Ukraine

[BobG]

He is a symbol of everything that is wrong with our capitalist world. Selfish, immoral, corrupt. I know these behaviours aren't any direct result of capitalism, but that's  the world we live in, and that's the behaviours we see. So it's either humanity in general, in which case we might as well give up now, or it's time for a change to our system.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

So Hungary has made its choice. It has sided with a fascist thug even when he attacked their next door neighbour.

There will be consequences.

[SydneyRover]

I guess if russia has been just as helpful in UK votes and elections ...............

[BobG]

Another thought. If a bunch of motivated untrained civilians, a good small army and good supply lines can knock the stuffing out of a decently large Russian army what does that imply about the future of conflict?

It's not so easy to visualise this being tried again in its current form.  So what is the future? Robosoldiers?  Space blackmail? Cyber? I bet there's some very serious analysis and thinking going on around the world right now.

BobG

[SydneyRover]

Reports of horrendous finds in relieved towns war crimes at their worst

This is disgusting with a count likely to be in the hundreds, there are no excuses, we cannot allow them to get away with these crimes, we cannot possibly allow the russians to attach the word success to this war.

[BobG]

But if we don't, Sydney, that pushes Putin into a serious corner. I doubt very much if anybody here, or on this planet, wants to do that. There's more than one way to skin a cat. His time will come.

BobG

[normal rules]

Another thought. If a bunch of motivated untrained civilians, a good small army and good supply lines can knock the stuffing out of a decently large Russian army what does that imply about the future of conflict?

It's not so easy to visualise this being tried again in its current form.  So what is the future? Robosoldiers?  Space blackmail? Cyber? I bet there's some very serious analysis and thinking going on around the world right now.

BobG

The drone fleet of the us and uk alone would obliterate the entire Russian ground army with little or no resistance. In very little time.
The west are way way ahead of their combat tech, not just in drones, but in every other major military advancement.
While ever he has access to the big red button though, we must remain very very cautious.
It’s worth repeating a comment Putin made not long ago:
“ a world without Russia would not be worth living in”

[Stocksbridge Owl]

Another thought. If a bunch of motivated untrained civilians, a good small army and good supply lines can knock the stuffing out of a decently large Russian army what does that imply about the future of conflict?

It's not so easy to visualise this being tried again in its current form.  So what is the future? Robosoldiers?  Space blackmail? Cyber? I bet there's some very serious analysis and thinking going on around the world right now.

BobG

The drone fleet of the us and uk alone would obliterate the entire Russian ground army with little or no resistance. In very little time.
The west are way way ahead of their combat tech, not just in drones, but in every other major military advancement.
While ever he has access to the big red button though, we must remain very very cautious.
It’s worth repeating a comment Putin made not long ago:
“ a world without Russia would not be worth living in”

This is spot on. Some weeks ago there was a fascinating programme on the radio where they compared UK, NATO, Russian and Chinese forces. The UK, though obviously much smaller, was light years ahead of both the Russians and Chinese in terms of technology, response capabilities and future advancement. As quoted above, the drone fleet of the UK is enough to cause devastation when directed against any army in the world. Marry this capability with the other NATO countries and you've got a hugely powerful force that absolutely no other country in the world could come close to competing against. Armed conflict isn't a numbers game anymore; a force relatively light on manpower can beat a much larger force comprehensively if it has the necessary technology and (this is the important bit) people skilled enough to use it effectively. And this is what makes the UK and USA stand out. Even the majority of other NATO countries are behind the UK and USA when it comes to this. I've no doubt at all that if Russia puts one boot into a NATO country, much of their force would be destroyed before it left the barracks. However, as Normal correctly states, while Russia has the Nuclear option, we must tread carefully.

[normal rules]

The news reported yesterday that Russia has lost an incredible amount of tanks in the last few weeks. 360 lost, half of which were either abandoned or captured.
And the factory that produces them no longer has parts to make more.
Take Putins land Army away from him and he will become a very cornered rat.

[Dutch Uncle]

Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.

Very interesting question.

While NATO seems to have tolerated, however squeamishly, Erdogan because of Turkey’s strategic importance, Turkey is not a member of the EU.

So that might suggest Hungary might find relatively muted criticism within NATO, but might the EU threaten Hungary with expulsion?

[SydneyRover]

Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.

Very interesting question.

While NATO seems to have tolerated, however squeamishly, Erdogan because of Turkey’s strategic importance, Turkey is not a member of the EU.

So that might suggest Hungary might find relatively muted criticism within NATO, but might the EU threaten Hungary with expulsion?

The EU brains trust must be in overdrive on this very question, if they dump them out Russia will will chalk that one up.

[normal rules]

Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.

Very interesting question.

While NATO seems to have tolerated, however squeamishly, Erdogan because of Turkey’s strategic importance, Turkey is not a member of the EU.

So that might suggest Hungary might find relatively muted criticism within NATO, but might the EU threaten Hungary with expulsion?

Making Hungary a vassal  state would almost certainly open a door for Putins global game of risk he seems to be playing. Hungary is an odd one. They are happy to take refugees , but not supply arms. NATO and the EU will want to stand firm and continue to show a United front will be the overarching feeling in Brussels though IMO. Any sign of weakness in the union will be exploited by the Kremlin.

[River Don]

The news reported yesterday that Russia has lost an incredible amount of tanks in the last few weeks. 360 lost, half of which were either abandoned or captured.
And the factory that produces them no longer has parts to make more.
Take Putins land Army away from him and he will become a very cornered rat.

Incredibly a lot of parts and weapons the Russian military uses are manufactured in Ukraine.

Apparently a lot of their missles use propulsion systems manufactured in Ukraine. Chances are they have been blowing up these factories.

[SydneyRover]

The world, the part of it that wants this to stop has to get tougher with sanctions which would play a big part in deterring any other rogue nation from doing similar.

[River Don]

Guess what? It's all our fault!

Vladimir Solovyov, the Western sanctioned popular state presenter on his Sunday night talk show said that the killings were planned by Britain.

“The war against Russia entered a new phase today. Very soon they’ll accuse us of genocide. To all appearances this whole provocation was plotted by the British,” Solovyov said.

[normal rules]

He has made his name on that talk show spreading vile misinformation about the west and Europe.

Yet he owns two mansions on the Amalfi coast he now cannot visit.

Cry away chump.

[Donny Dub]

Victor has just been elected again by his people.  He sticks up for his country and their values.  He knows what’s best for them and doesn’t care what anyone thinks of him.  I like him.

[River Don]

Victor has just been elected again by his people.  He sticks up for his country and their values.  He knows what’s best for them and doesn’t care what anyone thinks of him.  I like him.

You and Mr Putin.

Mr Orban has rewritten the constitution, filled the top courts with his appointees and changed the electoral system to his advantage, he also prevents the opposition from having fair access to the media and uses state funds to pay for his campaign.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.

Very interesting question.

While NATO seems to have tolerated, however squeamishly, Erdogan because of Turkey’s strategic importance, Turkey is not a member of the EU.

So that might suggest Hungary might find relatively muted criticism within NATO, but might the EU threaten Hungary with expulsion?

Dutch.

The idea seems to be to show tolerance to Hungary, rather than push them further into Putin's clutches.

Seems to me Hungary is behaving like a stroppy teenager. Wants to be independent and play with the tough kids down the road. Tells its parents to f**k off on a regular basis. But still wants the X-Box and the mobile phone driving lessons and the holidays paid for.

I think it's getting mightily close to time for some tough love. If Hungary really  wants to idolise the rough kids, it's time to tell them unequivocally then need to make a decision whether to stay under the EU roof or move in with Russia. One or the other. After this war, you cannot play both sides anymore.

[danumdon]

But don't you think that the rushed enlargement of the EU fostered this attitude from the Hungarians, they know they can have all the toys and  dad wont take them away for fear of them running off to bad uncle Vlad. I know the British pushed for this enlargement of the EU to get all the former soviet countries into the club so as to promote future prosperity and openness when really wanting to dived and rule the union from within, bit this has done us or the EU no favours in the long run.

The association agreement for these eastern states should of been over a longer time frame to allow the gradual opening up and equalising of their markets and economy. It seems that the Hungarian public have decided that they quite like playing off the EU, i would be very surprised if the Commissioners don't start to change the rules very soon to prevent this happening in the numerous accession candidate states.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No I don't think Hungary has behaved like it had done because...EU.

If that was the reason then Romania and Estonia and half a dozen more would be cosying up to Russia.

And they are not.

Hungary is doing so because they gave power to a nasty would-be fascist who sees Putin as his big brother, and whose popularity is built on overt racism and baiting the liberal democracies of Western Europe.

I think it's now time to tell them to walk the f**king walk to be honest.

[Branton Red]

Very tricky one for the EU to play this.

After all the Hungarian people have made their decision in a free democratic election.

Also I believe a majority of the Hungarian populace is in favour of continued EU membership.

[normal rules]

Two members of the European parliament said they expected the European Commission to launch the “rule of law conditionality mechanism” against Hungary, a legal process that could ultimately switch off billions in EU payments to Budapest

[normal rules]

Biden has come out again and called Putin a War criminal.

That’s going to leave a very unpleasant taste in Putins mouth. Again.
If he ever becomes sought by the International Criminal Court, there will be many countries he will never ever be able to safely step foot in ever again.
He will become another Saddam Hussein, another Ratko Miladic. Another Radovan Karadic.
Never again will he step foot on European soil.
He will have to be careful on any luxury Yacht he sails on too in future.
International waters won’t be safe for him.
His huge world will start becoming very very small.
The walls are closing in on him.
The rat is getting cornered.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's really not difficult Branton. Hungary is only "democratic" if you think democracy comprises nothing more than having elections.

Orban has neutered the judiciary and the media. He has given himself sweeping powers to rule effectively by diktat.

The EU has been in a position for several years where it could have, if it wished, taken punitive action against Hungary as a member state flouting basic democratic norms. It has not done because it preferred the arm round the shoulder to the kick up the arse.

Now that Hungary has re-empowered a Poundland fascist, it's time for a very, very big kick up the arse.
.the Hungarians want to be in the EU? Fine. Start behaving like a civilised democracy then. Otherwise, the door eastward is there and you can shut it behind you on the way to Moscow.

[wilts rover]

Whilst Hungary is a political embarrasment the main country the world need to be leading on now is India. Refused to impose sanctions, doing a massive amount of trade with Russia (in which certain UK politicans are personaly benefiting) they two now seem to be conspiring to get around Russia's Swift ban. Putin, Orban, Modi, all the fascist's together.

https://www.ft.com/content/a5ee2d6b-693f-475d-80c6-0036c2657ef1

[BillyStubbsTears]

Some stuff beyond words or nightmares coming out of Mikolayiv. Russian soldiers are claimed to have murdered 4 women from a family after raping a 3 year old.

Horrific. Just horrific. I thought we had left this barbarism behind.

[tommy toes]

Following on from that BST, Russia gets billions every month from countries like Germany for oil and gas.
Fears are that stopping the importation of fuel from Russia will plunge us all into a deep recession.

Some things are more important than money and these horrific scenes from Ukraine are the clearest sign yet that it's immoral to continue to do business with them.
Whatever the cost.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've spent years warning like a crazy person of the danger of allowing ourselves to lose our grip on Objective Truth.

This is why. This is where it leads.
https://t.co/vqmNjS4qbu

Give yourself half an hour to watch what the future holds if you do not hold every politician to account when they deny the idea of Objective Truth. It ends here. With prominent politicians ignoring war crimes, civilian murder, rape and torture because they are prepared to say that in their version of the truth, it is t happening.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Agreed TT. Germany has made a disastrous pact with the devil. They will suffer badly if they stop importing Russian energy. But they will suffer more if they don't. Especially with the news that's likely to come out this week as more and more towns defiled by the Russian invaders are returned to Ukraine.