Ukraine

[DRFC_DonnyRed50]

I agree with Bob, I think Putin needs a way out of this and a way to save face.

I think the west should agree to let Russia remain in Crimea and Ukraine commit to not joining NATO. Appeasement? Not really the Russians have sustained significant casualties. I don't think Putin would embark on anything like this again. Basically offer him the status quo, let him go back to how things were.

He's an old man now, there is the possibility things might change in Russia after his death. Particularly if Ukraine is an example to the Russians of a succesful nation within the EU.

I would agree that recognition of Crimea as part of Russia would be an acceptable concession to make. Also, the announcements of referendums for the two breakaway regions overseen by international, independent observers.

However, Russia should have no say in what Ukraine chooses to do regarding EU/NATO. A potential concession could be on the condition that Ukraine does join NATO, no foreign troops or missiles will be allowed into Ukraine unless they are attacked. It defeats Russia's argument that NATO is a threat and reinforces it's position as a defensive alliance.

[River Don]

I agree with Bob, I think Putin needs a way out of this and a way to save face.

I think the west should agree to let Russia remain in Crimea and Ukraine commit to not joining NATO. Appeasement? Not really the Russians have sustained significant casualties. I don't think Putin would embark on anything like this again. Basically offer him the status quo, let him go back to how things were.

He's an old man now, there is the possibility things might change in Russia after his death. Particularly if Ukraine is an example to the Russians of a succesful nation within the EU.

And if a bunch of countries decided that Russia could have England?

Well that's a very big if isn't it.

The Russians took Crimea quite a long time ago now and it wasn't something that the people in Crimea particularly protested about. It wasn't right I know.

But if we want to give this a chance to deescalte Putin needs a way out. If they just say to him, no get out and by the way get out of Crimea too,  I very much doubt he'd be able to accept that, this war would be a total failure so the war would have to continue until he felt he'd won something.

[SydneyRover]

Still only 5 days in RD, do you want to deliver the bad news to the fighters on the front line?

[Axholme Lion]

The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator

Say's the man on a n island 12,000 miles away.

[SydneyRover]

The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator

Say's the man on a n island 12,000 miles away.

Says the local fascist, I'm hoping this means a really fast change over to electric cars.

[Bentley Bullet]

The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator

Say's the man on a n island 12,000 miles away.

My wife had looked after her mother, now departed, for the last 20 years or more. She has a sister who has lived in Scotland since the '80s, who rang up regularly to offer advice on how to look after her properly.

Now, in my experience, there are two types of potential reactions to that scenario. There are people who, like my wife, would bite their lip and let off steam AFTER she put the phone down, or there are people who, like me, would simply tell her to f**k off and refuse to talk to her again.

[SydneyRover]

Are you saying you're with those throwing up the white flag little Britisher?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator

Aye, we all died, all our kids, grandkids died.  But hey we stuck two fingers up at Putin.

Thank god that time is not here now and not at all likely to be but to get out of this mess we will in all likelihood have to give Putin something.

[Axholme Lion]

The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator

Say's the man on a n island 12,000 miles away.

Says the local fascist, I'm hoping this means a really fast change over to electric cars.

Where's the electricity going to come from?
Where you're living you should be more concerned about China than Russia.

[SydneyRover]

The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator

Aye, we all died, all our kids, grandkids died.  But hey we stuck two fingers up at Putin.

Thank god that time is not here now and not at all likely to be but to get out of this mess we will in all likelihood have to give Putin something.

And when you've given the Ukraine away and putin says, 'I've got nuclear weapons' again, which everyone knew anyway and he says 'I'll have Estonia this time' you say what exactly?

[River Don]

There is a fairly plausible theory about Putin and his state of mind.

That is he is using anabolic steroids to keep his muscle tone and physique going into his old age.

That would account for his slightly puffy looking face. It would give him moods swings and become more prone to anger.

[River Don]

Still only 5 days in RD, do you want to deliver the bad news to the fighters on the front line?

I doubt the majority of Ukrainians would see a ceasefire as bad news. Far from it.

[SydneyRover]

Still only 5 days in RD, do you want to deliver the bad news to the fighters on the front line?

I doubt the majority of Ukrainians would see a ceasefire as bad news. Far from it.

I'm not talking about the ceasefire RD I'm talking about support for them crumbling away already.

[River Don]

If anything Syd I only see support for the Ukrainians growing, particularly in the EU.

[SydneyRover]

If anything Syd I only see support for the Ukrainians growing, particularly in the EU.

Exactly which is why I'm a bit confused as to why there should be talk on here about giving anything away so early, lessons should have been learned from brexit and poker, you don't give up the game as soon as it gets serious, you don't telegraph your moves, resign from the game and then make demands.

[River Don]

If anything Syd I only see support for the Ukrainians growing, particularly in the EU.

Exactly which is why I'm a bit confused as to why there should be talk on here about giving anything away so early, lessons should have been learned from brexit and poker, you don't give up the game as soon as it gets serious, you don't telegraph your moves, resign from the game and then make demands.

It's not a case of giving up. It's finding a way to stop the killing and prevent this from escalating.

We are dealing with an aging unstable man who happens to be in charge of the world's second most destructive arsenal.

[Not Now Kato]

It appears Roman is trying to help out with the peace talks
 
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-698891
 
A former supporter and close friend of Putin.  Interesting.

[rich1471]

There is a fairly plausible theory about Putin and his state of mind.

That is he is using anabolic steroids to keep his muscle tone and physique going into his old age.

That would account for his slightly puffy looking face. It would give him moods swings and become more prone to anger.

I used to work with someone who took steroids one minute he was fine then he would flip,get paranoid and want to fight anybody

[SydneyRover]

If anything Syd I only see support for the Ukrainians growing, particularly in the EU.

Exactly which is why I'm a bit confused as to why there should be talk on here about giving anything away so early, lessons should have been learned from brexit and poker, you don't give up the game as soon as it gets serious, you don't telegraph your moves, resign from the game and then make demands.

It's not a case of giving up. It's finding a way to stop the killing and prevent this from escalating.

We are dealing with an aging unstable man who happens to be in charge of the world's second most destructive arsenal.

There's nothing there I don't understand RD, except that 'concessions' that you talked about earlier cannot be gained at the table unless resolve is shown. Do you think there would even be talks if the Ukraine had not put up such a fight and the world had not joined together in such an unprecedented way?

[River Don]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

[Metalmicky]

Russia bans flights from airlines in 36 countries

A quick news update for you now as Russia has announced it is banning flights from airlines in 36 countries, including the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy and Canada.
It follows a decision by the EU to ban "Russian-owned, Russian-registered or Russian-controlled aircraft" from its airspace.
The UK also banned Aeroflot flights from landing in Britain, prompting Russia to announce an earlier retaliatory ban on British airlines.

[SydneyRover]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?

And of course a complete withdrawal.

[DRFC_DonnyRed50]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?

And of course a complete withdrawal.

He'll have to. The alternative is a long drawn out war which Russia can't win, with it making them a lot poorer on the side.

Gaining the Crimea and the breakaway regions are the best he can hope for.

[SydneyRover]

But you've already suggested he's a nutter on drugs?

[drfchound]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

They aren’t RD.   SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.

[SydneyRover]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

They aren’t RD.   SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.

This is a fairly serious conversation I would have thought even for you hound, either join it a f**k off

[drfchound]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

They aren’t RD.   SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.

This is a fairly serious conversation I would have thought even for you hound, either join it a f**k off

Are you a self appointed moderator now.
Abuse on this forum should be more strictly controlled.

[SydneyRover]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

They aren’t RD.   SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.

This is a fairly serious conversation I would have thought even for you hound, either join it a f**k off

Are you a self appointed moderator now.
Abuse on this forum should be more strictly controlled.

No one has controlled your years of trolling, grow up

[drfchound]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

They aren’t RD.   SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.

This is a fairly serious conversation I would have thought even for you hound, either join it a f**k off

Are you a self appointed moderator now.
Abuse on this forum should be more strictly controlled.

No one has controlled your years of trolling, grow up

Says the biggest troll on the forum.  Is your self importance to the future of Europe keeping you up tonight.
Just asking as I’m concerned about your welfare.

[SydneyRover]

I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.

If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?

And of course a complete withdrawal.

He'll have to. The alternative is a long drawn out war which Russia can't win, with it making them a lot poorer on the side.

Gaining the Crimea and the breakaway regions are the best he can hope for.

This is the thing drfc your cannot expect a reasonable response from someone that doesn't see reason, you and I and most on the forum can see that but if putin was reasonable this wouldn't be happening.