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Serious question here but wasn’t the vote back in 2016 to leave or remain?I don’t recall there being an option available to leave but to stay in the CU and SM.
Quote from: drfchound on June 12, 2022, 08:26:15 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 12, 2022, 08:23:12 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 11:08:11 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .Simple being the operative word.What was the other option Glyn, apart from remain of course.Leave the EU but remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. I'd have been extremely happy with that as an outcome of a No vote I'd been warning about the consequences of leaving the SM and CU well before the referendum took place. But I got told I didn't know what I was talking about, or smeared as being Project Fear.That was the other option, and it wouldn't have been contrary to the Referendum result.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 12, 2022, 08:23:12 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 11:08:11 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .Simple being the operative word.What was the other option Glyn, apart from remain of course.
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 11:08:11 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .Simple being the operative word.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .
So Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 12:35:14 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on June 12, 2022, 11:41:15 amEven one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.Heroes ??That's interesting given I didn't emigrate to the other side of the world to settle in a country that's had a right wing government for 20 of the last 26 years and with it some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world .Makes you wonder who your heroes are Syd .Maybe you're not a racist but you appear to be a xenophobe tyke and therefore not acceptable here so that bit's academic.
Quote from: SydneyRover on June 12, 2022, 11:41:15 amEven one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.Heroes ??That's interesting given I didn't emigrate to the other side of the world to settle in a country that's had a right wing government for 20 of the last 26 years and with it some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world .Makes you wonder who your heroes are Syd .
Even one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 12, 2022, 08:30:11 pmQuote from: drfchound on June 12, 2022, 08:26:15 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 12, 2022, 08:23:12 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 11:08:11 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .Simple being the operative word.What was the other option Glyn, apart from remain of course.Leave the EU but remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. I'd have been extremely happy with that as an outcome of a No vote I'd been warning about the consequences of leaving the SM and CU well before the referendum took place. But I got told I didn't know what I was talking about, or smeared as being Project Fear.That was the other option, and it wouldn't have been contrary to the Referendum result.Yes, I understand what you mean but was that an option when we voted. I only remember Leave or Renain being the options.
Quote from: drfchound on June 12, 2022, 04:25:28 pmSerious question here but wasn’t the vote back in 2016 to leave or remain?I don’t recall there being an option available to leave but to stay in the CU and SM.Just like there wasn't an option to leave the SM or CU either. It wasn't voted on so there was no mandate for either option.And that is the main reason there should have been a second referendum so that whatever option the government decided shpould have got that mandate from the British people.
The claim that the 2016 referendum decision was not a mandate to leave the Single Market is the single worst, most invidious lie in recent British political history.A lie that doesn't just threaten an overturn, by stealth, of a democratic vote but citizen's faith in politicians and democracy and faith in the purest form of democracy - the referendum.For those with foggy memories the historical evidence from the referendum campaign is clear. Let's take, for instance, interviews on the UK's premier political interview program of the time the Andrew Marr show: -With leader of the Remain campaign David Cameron 12/6/16: Cameron "What the British public would be voting for, if we leave, would be to leave the EU and leave the Single Market"De facto leader of the Leave campaign Boris Johnson 5/6/16: Marr "I had Michael Gove in that chair and I asked after Brexit will we be in the Single Market yes or no. He said no". Johnson "And he was right". Marr "So we won't be in the EU Single Market?" Johnson "Absolutely".To ignore, forget or misremember this evidence and claim otherwise to meet a political agenda is nothing short of despicable. To campaign to rejoin, without a referendum, the Single Market on the basis of this pernicious lie is equally despicable. The very epitome of 'post-truth'.I have no problem with people who campaigned or voted to Remain in the EU, though I disagreed with them. I'd have no problem with people campaigning for a referendum to rejoin the EU. That is the honest, decent path Remainers/Rejoiners should have the moral courage and respect for democracy to follow.
Quote from: drfchound on June 12, 2022, 08:33:28 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 12, 2022, 08:30:11 pmQuote from: drfchound on June 12, 2022, 08:26:15 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 12, 2022, 08:23:12 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 11:08:11 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2022, 10:59:37 amSo Tyke, given the fact that Iceland, Switzerland and Norway are inside the SM and outside the EU, do you still want to stick to that line that the 2016 vote was an explicit mandate to leave the SM?Run it by me how that logic goes.As I keep repeating I and clearly millions more took the referendum to mean leave the EU in its entirety .Simple as that .Simple being the operative word.What was the other option Glyn, apart from remain of course.Leave the EU but remain in the Single Market and Customs Union. I'd have been extremely happy with that as an outcome of a No vote I'd been warning about the consequences of leaving the SM and CU well before the referendum took place. But I got told I didn't know what I was talking about, or smeared as being Project Fear.That was the other option, and it wouldn't have been contrary to the Referendum result.Yes, I understand what you mean but was that an option when we voted. I only remember Leave or Renain being the options.And neither of those options gave any mandate at all about the CU or SM. Tyke is trying to BS everybody that it did.
Quote from: SydneyRover on June 12, 2022, 12:43:07 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 12:35:14 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on June 12, 2022, 11:41:15 amEven one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.Heroes ??That's interesting given I didn't emigrate to the other side of the world to settle in a country that's had a right wing government for 20 of the last 26 years and with it some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world .Makes you wonder who your heroes are Syd .Maybe you're not a racist but you appear to be a xenophobe tyke and therefore not acceptable here so that bit's academic.Unfortunately Syd those are the kind of playing the last card retorts that make you look like a complete idiot when it comes to political debate , instead of playing an ace you played the Joker .The politics of the so called Progressive Left which is the tribe you tend to stick your hat on are the people of " the right thing to do " or " it's the decent thing to do " when it comes to the subject of immigration .Except the " Right Thing To Do " isn't necessarily right politically .Immigration also comes with problems .The EU policy of open borders I find extremely dehumanising , a pool of 450m workers available to the top hats across Europe the majority of the cheap Labour variety lends itself to the citizens of anywhere ready to move around Europe filling in market shortages so the man with the Top hat on continues to keep the majority of the wealth created for himself without so much as leaving his top floor office .Why should you expect your morning coffee on the High Street to be prepared for you by a migrant , is that your reality ? .This trend then places downward pressure on wages , when there is an abundance of anything the price goes down , basic economics .Not only that it then creates a lack of enthusiasm in governments , you could even call it laziness to not skill up and train it's workforce .I've mentioned in the past the pressure it creates on our NHS , schools and housing I've no need to underline that .So " The Decent Thing To Do " doesn't necessarily reconcile with reality and can make things worse .I'll actually take the xenophobic comment on the chin because it says much more about you than it does me .
So when, before the referendum, Farage, Johnson and lots of others campaigning for the Leave vote were saying that it didn't mean that we would leave the SM and that the Norwegian option (ie in the SM but not the EU), you knew they were lying to you.
Unfortunately Glyn it's my opinion that it was yourself who were subject to BS by the politicians and Establishment as soon as the result came through .This talk emerged following the confirmation of the result and the narrative was changed , changed to leaving in name only if they could get away with it .Two options Do you want to remain in the EU ? , which meant every aspect of EU membership .So what is the exact opposite of that in the second option then ?Do you want to leave the EU ?I mean c'mon how simple do you want it ?
Unfortunately Glyn it's my opinion that it was yourself who were subject to BS by the politicians and Establishment as soon as the result came through .This talk emerged following the confirmation of the result and the narrative was changed , changed to leaving in name only if they could get away with it .
Branton - your evidence that the Leave campaign(s) were adamant that a No Vote meant leaving the CU & SM is: the Remain Campaign and that noted purveyor of truth & honesty, Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson - saying something different to one tv programme that he said in another.You must have loads more than that if it was so clear?There is a Fact Check saying they rarely mention it and weren't clear when they did to help you:https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 08:54:26 pmUnfortunately Glyn it's my opinion that it was yourself who were subject to BS by the politicians and Establishment as soon as the result came through .This talk emerged following the confirmation of the result and the narrative was changed , changed to leaving in name only if they could get away with it .Exactly correct - the pejorative term 'Hard' Brexit and cuddly 'Soft' Brexit were invented after the referendum together with the lie that vote did not mandate leaving the Single Market.
Quote from: Branton Red on June 12, 2022, 08:48:26 pmThe claim that the 2016 referendum decision was not a mandate to leave the Single Market is the single worst, most invidious lie in recent British political history.A lie that doesn't just threaten an overturn, by stealth, of a democratic vote but citizen's faith in politicians and democracy and faith in the purest form of democracy - the referendum.For those with foggy memories the historical evidence from the referendum campaign is clear. Let's take, for instance, interviews on the UK's premier political interview program of the time the Andrew Marr show: -With leader of the Remain campaign David Cameron 12/6/16: Cameron "What the British public would be voting for, if we leave, would be to leave the EU and leave the Single Market"De facto leader of the Leave campaign Boris Johnson 5/6/16: Marr "I had Michael Gove in that chair and I asked after Brexit will we be in the Single Market yes or no. He said no". Johnson "And he was right". Marr "So we won't be in the EU Single Market?" Johnson "Absolutely".To ignore, forget or misremember this evidence and claim otherwise to meet a political agenda is nothing short of despicable. To campaign to rejoin, without a referendum, the Single Market on the basis of this pernicious lie is equally despicable. The very epitome of 'post-truth'.I have no problem with people who campaigned or voted to Remain in the EU, though I disagreed with them. I'd have no problem with people campaigning for a referendum to rejoin the EU. That is the honest, decent path Remainers/Rejoiners should have the moral courage and respect for democracy to follow.Funny int it?When the Remain campaign said that a vote to Leave would damage our economy, put the GFA at risk and endanger European solidarity and embolden Putin, the Brexit Death Cult insisted that was all Project Fear. But when Cameron said that Leave meant leaving the SM, he was the very Oracle itself.
Being able to remain in the Single Market after Brexit isn't a lie though.If you and Tyke want to imagine that voting to leave the EU also de facto meant leaving the SM, go right ahead. But don't try to force that fantasy on the rest of the country.PS Membership of the CU isn't dependent on membership of the EU either. Just ask Turkey - and they're not members of the SM at the same time.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on June 12, 2022, 09:15:17 pmBeing able to remain in the Single Market after Brexit isn't a lie though.If you and Tyke want to imagine that voting to leave the EU also de facto meant leaving the SM, go right ahead. But don't try to force that fantasy on the rest of the country.PS Membership of the CU isn't dependent on membership of the EU either. Just ask Turkey - and they're not members of the SM at the same time.Of course you can be out of the EU and in the SM and/or CU.That's not my point. My point is what was clearly and categorically framed in the referendum campaign - a vote to leave meant leaving the SM.How about answering the below question "So when, before the referendum, Farage, Johnson and lots of others campaigning for the Leave vote were saying that it didn't mean that we would leave the SM and that the Norwegian option (ie in the SM but not the EU), you knew they were lying to you."Please provide evidence of this being said by prominent Leave campaigners during the the official campaign period for the 2016 referendum from 15 April 2016 until the day of the poll on 23 June 2016 to support your point.
The campaign is irrelevant regarding any mandate, that only comes from the referendum itself when people actually placed their vote. Were was the question about the SM or the CU on the ballot paper?
''Brexit Would Increase Security Threats To Britain, Former Top Military Leaders Warn In Letter''''A British exit from the European Union would limit the UK’s capacity to deal with international dangers, including the threat from members of the so-called Islamic State group and the rise of Russian nationalism under Vladimir Putin, according to top former military commanders.In a letter to the Telegraph newspaper on Wednesday, the former top brass highlighted the “grave security” risks facing Europe, which they said the UK would be better able to deal with as part of the EU.https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/23/brexit-increase-security-threats-britain_n_9302886.htmlRussian nationalism, who'd have thought ...............
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 08:35:52 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on June 12, 2022, 12:43:07 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 12, 2022, 12:35:14 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on June 12, 2022, 11:41:15 amEven one of your heroes Tyke has recently admitted the best thing that could be done with bexit is to delay it. For all the bluster from your leader, johnson hasn't got it done by a long chalk, there is a long way to go yet and none of it is looking good.Heroes ??That's interesting given I didn't emigrate to the other side of the world to settle in a country that's had a right wing government for 20 of the last 26 years and with it some of the most restrictive immigration policies in the world .Makes you wonder who your heroes are Syd .Maybe you're not a racist but you appear to be a xenophobe tyke and therefore not acceptable here so that bit's academic.Unfortunately Syd those are the kind of playing the last card retorts that make you look like a complete idiot when it comes to political debate , instead of playing an ace you played the Joker .The politics of the so called Progressive Left which is the tribe you tend to stick your hat on are the people of " the right thing to do " or " it's the decent thing to do " when it comes to the subject of immigration .Except the " Right Thing To Do " isn't necessarily right politically .Immigration also comes with problems .The EU policy of open borders I find extremely dehumanising , a pool of 450m workers available to the top hats across Europe the majority of the cheap Labour variety lends itself to the citizens of anywhere ready to move around Europe filling in market shortages so the man with the Top hat on continues to keep the majority of the wealth created for himself without so much as leaving his top floor office .Why should you expect your morning coffee on the High Street to be prepared for you by a migrant , is that your reality ? .This trend then places downward pressure on wages , when there is an abundance of anything the price goes down , basic economics .Not only that it then creates a lack of enthusiasm in governments , you could even call it laziness to not skill up and train it's workforce .I've mentioned in the past the pressure it creates on our NHS , schools and housing I've no need to underline that .So " The Decent Thing To Do " doesn't necessarily reconcile with reality and can make things worse .I'll actually take the xenophobic comment on the chin because it says much more about you than it does me .Maybe then you shouldn't throw insults around if you're so thinned skinned tyke and while you're at it tell me what isn't xenophobic about discounting someone's views be cause of where they happen to live, you ape others on this site have been doing it for some time. It's uncanny how they have similar opinions.This is regardless that your argument is baseless and fact free. That everything you apparently stand for gets washed away because of your vote or non-vote doesn't seem to register with you at all. With an tanking economy, how is that going to help those on the bottom rung? Why don't you explain how your vote has changed Britain for the better and why you didn't see any of this slow train wreck happening, it was predicted. Please try and keep it simple old chap.