Ukraine

[Dutch Uncle]

The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.

Axholme - full context has to be applied here. Anything else is misleading, dangerous and insulting.

NATO Operation Deliberate Force in 1995 was launched in response to Bosnian-Serb atrocities like the Srebenica massacre and specifically and directly following the deadly mortar attack on Sarajevo marketplace on 28 August 1995. It was targeted mainly on Bosnian-Serb Air Defence Systems and infrastructure, and led directly to the Dayton Accords which instigated peace and subsequent successful NATO peacekeeping operations (IFOR/SFOR) which over time allowed peace and stability to return to Bosnia and the end of the terrible reign of Karadzic and Mladic. This has rightly been hailed as a great success and saving and improving many many lives.

It is something I followed particularly closely for a very long time.

[bahrain rover]

I just want to say I have been reading all the comments and not one ounce of empathy for the innocent population of Ukraine. Only your own petty squabbling, in safe old Donny/UK and how it will effect you, shame!!. How many of you know what stress they are under? How many of you actually have hear or witness war as a civilian? (I am aware several are ex-military, I don't include you) I have and in the last 2 weeks here are home in the BARMM region of Mindanao, I have hear the thud that mortars, the sound of a 50mm tank mounted gun. Actually carrying an assault rifle? I am not looking for response or anything else, just be glad it aint you as you sit down to your tea and Emmerdale.

[normal rules]

Jens stoltennerg keeps dodging the question about NATO troops in Ukraine.
Which is a concern.
A f**king big one.

[normal rules]

Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.

[Dutch Uncle]

I just want to say I have been reading all the comments and not one ounce of empathy for the innocent population of Ukraine.

Quite right Bahrain. I feel enormous sympathy for all Ukrainians, but am guilty as charged for not expressing it earlier. 

[normal rules]

This conflict will possibly pull Finland and Sweden towards NATO membership. Finland in particular is a vulnerable country. Rich in natural assets and strategically important with its coastline on the Baltic.

[DRFC_DonnyRed50]

Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.

But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea

Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.

NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.

[normal rules]

Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.

But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea

Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.

NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.

It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.

[Filo]

Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.

But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea

Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.

NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.

It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.

The probable threshold for Nato going in is an attack on a Nato member, there are reports of missles landing 70km from Poland

[ravenrover]

David Davis has just said the RAF should give the Ukrainians air support.

Madness.

That Tobias Elwood had a rush of blood to the head also earlier suggesting we should deploy troops into Ukraine. What a whopper.

Did he actually say that? The interview I saw he said NATO should have put troops into Ukraine 6 months ago as a peace keeping mission and perhaps that would then have made Putin think twice

[normal rules]

Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.

But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea

Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.

NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.

It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.

The probable threshold for Nato going in is an attack on a Nato member, there are reports of missles landing 70km from Poland

Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.

But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea

Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.

NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.

It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.

The probable threshold for Nato going in is an attack on a Nato member, there are reports of missles landing 70km from Poland

Yep. One stray missile and we are all f**ked.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM

I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.


Politics is  about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?


And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.

But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea

Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.

NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.

It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.

I think you're overplaying the strategic aspect here. Putin is invading Ukraine because he needs to teach it a lesson that it will be controlled by Russia. He cannot have a successful, West-looking Ukraine. Not because it is a military threat to him. Because it would show up what a failed gangster state he was presiding over.

It's really that. He's a mob boss exerting his authority so that his authority doesn't get questioned.

[MachoMadness]

Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta is being printed in Russian and Ukrainian as a sign of dissent against the war, and its editor is openly criticising Putin. I can't fathom how brave you have to be to do that. This guy has painted a massive target on his back now.

[normal rules]

Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta is being printed in Russian and Ukrainian as a sign of dissent against the war, and its editor is openly criticising Putin. I can't fathom how brave you have to be to do that. This guy has painted a massive target on his back now.

The proverbial turkey voting for Xmas.
I doth my cap to his bravery.
But wonder at his stupidity.

[BillyStubbsTears]

David Davis has just said the RAF should give the Ukrainians air support.

Madness.

That Tobias Elwood had a rush of blood to the head also earlier suggesting we should deploy troops into Ukraine. What a whopper.

Did he actually say that? The interview I saw he said NATO should have put troops into Ukraine 6 months ago as a peace keeping mission and perhaps that would then have made Putin think twice

He said it last week. And he said the MoD wanted to do it.

He was a bell end when I knew him as a student and he hasn't changed. 35 years ago he was as thick as a bucket of monkey spunk and his batshit suggestion of us putting boots on the ground suggests that not much has changed.

 Bizarrely, he's seen as once of the intellects in the Tory party these days.

[normal rules]

David Davis has just said the RAF should give the Ukrainians air support.

Madness.

That Tobias Elwood had a rush of blood to the head also earlier suggesting we should deploy troops into Ukraine. What a whopper.

Did he actually say that? The interview I saw he said NATO should have put troops into Ukraine 6 months ago as a peace keeping mission and perhaps that would then have made Putin think twice

Yep.there’s a video of him on 17 feb saying exactly this. He alluded to it in his interview again this morning saying it’s too late and I said what needed to happen blah blah.
But he was a Royal Green Jacket. An infantry captain,
Lions led by donkeys.

[Filo]

While all eyes are on Ukraine keep an eye on China and Taiwan

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM

I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.


Politics is  about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?


And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?

Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Whereas instead we're in a grand place now. War has happened anyway, and Johnson has given plenty of warning to the kleptocrats to move their funds out of the UK before we impose controls on them.

[SydneyRover]

The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM

I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.


Politics is  about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?


And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?

Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.

I'll accept I may be wrong but have you ever voted labour pud?

[Nudga]

My customer was on the phone to a work colleague from the Ukraine this morning and the call cut out.
A few hours later the guy from Ukraine messaged him to say that everything shut down for a bit and that he'd had the call for conscription and he had to go to the town hall to collect a rifle.
This is guy is an IT nerd, not a soldier.

[normal rules]

Champions league final confirmed as being moved from st Petersburg.
This is a good start.
Now kick Russia out of the World Cup and impose a unilateral ban on them taking part in any football competition in the west .
Sport should be about bringing people together.
Now is the time to use football as a powerful sanction.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM

I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.


Politics is  about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?


And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?

Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.

I'll accept I may be wrong but have you ever voted labour pud?

Yes, my local labour councillors largely do a good job.

[Metalmicky]

Champions league final confirmed as being moved from st Petersburg.
This is a good start.
Now kick Russia out of the World Cup and impose a unilateral ban on them taking part in any football competition in the west .
Sport should be about bringing people together.
Now is the time to use football as a powerful sanction.

They should be totally ostracised from all sport - even the sports they repeatedly cheat in - and travel to and from Russia should be severely constricted..

We should also restrict the travel of the Russian senate members who voted this through - albeit, with a possible 'vacation' in Siberia if they had objected.  Hit the people that are close to Putin and effectively imprison them in Russia - decline them their jet-set social western lifestyles and there will soon be some uncalm amongst his nearest and dearest.

[SydneyRover]

The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM

I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.


Politics is  about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?


And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?

Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.

I'll accept I may be wrong but have you ever voted labour pud?

Yes, my local labour councillors largely do a good job.

So you would not have supported the Brown government that went on to save the UK economy and knowing that presumably voted them out for a couple of wide boys that went on to do their best to trash the economy and then deliver brexit and jellyback johnson that has been protecting putiin's thugs in London. In a nutshell.

[normal rules]

Iron curtain.

Two words I have not heard in a long long time.
Our younger generations won’t know what this means. And I hope they don’t get to know what it entails.

[Colin C No.3]

Champions league final confirmed as being moved from st Petersburg.
This is a good start.
Now kick Russia out of the World Cup and impose a unilateral ban on them taking part in any football competition in the west .
Sport should be about bringing people together.
Now is the time to use football as a powerful sanction.

They should be totally ostracised from all sport - even the sports they repeatedly cheat in - and travel to and from Russia should be severely constricted..

We should also restrict the travel of the Russian senate members who voted this through - albeit, with a possible 'vacation' in Siberia if they had objected.  Hit the people that are close to Putin and effectively imprison them in Russia - decline them their jet-set social western lifestyles and there will soon be some uncalm amongst his nearest and dearest.

We should have boycotted the Beijing Olympics.

Was it a mere coincidence that the Russians waited (apologies if this has been mentioned elsewhere) until the Olympics had finished before invading the Ukraine?

[wilts rover]

The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM

I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.


Politics is  about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?


And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?

Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.

And Johnson has been a resounding success has he?

I put a link up the other day to the sanctions and measures McDonnell would have put in place against Russian oligarchs and Russian money laudering in London. These were:

Oligarch Levy to tax secret offshore purchases of UK residential property
Magnitsky Clause to apply sanctions against human rights abusers
Tighten Politically Exposed Person regime
Extend the beneficial ownership register for Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories and end anonymous trusts
Implement Unexplained Wealth Orders to confiscate illegally-obtained wealth
Resource Companies House to properly investigate dubious company

Johnson did none of these. Instead he relaxed rules, allowed more oligarchs in, accepted £millions in donations to the Tory Party and refused to implement the measures set down in his own Report on Russian Interference (which he has yet to release fully - why would that be?) Thats without the alleged Russian money and backing for Brexit.

Putin has funded Johnson because Johnson was the PM he wanted. He knew he would be useless, divisive, corruptable and allow him what he wanted.

Corbyn's Labour campaigned against Russia. Johnson let them in. Its just fact - even if you dont like it.

[SydneyRover]

''Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer urged the PM to bring in laws to stop oligarchs buying UK firms and property.

But Mr Johnson said no government could "conceivably be doing more"''

Could have done a lot more, should have done a lot more, emergency parliament sitting to pass new laws? nah put it off till spring.