Ukraine

[BobG]

Absobloodylutely BRR. That is why I have always been and will always be an internationalist with pretensions to humanism.  It is why I was a Remainer. Almost no third party influence, or indeed control, is half as bad as war is. Why was the EU set up? To stop Europe fighting amongst its constituents. It's been hugely succesful too. That's  why I loathe nationalists. That's  why I support a federal Europe.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.

This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.

I fundamentally disagree with this take, which matches the nonsense from the far left at the start of the invasion that it was all NATOs fault.

The root cause of the problem is a Russia that is deeply anti-democratic and stuck in a 18th/19th century Great Power mindset where your greatness is not defined by the quality of life that you offer your people, but by demonstrating your ability to make neighbours do your bidding.

The crap that has been spouted about Russia being threatened by NATO expansion is just a cover for Putin lashing out. There is absolutely zero possibility of any western country invading Russia if for no other reason than that it would spark Armageddon. But there's plenty of reason why Russia neighbours wanted membership of NATO - precisely to protect themselves from the bestiality of a Russian bully that we have seen in Mariupol and Bucha.

There is one country to blame for what is happening in Ukraine. And one person bears the majority of that responsibility. Waffle about this being an American/Russian proxy war does nothing but deflect the blame from where it truly lies.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, back on Objective Truth.

Right up until the invasion, Russia had a massive COVID wave. 200k new cases per day. 800 deaths per day. Both rising very rapidly just before the invasion.

And then...with no new measures to restrain the outbreak...a miracle!

New cases have fallen 90% in 6 weeks! Hallelujah!

Daily deaths have fallen every day since the invasion! Praise be to St Vlad, Protector of his People.

Some guy isn't he? Even viruses do his bidding.

[Dutch Uncle]

War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.

This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.

I fundamentally disagree with this take, which matches the nonsense from the far left at the start of the invasion that it was all NATOs fault.

The root cause of the problem is a Russia that is deeply anti-democratic and stuck in a 18th/19th century Great Power mindset where your greatness is not defined by the quality of life that you offer your people, but by demonstrating your ability to make neighbours do your bidding.

The crap that has been spouted about Russia being threatened by NATO expansion is just a cover for Putin lashing out. There is absolutely zero possibility of any western country invading Russia if for no other reason than that it would spark Armageddon. But there's plenty of reason why Russia neighbours wanted membership of NATO - precisely to protect themselves from the bestiality of a Russian bully that we have seen in Mariupol and Bucha.

There is one country to blame for what is happening in Ukraine. And one person bears the majority of that responsibility. Waffle about this being an American/Russian proxy war does nothing but deflect the blame from where it truly lies.

Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.

There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.

Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.

[BobG]

Lol. I wasn't specific enough was I?!

BobG

[Dutch Uncle]

Monsters and information warfare:

https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1511652838014861316

[BobG]

I've been reading more of the Russian atrocities. How many years, do you think, will have to pass before folk will be willing to knowingly buy anything Russian again?

I've bought a bottle of vodka as a Christmas present for someone for a long time. That's changing. Tough luck if it actually comes from Warrington. Collateral damage and all that...

BobG

[danumdon]

I've been reading more of the Russian atrocities. How many years, do you think, will have to pass before folk will be willing to knowingly buy anything Russian again?

I've bought a bottle of vodka as a Christmas present for someone for a long time. That's changing. Tough luck if it actually comes from Warrington. Collateral damage and all that...

BobG

Must admit i'd never bought anything Russian, ever, friend of mine who knows i dabble in a bit of Horology gave me a tip off about a Russian Divers watch, it looked the part but lasted a bit longer than it took to size the bracelet which looked like it was made out of pig iron, talk about out of date! with this technology i'm surprised Yuri Gagarin made it out of his front door never mind space.

Suffice to say i'll not be bothering anything Russian any time soon.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.

There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.

Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.

"On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipedia

My understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.

[Bristol Red Rover]

War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.

This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.

I fundamentally disagree with this take, which matches the nonsense from the far left at the start of the invasion that it was all NATOs fault.

The root cause of the problem is a Russia that is deeply anti-democratic and stuck in a 18th/19th century Great Power mindset where your greatness is not defined by the quality of life that you offer your people, but by demonstrating your ability to make neighbours do your bidding.

The crap that has been spouted about Russia being threatened by NATO expansion is just a cover for Putin lashing out. There is absolutely zero possibility of any western country invading Russia if for no other reason than that it would spark Armageddon. But there's plenty of reason why Russia neighbours wanted membership of NATO - precisely to protect themselves from the bestiality of a Russian bully that we have seen in Mariupol and Bucha.

There is one country to blame for what is happening in Ukraine. And one person bears the majority of that responsibility. Waffle about this being an American/Russian proxy war does nothing but deflect the blame from where it truly lies.

The action by Ukraine in eg Donbass and Odessa is to be ignored?

And in more current incidents, the brutality by Ukraine in Mariupol?

Plus the one illustration I gave in the post to Dutch above?

Far from defending or excusing Putin's actions, I likewise don't excuse the expansionist land grabbing by the US. Whilst Russia operates in a different way to the US, it is simply that, different. To couch it in terms of being outdated is missing the point of it simply being different. The US may be more current in your mind, but it's "free" market, "free"dom, means and propaganda is merely another way of exerting power, and expansionism.

[SydneyRover]

Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.

There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.

Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.

"On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipedia

My understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.

My understanding is that the Ukraine is a sovereign state and shouldn't need permission from putin to join or not to join any club it wishes.

Sovrenty eh.

[Dutch Uncle]

Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.

There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.

Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.

"On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipedia

My understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.

A good point well taken BRR, demonstrating Putin's motivation. However my point is that NATO had been and still was offering Russia a huge olive branch and to be closely involved, and Putin rejected this, mainly for the reason you give.

Indeed NATO and Russia have actually deployed together. In 1995 I was involved in the development of a computer support system for multi-national logistics. Logistics is a national responsibility and if left alone all nations would develop their own movement plans meaning everyone arriving at seaports and airports at the same time and resulting in gridlock. Our system successfully helped deconflict those national plans. Russia took part in this and rather theatrically, proudly and with some fanfare, instead of just handing us a floppy disk with their plans for deployment to Bosnia they also presented a senior NATO general with a hand drawn coloured military schematic diagram of their deployment plans on a map to celebrate our cooperation. I have a framed colour photocopy proudly hanging in my study.

All this co-operation, including many exercises, and clear peace offerings were thrown out of the window by one man.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Putin has nothing to offer the Russian people but the myth of Great Russia, funded by oil and gas.

He's blown the latter as a long term strategy. The former depends on him showing he can bully neighbours to do his bidding. And his bluff had been well and truly called on that.

He could have brought Russia into the fold of western democracies. He chose not to do. That was his decision and his alone. Just like this invasion is his decision and his alone. Bringing up 16 year old comments doesn't change that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, this looks like clear evidence of war crimes by Ukrainian forces.

https://mobile.twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

[SydneyRover]

I find it difficult to put into words how much I want a good outcome for the Ukraine but with what is pretty much genocide going on and an upgrade in weaponry now being supplied it is getting beyond dangerous with a psycho like putin, if it ever wasn't. Stronger sanctions are the only way in my thinking and hold the russians back till real talks begin.

I feel bad about that too as obviously I'm not as affected as those in Europe.

[Metalmicky]

More evidence towards the war crimes carried out by Russian Forces....

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-intercepted-calls-with-russians-discussing-bucha-killings-der-spiegel-2022-04-07/

[Metalmicky]

Taken from Sky news:
 
Intercepted audio reveals Russian troops' complaints about being outnumbered - and their orders to shoot civilians
A Russian commander allegedly ordered his soldiers to shoot and "take out" Ukrainian civilians near the besieged city of Mariupol, according to what Kyiv said was an intercepted radio conversation.
In a recording released by Ukraine's SBU security service reported by The Times, an unnamed soldier says: "There are two people coming out of the grove in civilian [clothes]."
He also says that a vehicle has been seen but it is unclear if it is civilian or military.
"Take them all f***ing out!" his superior shouts in response, adding that it was not important if there were non-combatants or not at the scene. "Off them all, f***!"
"Got it," the soldier says.
The Times reported that based on the soldiers' comments, the incident is believed to have taken place in a village near Mariupol.
In the leaked recording, another Russian soldier complained that he and his colleagues are vastly outnumbered and receiving no support from Moscow.
"Their [Ukrainian] group has 150,000 [soldiers]!" he says. 
"And there's, f***, 3,000 of us, if that... They are on the left, on the right, encircling us, f***! There's so many of them and so few of us. We don't have any support, no aviation, not a f***ing thing."

Germany intercepts calls with Russians 'admitting to civilian killings' - report
Germany has intercepted radio messages of Russian military soldiers allegedly admitting they killed civilians in Bucha, according to Der Spiegel, a national news outlet.
Germany's intelligence agency presented the findings in parliament on Wednesday, without giving a source for the information, the report said.
The messages reportedly corresponded with known deaths.
In one message,  a soldier discusses shooting someone off their bicycle.
A body was photographed lying next to a bicycle in the suburb near Kyiv.
A German government spokesperson decline to comment on the report, while Russia has denied committing war crimes in Bucha.
It comes after Ukraine released what it said was incepted audio of Russian soldiers being ordered to shoot civilians, and complaining that they were outnumbered - see 9.15am post.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.

There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.

Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.

"On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipedia

My understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.

My understanding is that the Ukraine is a sovereign state and shouldn't need permission from putin to join or not to join any club it wishes.

Sovrenty eh.

Sovereign by name, heavily manipulated in reality - such is the myth from the "free" west. The interference from the west and Russia has been immense. It's the same for many other countries around the world. US interference will often come down the barrel of a gun paid for by them if not held by them, but it is economics where its gangsterism excells. And most of that economics is aimed at the gangsters in the countries it is interfering with.

Again, that's not excusing Russia, far from it, but the west and their servants have the same amount of blood on their hands.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Taken from Sky news:
 
Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.

Yup, war is disgusting, always. Notable that you only found incidents of Russians being baddies, laced with reports of only Russian military failings.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

This is bothsidesism taken to a disgusting degree.

No state anywhere in the world is flattening Russian cities with unrestrained artillery, cruise missiles and aerial bombing.

When that starts, you might have a reason to say that othe countries have blood on their hands. Until then, whatever your intentions are, saying this is a fig leaf for Putin.

[wilts rover]

Taken from Sky news:
 
Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.

Yup, war is disgusting, always. Notable that you only found incidents of Russians being baddies, laced with reports of only Russian military failings.

Well yes, given that only Russia has invaded an independent sovereign state and attacked it's civilians in the most barbaric way. Whilst feeding its own people propoganda and eliminating dissent against its atrocities.

You are fighting the wrong battle here comrade.

[Branton Red]

I've been reading more of the Russian atrocities. How many years, do you think, will have to pass before folk will be willing to knowingly buy anything Russian again?

I've bought a bottle of vodka as a Christmas present for someone for a long time. That's changing. Tough luck if it actually comes from Warrington. Collateral damage and all that...

BobG

Just on buying Russian made products. I wonder if anyone realises certain Dove and Lynx deodorants are made in Russia (those which look like these www.amazon.co.uk/Dove-Men-Comfort-Anti-Perspirant-Deodorant/dp/B01F8IE64O/ref=pd_lpo_4?pd_rd_i=B01F8IE64O&th=1)

I noticed this after making a purchase around Christmas and stopped buying them immediately afterward.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Taken from Sky news:
 
Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.

Yup, war is disgusting, always. Notable that you only found incidents of Russians being baddies, laced with reports of only Russian military failings.

Well yes, given that only Russia has invaded an independent sovereign state and attacked it's civilians in the most barbaric way. Whilst feeding its own people propoganda and eliminating dissent against its atrocities.

You are fighting the wrong battle here comrade.

I'll keep it simple - you missed the attacks on and slaughter of russians in Donbass, Odessa etc? ie the ones before Russia invaded?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Those being the Donbass and Odessa that Russia invaded 8 years ago, before which no-one was being slaughtered?

I am truly astonished at you BRR.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

This is bothsidesism taken to a disgusting degree.

No state anywhere in the world is flattening Russian cities with unrestrained artillery, cruise missiles and aerial bombing.

When that starts, you might have a reason to say that othe countries have blood on their hands. Until then, whatever your intentions are, saying this is a fig leaf for Putin.

Dear Disgusted of Denaby, sorry you prefer to choose a truth that is so limited. This war has been going on for several years, much has happened. Ukraines have slaughtered many Ukraines and Russian Ukraines, attrocities have been on both sides for a long time. It is still the case, indeed you found one vid illustating this - there are others as well as evidence of actions on civilians, both sides using people as human shields, thus drawing fire onto civillian targets eg the maternity hospital.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And the war started by Russia invading another country. In 2014. There wasn't a war going on before that.

I bemused by your absolute refusal to see the bleeding obvious here.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Those being the Donbass and Odessa that Russia invaded 8 years ago, before which no-one was being slaughtered?

I am truly astonished at you BRR.

Russian invasion of Odessa 8 years ago?

You may argue Russia invaded Donbass, there seems to have been incitements from Russians though it does appear much of the initial protests against the Ukranian coup and restrictions on Russian culture were from locals/ The fighting following that against Ukrainian forces, including Azov, involved a lot of civilian slaughter from both sides.

Yes, Russia always wanted Donbass, but then the west wanted Ukraine. Both explicit, both having made moves that instigated the crisis.

[Bristol Red Rover]

And the war started by Russia invading another country. In 2014. There wasn't a war going on before that.

I bemused by your absolute refusal to see the bleeding obvious here.

Now you're being silly. A war begins before the first shot is fired.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR
I have frequently disagreed with you but generally respected your views.

Here though, I'm disgusted.

Putin has repeatedly committed the grossest war crimes in flattening civilian areas by the square mile in Grozny and in Aleppo. He's done the same here in Mariupol and elsewhere. Entirely as the aggressor.

You are one of a very small number of people who seem determined to go to any lengths to find reasons to, at least, contextualise this.

I understand that geopolitics is a complex issue. But some issues are very simple. Some wars don't start because complex issues make them inevitable. Some wars start because one side thinks it can get an advantage by smashing another side.

This is the clearest example of that sort of start of a war that I have seen.

Russia was under absolutely  zero external threat. No country in its right mind would invade a state armed with 7000 nukes. Putin invaded Russia because he wanted it under his control. Looking to his power base not the rest of the world.

Support that if you must, but at least be honest with yourself. Don't kid yourself that Putin was forced into this. It was the choice of a thug bully, running a thuggish state and wanting to bully his neighbour to do his bidding. There is no more "sophisticated" analysis required. Unless you are wanting to excuse him.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Contextualising isn't excusing. That suggestion is the kind of thing that makes excuses too. You are choosing your excuses within refusing to include the reality of a complex situation, although you accept that is the case too.

There were a great many attrocities conducted against the civilians of the Donbass by Ukrainian forces. There is a complex context even in that, including a Western Ukraine fear of losing territory - are you accepting that context?

As with most conflicts, even many decades later, we get a clearing picture, rarely the full "truth", though also one not devoid of interpretations, and in the case of Ukraine we have a battle between The West/USA and Russia, extreme politics.