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War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on April 06, 2022, 01:02:20 amWar is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.I fundamentally disagree with this take, which matches the nonsense from the far left at the start of the invasion that it was all NATOs fault.The root cause of the problem is a Russia that is deeply anti-democratic and stuck in a 18th/19th century Great Power mindset where your greatness is not defined by the quality of life that you offer your people, but by demonstrating your ability to make neighbours do your bidding.The crap that has been spouted about Russia being threatened by NATO expansion is just a cover for Putin lashing out. There is absolutely zero possibility of any western country invading Russia if for no other reason than that it would spark Armageddon. But there's plenty of reason why Russia neighbours wanted membership of NATO - precisely to protect themselves from the bestiality of a Russian bully that we have seen in Mariupol and Bucha. There is one country to blame for what is happening in Ukraine. And one person bears the majority of that responsibility. Waffle about this being an American/Russian proxy war does nothing but deflect the blame from where it truly lies.
I've been reading more of the Russian atrocities. How many years, do you think, will have to pass before folk will be willing to knowingly buy anything Russian again?I've bought a bottle of vodka as a Christmas present for someone for a long time. That's changing. Tough luck if it actually comes from Warrington. Collateral damage and all that...BobG
Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.
Quote from: Dutch Uncle on April 06, 2022, 01:33:22 pmBob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors."On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipediaMy understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.
Quote from: Dutch Uncle on April 06, 2022, 01:33:22 pmBob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors."On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipediaMy understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.
Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on April 07, 2022, 01:55:13 amQuote from: Dutch Uncle on April 06, 2022, 01:33:22 pmBob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors."On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipediaMy understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.My understanding is that the Ukraine is a sovereign state and shouldn't need permission from putin to join or not to join any club it wishes. Sovrenty eh.
Taken from Sky news: Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.
Quote from: Metalmicky on April 07, 2022, 02:08:12 pmTaken from Sky news: Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.Yup, war is disgusting, always. Notable that you only found incidents of Russians being baddies, laced with reports of only Russian military failings.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on April 07, 2022, 07:02:47 pmQuote from: Metalmicky on April 07, 2022, 02:08:12 pmTaken from Sky news: Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.Yup, war is disgusting, always. Notable that you only found incidents of Russians being baddies, laced with reports of only Russian military failings.Well yes, given that only Russia has invaded an independent sovereign state and attacked it's civilians in the most barbaric way. Whilst feeding its own people propoganda and eliminating dissent against its atrocities.You are fighting the wrong battle here comrade.
BRRThis is bothsidesism taken to a disgusting degree.No state anywhere in the world is flattening Russian cities with unrestrained artillery, cruise missiles and aerial bombing.When that starts, you might have a reason to say that othe countries have blood on their hands. Until then, whatever your intentions are, saying this is a fig leaf for Putin.
Those being the Donbass and Odessa that Russia invaded 8 years ago, before which no-one was being slaughtered?I am truly astonished at you BRR.
And the war started by Russia invading another country. In 2014. There wasn't a war going on before that. I bemused by your absolute refusal to see the bleeding obvious here.