Ukraine

[DonnyOsmond]

do you know for sure what day it is hound?

Are comments like this really needed?

[SydneyRover]

do you know for sure what day it is hound?

Are comments like this really needed?

I understand what you mean DO  but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.

[drfchound]

It might be worth reading my post about the Lusitania Syd. About 1340 from memory.

The whole point of secret services is just that. They are secret. In the case of the Lusitania for a helluva lot of people that secret still stands today - more than 100 years later. Of course they're not going to publicise mire than is strategically useful. And in any evento, their role is principally yo sdvifse their poitical masters. What they do with the Intel is the question we should ALL be asking... Ive Made it plain times many that our polítical leaders were appraised of the nature of Putin 10 years ago and more.
.It is política that has les us tov where we are today. Not secret services.

BobG

I did read your comment and am fully across the role of the service. If you look at the comments above it looks as though some appear to want to claim insider knowledge rather than what is gleaned from the papers. My point is if the service were fully across all this information, why wasn't it passed onto the government? more likely they did know and did pass it on and are exposed yet again as lazy, greedy and incompetent and have to be dragged kicking and screaming into properly helping refugees and sanctioning their sponsors. As you say or imply all this should have been ready to go not death by a thousand cuts.

As with my comment before same thread asking why these oligarchs are now being sanctioned, because nothing has changed in the past couple of weeks, they have been aiding and abetting a dictator and murderer.

Who has claimed to have insider knowledge.

[wilts rover]

Most of this page Syd

BobG

Put simply, NR who knows all about the security services tells us we have men in putin's uppermost circles, therefore unless the security services exist for their own amusement must have passed all this forward to our government, therefore our government would know about all things russia from the invasion of Ukraine to dirty money and have sat on their hands and watched and waited for it to happen all the while doing nothing.

Or, to put even more simply - did the flow of Russian money into the City of London, fund and embolden Putin in his political ambitions?

If yes - why did the Tory Party allow this to happen

If no - why have they sanctioned people then

And there is plenty of reading material out there freely available without MI5 agents reports.

[wilts rover]

As for Military Intelligence - here is todays briefing from the MOD giving an update on the situation on the ground in Ukraine saying among other things that Kharkiv remains surrounded:

https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1502533211523538944

And here is someone on the ground with contacts in Kharkiv saying it is not and has never been surrounded - the roads to the south and west are still open:

https://twitter.com/RolandOliphant/status/1502564144322682880

[River Don]

Putin is now arresting (not sacking, arresting) leaders of the FSB for failed intel that led him to war.

As some smart folk have said, he went into this war completely misunderstanding what would happen. Now he's venting his wrath on his secret services.

I wonder what they are planning in return?

This is quite interesting, apparently Putin was fuming that he hadn't been given a true picture of what the situation in Ukraine was like. This had lead to this massive miscalculation.

And the reason he didn't get accurate intelligence? His security services had become too afraid and tended to tell him what he wanted to hear.

[River Don]

With the whole debate about what did we in the west know, I think we probably knew quite a lot but as NR points out kept it close to our chests.

That said, in the Months before this invasion, they took the unusual decision to start releasing information to the public and all of what they predicted has turned out to be right.

[SydneyRover]

I don't doubt at all that the 'services' knew what was coming RD but what the government knew would be much greater in orders of magnitude and for far longer, the question is why didn't they get dressed and start working on all the things they should have been doing over the past couple of weeks? Even if they didn't have to implement sanctions and allow for the flow of refugees they should have been ready. We have seen how putin works, a war of terror.

[normal rules]

The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support  across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.

[drfchound]

do you know for sure what day it is hound?

Are comments like this really needed?

I understand what you mean DO  but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.

But, but, but, it wasn’t me sir, it was him.
Pathetic Syd.
It is clearly obvious that you don’t have me blocked because of the number of times you pile in when I query anything you have written.
Just be honest and answer questions, it is so easy to do and far less stressful.
No one will take offence if you do.

[drfchound]

The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support  across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.

Precisely NR, which was what I had alluded to further up the thread.
None of us mere mortals had a clue about what the intelligence people knew or indeed what had been passed on the government.

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't doubt at all that the 'services' knew what was coming RD but what the government knew would be much greater in orders of magnitude and for far longer, the question is why didn't they get dressed and start working on all the things they should have been doing over the past couple of weeks? Even if they didn't have to implement sanctions and allow for the flow of refugees they should have been ready. We have seen how putin works, a war of terror.

As NATO Sec Gen Stoltenberg repeatedly said , we can know all the troop movements, and indicators like blood being moved forward, and what this could mean in terms of capability for launching an invasion at very short notice, but we can never be sure for certain what is actually the intent in Putin's head. The intelligence may well trigger us to take precautionary measures, and then if we are lucky Humint might give an indication when a decision to launch has actually been taken, but Putin has been a past master at making moves that looking threatening and not going ahead.   

[normal rules]

One thing is for certain. Conflicts like this are so huge in terms of information, that Putin simply cannot manage it alone.
That means he has to have trusted confidants at his Side advising and directing their next moves.
And the more people he has in this chain, the more people will get to know his intentions. And that is where the weak links are, that international intelligence agencies will be exploiting.
We may not get to what what is actually going on in his head. But he will be discussing his intentions with others. He has to. One man does not control the whole military effort of a huge nation such as Russia.

[Ldr]

do you know for sure what day it is hound?

Are comments like this really needed?

I understand what you mean DO  but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.

Syd, we can have disagreements without them becoming feuds

[tyke1962]

The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support  across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.

Precisely NR, which was what I had alluded to further up the thread.
None of us mere mortals had a clue about what the intelligence people knew or indeed what had been passed on the government.

To be fair Hound the intelligence regarding the invasion of Ukraine was pretty much spot on in the weeks leading up to it .

I suspect nobody took it as serious as they probably should have done but none the less the intelligence was totally accurate .

Which makes me wonder if we have agents or possibly double agents inside Putin's circle .

I've absolutely no idea of course and i can only speculate but if there's one thing this country is good at it's having top draw secret services even if the politicians are too dumb to listen to them .......... Or conflicted as the case may be even ??

Food for thought maybe .

[drfchound]

The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support  across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.

Precisely NR, which was what I had alluded to further up the thread.
None of us mere mortals had a clue about what the intelligence people knew or indeed what had been passed on the government.

To be fair Hound the intelligence regarding the invasion of Ukraine was pretty much spot on in the weeks leading up to it .

I suspect nobody took it as serious as they probably should have done but none the less the intelligence was totally accurate .

Which makes me wonder if we have agents or possibly double agents inside Putin's circle .

I've absolutely no idea of course and i can only speculate but if there's one thing this country is good at it's having top draw secret services even if the politicians are too dumb to listen to them .......... Or conflicted as the case may be even ??

Food for thought maybe .

Tyke, I don’t doubt for one minute that the intelligence people were on the ball.
I would expect that to be the case.
I have no idea why Syd took such a weird stance against my post about what information was or wasn’t fed back to the government.
I think it was reasonable to suggest that the average person wouldn’t have a clue about what was coming back to them.

[drfchound]

do you know for sure what day it is hound?

Are comments like this really needed?

I understand what you mean DO  but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.

Syd.  I have just read this post of yours.
I think you are being very harsh in suggesting I have feuds all over the forum.
I have different opinions to some other posters of course but I can also suggest that they have different opinions to me.
So who is wrong there?
I take it you don’t highlight other posters who have continued differences of opinion.
Take BST for example who piles into any post by Dickos.
Is he having a feud or making a different opinion.
Filo and myself have had a series of differences on here on the off topic section but neither of us have ever got abusive or got to the “having a feud” state.
On the other hand, I have received quite a bit of personal abuse from you over time, calling me things like leg shagger for example and only yesterday, dribble hound.
I would suggest that you take a look in the mirror before calling me out.

[normal rules]

This is just a footy forum.
But I do wonder how some on here would cope if a Ukraine situation  was ever imposed on the uk.
Hypothetical of course, but some people really need to have a good look at themselves.
Moan, criticise, mock, question, argue, insult, berate, seems to be a default for some on here. 
I’m the first to moan when the team are not performing, but I try my very best to not go head to head with strangers on here.
I always told my sons, never say or do anything to anyone online that you would not do or say in their presence. Face to face.
I met a charming chap and his Mrs at the boozer pre match at wimbledon. Me and my lad sat and had a beer with them. He realised through convo who I was as I suggested that boozer as a meet up. He said he enjoyed reading the waffle i put on here.
Ask yourself this. If some of you on here met in person would you be friendly with each other? Because I get the distinct impression some of you would want to kick the crap out if each other.
And that just does not seem right.

[SydneyRover]

There is a case to be made for the tory party itself to be sanctioned.

[SydneyRover]

Point by point examination of circumstances.

The intelligence report on Russia. (from wiki)

By June 2020, the report had still not been released, and the Intelligence and Security Committee had not been convened, the longest gap since the committee's creation in 1994.[13] This prompted a cross-party group of 30 MPs to urge the committee to be reconstituted and the report to be published, writing that serious issues of "transparency and integrity" of the democratic process were raised by the withholding of the report.[13]

According to the report, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in British politics is commonplace.[3][4] According to the Guardian, the main points of the report are:[2]

UK government failed to investigate evidence of successful interference in democratic processes

‘Credible open-source commentary’ suggesting Russia sought to influence Scottish independence referendum

Russian influence in the UK is ‘the new normal’

Links between Russian elite and UK politics

Intelligence community ‘took its eye off the ball’ on Russia

UK’s paper-and-pencil voting system makes direct interference harder

Defending UK’s democratic processes is a ‘hot potato’

Errors in Salisbury poisoning and weapons watchdog hack do not diminish Moscow threat
New legislation needed to replace outdated spy laws.

The report describes the United Kingdom as one of Russia's "top targets" and said it is "seen as central to the Western anti-Russian lobby".[16]

Since the government had not authorised any investigation into the matter, the committee found no evidence that Russian interference had affected the Brexit referendum. Any such attempt without specific authorisation was not within the purview of British intelligence services as any such actions by the security services themselves could be seen as interference, itself undermining democracy.[17]

However, the report did discover some evidence of co-ordinated interference in online narratives following the 2014 Scottish independence referendum in efforts to spread uncertainty over the result.[18][19][20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.

[tyke1962]

There is a case to e made for the tory party itself to be sanctioned.

Yes it's called a GE Sydney .

You can vote for who you want and nobody at the polling station will influence you .

Long may that be the case .

Unless you want the Russian way and elect a Labour government .

Just saying like .........??

[SydneyRover]

''Johnson's government refused to release the report to the public before the general election in December 2019.[

The Prime Minister approved its release on 13 December 2019, the day after the general election''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.

[drfchound]

Does this have something to do with the Ukraine SR or should it be on a separate thread.
Asking in a nice polite way.

[SydneyRover]

do you know for sure what day it is hound?

Are comments like this really needed?

I understand what you mean DO  but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.

Syd, we can have disagreements without them becoming feuds

then it's not me you should be addressing this to, aye Ldr

[SydneyRover]

''Conservative Friends of Russia group disbands with immediate effect
After 10 years of operation, the Westminster Russia Forum, formerly known as the Conservative Friends of Russia, has suddenly disbanded''

''London is undisputed the global capital for Russians to launder money. In 2008, The UK government’s golden visa scheme was launched to allow the wealthiest people a fast track to British citizenship. A mere £2m got you and your family settled status in five years. For the super-wealthy, a mere £10m got you and your family there in just two years. This visa scheme was of concern to many. The project was insecure with worries around the efficiency of checks made on origins of wealth.

Parliament’s intelligence and security committee recommended in its Russia report, published in July 2020, that there should be an “overhaul” of the golden visa programme. Nothing happened.

A foreign affairs select committee report, produced four years ago, endorsed by Priti Patel as a backbench member, said ministers were risking national security by “turning a blind eye” to Russian “dirty money” flowing through the City of London. Yet again, the government took no action''

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/politics/conservative-friends-of-russia-group-disbands-with-immediate-effect/

[SydneyRover]

Andrew Adonis twitter

“The Westminster Russian forum, previously “Conservative friends of Russia” which lobbied for pro Russia funding for cash for Conservative MPs & party operations is being wound up”

Its list of donors should be published and handed to the police and sanctions advisers
3:23 PM · Mar 5, 2022''

[tyke1962]

''Johnson's government refused to release the report to the public before the general election in December 2019.[

The Prime Minister approved its release on 13 December 2019, the day after the general election''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.

Sydney I'm not going to even make a case for the fact the Tory Party is absolutely swimming in dirty Russian money .

The Russian money was called out years ago by Jeremy Corbyn and nobody listened .

My point is the left that I come from may not win elections but history tends to be on our side .

Dependency on imports , Scargill told you so .

We aren't electable but don't whinge to me .

[SydneyRover]

Andrew Adonis

''Vitally important that Boris Johnson today give an undertaking that the Conservative Party will ensure that donor details of the “Conservative Friends of Russia”, just wound up after raising tens of millions for the party, are not destroyed. Vital Ukraine sanctions data here
7:52 PM · Mar 5, 2022·Twitter for iPhone''

hmmm 'tens of millions' for the tory party, what a lot of money and influence

[SydneyRover]

''Johnson's government refused to release the report to the public before the general election in December 2019.[

The Prime Minister approved its release on 13 December 2019, the day after the general election''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.

Sydney I'm not going to even make a case for the fact the Tory Party is absolutely swimming in dirty Russian money .

The Russian money was called out years ago by Jeremy Corbyn and nobody listened .

My point is the left that I come from may not win elections but history tends to be on our side .

Dependency on imports , Scargill told you so .

We aren't electable but don't whinge to me .

it was you that posted this not five minutes ago Tyke?

''Unless you want the Russian way and elect a Labour government''

[drfchound]

I noted that the UKs golden visa scheme was launched in 2008.
Who brought that rule in then?