best a shite manufacturing export base and the wherewithal to even negotiate trade deals we are basically fecked.

Unless we can secure our financial place in the world we lack muscle of any sort. Still we have our sovereignty , we no longer will be a member of any serious European joint enterprise beit  Euratom, Erasmus, The Space station and you have to wonder what will happen to the Eurofighter etc  ?

Almost forgot we have ''soft'' power and a nuclear deterrent .

[Lipsy]

I hear you, hoolahoop, I really do.

[hoolahoop]

I hear you, hoolahoop, I really do.

Thanks Lipsy , do you feel my pain it seems some on here love the idea of charging out into the world and shouting " we' re here , we're back  " and then wonder why everyone walks around with their fingers in their ears singing lalalalala ad infinitum now and again stopping to whisper under their breath " hmm see they are back again the Empire - certainly not turning round and dropping our trolleys for them again ! "

[hoolahoop]

Where is BST i would love to hear his take on all this

[Filo]

I picked your line to quote as it highlighted a point that is one of my serious concerns - no one knew what they were voting for.

If the brexit strategy had guaranteed residency for EU citizens already here (legitimately) then I may well have been tempted to vote leave, if the other arguments had been convincing.

Apparently they all knew what they were voting for and it seems were far better informed than both the experts and of course our MPs. Like you I don't believe that anymore than you do - so many imponderables, so many organisations to extract ourselves from and too many organisations to set up once again in our own right . Then we can truly regain Sovereignty oh and we have got to sort some trade deals out . On the basis that we currently have few natural resources, at best a shite manufacturing export base and the wherewithal to even negotiate trade deals we are basically fecked.

Unless we can secure our financial place in the world we lack muscle of any sort. Still we have our sovereignty , we no longer will be a member of any serious European joint enterprise beit  Euratom, Erasmus, The Space station and you have to wonder what will happen to the Eurofighter etc  ?

Almost forgot we have ''soft'' power and a nuclear deterrent .

The experts told us after the brexit vote FTSE would crash, investments would go down and basically the world would end, yet here we are, not a year has gone by since the referendum and FTSE has flourished, and speaking from a personal level my investments have performed better since the referendum than in the previous 3 years! It's a good job I did n't listen to the experts and withdrew my money eh?

[IDM]

But you are paying a lot more for petrol/diesel since the £ dropped dramatically against the $ after the referendum?

Loads of factors effect investments, but that is not my concern.

Are my relatives going to be deported, or not?????

[Bentley Bullet]

Petrol is the same price as it was in September 2015.

[idler]

But you are paying a lot more for petrol/diesel since the £ dropped dramatically against the $ after the referendum?

Loads of factors effect investments, but that is not my concern.

Are my relatives going to be deported, or not?????

The sensible thing IDM would be to allow all EU nationals currently working/legally living here to stay. UK nationals having the same right to stay and or work in the EU.