Ukraine

[andy didcott]

Moskva bottom of the ogin.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Biggest military ship to be sunk by enemy action since WWII. Bigger than the Belgrano.

[glosterred]

Hearing the Moskva hasn’t been sunk, it’s been promoted to submarine

[idler]

That would be true to form with their propaganda glosser.

[River Don]

Reports now that the Moskva was carrying nuclear warheads when it went down.

I guess the Black Sea isn't too deep, god knows if it's salvageable.

[SydneyRover]

''Russia 'hits Kyiv missile plant' after losing iconic warship''

This confirms it then

[BillyStubbsTears]

What a strange response to an accidental fire on the Moskva!

But this is what happens when you deny the existence of Objective Truth to your own people. There will be millions of Russians absolutely certain that the Moskva was just an unfortunate accident.

[River Don]

Commentors on Russian TV claiming WWIII is breaking out. Russia is coming up against NATO and actually ordinary Ukrainians are welcoming Russian forces.

A worrying development this. It suggests Putin is looking for excuses. Directly blaming NATO like this is very concerning.

Anchor Olesya Loseva, host of Vremya Pokazhet, told viewers that the West was now supplying "zillions of weapons” to Ukraine.

She claimed Ukraine was doing the West’s bidding by carrying out "yet more provocations, bloody, horrible, completely unthinkable.”

These will “force people to shudder once again and say that Russia Is a country which is unworthy of even being on the world map and that all Russians should simply be wiped off the face of the earth”.


... An existential threat to Russia? Very dangerous territory we are entering here.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There are some gobshites on Russian TV political programmes. It's like having Farage on QT every f**king week. Good box office but not necessarily Govt policy.

[River Don]

Olga Skabeyeva made the WWIII remark.

Very much a spokesperson for the chanel and the regime. Host of the 60 minutes political talk show. A bit like a Russian Fiona Bruce then.

I suppose it could be more sabre rattling but it's also informing the Russian population.

I don't know enough about Russian TV but isn't that likely to be sanctioned directly by the Kremlin?

[scawsby steve]

All this is simply because Putin fears his own people will oust him.

[wilts rover]

It's what Zelensky said at the begining of the conflict when he was asking NATO for help - it doesn't matter if you wont give practical support for fear of starting WWIII - if Putin wants WIII there will be WWIII.

[ravenrover]

Just watched Dinosaurs the final day, is that what Putin plans for Humans, the final day? Start burrowing now and stock up on10 years worth of food

[scawsby steve]

It's what Zelensky said at the begining of the conflict when he was asking NATO for help - it doesn't matter if you wont give practical support for fear of starting WWIII - if Putin wants WIII there will be WWIII.

Why would Putin want WW3? What could he gain from it?

No doubt he's mad, but there's a big difference between madness and stupidity, and he's not stupid enough to think he can win a nuclear war. Nobody can, and he's well aware of that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm certain he doesn't WANT Armageddon. The danger is we might all stumble into it.

Putin would not dive straight into an all out nuclear exchange. If for no other reason than that I don't think his military top brass would carry that order out. I think they'd off him first if he commanded that.

 But the scenario that gives me nightmares is what happens if he gets another kicking in the Donbas and he responds to that by wiping out a section of the Ukranian defences with a small battlefield nuke?
I can we'll see that being a realistic scenario. He shows the world he's truly a tough, dangerous f**ker. And a "small" nuclear attack is a much harder thing for the top brass to rebel against. It's been in the Russian military strategy to play that as a "look how f**king dangerous we are - do you REALLY want to escalte this Washington?" card in any battle against NATO. Why would a General go against an order to do that against Ukraine.

But if battlefield nukes get used, God alone knows what the endgame is. Most war gaming of that scenario ends up with both sides stumbling into all out nuclear war.

[danumdon]

I think some on here do the general public of Russia a disservice, they are not a backward looking 19th century communist peasant populace any more. They may have as a leader and extreme case of a soviet throwback with all the illusions of that ilk but even he is not that stupid to believe he can use tactical nukes and get away with it.

The general population have the means to see, hear and read on multiple platforms what is actually going on in the world today, they may be getting told one thing from the regime but i'm sure plenty know the score that the "special operation" is anything other than a Russian humiliation on the world stage.

You can tell the people one thing but when many families see young Boris and Vassily coming home in body bags they will know exactly what the score is.

The worm will eventually turn.

[SydneyRover]

I think some on here do the general public of Russia a disservice, they are not a backward looking 19th century communist peasant populace any more. They may have as a leader and extreme case of a soviet throwback with all the illusions of that ilk but even he is not that stupid to believe he can use tactical nukes and get away with it.

The general population have the means to see, hear and read on multiple platforms what is actually going on in the world today, they may be getting told one thing from the regime but i'm sure plenty know the score that the "special operation" is anything other than a Russian humiliation on the world stage.

You can tell the people one thing but when many families see young Boris and Vassily coming home in body bags they will know exactly what the score is.

The worm will eventually turn.

Forget the nukes bit and you could be talking about a democracy much closer to home and johnson was a known liar when voted in.

[River Don]

I'm not sure that's right Danum.

In the large western cities of Russia, yes, younger people have had access to wider media. Some have been fleeing to Finland or south into Georgia or Turkey, wherever. Much to Putins displeasure. He had a good rant about these unpatriotic people a few weeks back.

Russia though is a huge, huge nation. Out in the country, out in the east, in the small cities and towns, they don't have the modern infrastructure. What they do have is TV but the Kremlin completely controls the narrative. The people have a historic mistrust of the west and NATO. Standing up to the west has always played well for Putin in the vast majority of the country. They want to believe in a powerful Russia and Putins stories play into that. The annexation of Crimea was really popular.

Putin thought he was going to pull off the same trick again. None of what is unfolding was ever expected but he can't back down now. A strongman, who isn't seen to be a strongman won't last long, which is why all this is becoming so dangerous.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Danum
Putin has presided over the obliteration of major cities in three countries (including his own).

He has obliterated independent media.

He has obliterated an independent judicial system.

He has authorised the systematic terrorisation of opposition political parties.

He has authorised the systematic assassination of critical politicians and journalists.

Most of that was well established in 2018. He won 77.5% of the vote in the presidential elections.

I think you overestimate the desire of the Russian public to rein him in from doing anything he damn well wants.

[BillyStubbsTears]

A lesson from history. Did the German people do anything effective to stop Hitler plunging them into a suicidal war, and the genocide of entire peoples?

Why should the use of weapons of mass destruction against an enemy that has been systematically portrayed as Nazis an existential enemies of Russia be stopped by the Russian people?

[SydneyRover]

The public are being fed a diet of bile and lies, fancy that eh.

''On Russian television, hosts and pundits came perilously close to admitting that the loss of the cruiser was the result of an enemy attack as opposed to the result of an accident onboard. They also talked in vehement terms about wiping out “Ukraine-ness”.

“Just the fact there is an attack on our territory is casus belli, an absolute cause for war. A real war, no fooling around,” said the Russian film director and former MP Vladimir Bortko, on the popular 60 Minutes talkshow on state-run television. The special operation, as he was reminded Russia’s war is called, “ended tonight”.

When asked if he was speaking about the Moskva, he said: “The Moscow cruiser is absolutely a cause for war. One hundred per cent. It’s our flagship. There’s nothing to think about. We need an answer.”''

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/15/ukraine-braces-revenge-attacks-russia-moskva-sinking

[drfchound]

When asked if he was speaking about the Moskva, he said: “The Moscow cruiser is absolutely a cause for war. One hundred per cent. It’s our flagship. There’s nothing to think about. We need an answer.”''

If he said that then surely he is going against the official narrative that the ship sank due to an explosion onboard.

[Stocksbridge Owl]

I spent time working in Russia in 2010. Many people that I met came across as extremely nationalist, paranoid about the west and aggressively defensive against any perceived criticism of their nation. They are fed a constant diet of pro Kremlin/anti west propaganda.  Outside the cities they blame their poverty on the downfall of the USSR and see Putin as the man to return them to past glories. A very dangerous nation in my view.

[River Don]

Yeah Stockbridge

One of the interesting snippets from reports in the papers, is how the Russian squaddies have been surprised at the wealth they've found in Ukraine. Looting and thieving stuff out of houses to take back home.

In one radio intercept, a Russian said there is no wonder they didn't want us here.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Vice Admiral in charge of the Black Sea Fleet has been arrested by the FSB.

Presumably because a fire broke out on the Moskva in a storm.

[Filo]

Vice Admiral in charge of the Black Sea Fleet has been arrested by the FSB.

Presumably because a fire broke out on the Moskva in a storm.

Imagine being arrested because your soviet era naval ships are shit

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm currently reading Niall Ferguson's The War of the World.

He recounts the scene at Stalin's dacha when the news came through that Hitler had launched Barbarossa and invaded Russia.

Stalin was sat catatonic when two high ranking politicians came in. He said "Have you come for me?" thinking they had come to depose him for his catastrophic policy mistakes. But they hadn't. They'd come to beg him to return to the Kremlin to take control.

He did. And he purged many military leaders as scapegoats.

Ferguson comments on how the whole post-War order might have been different if they had the balls to put Stalin in a shallow grave in the forest that day. I wonder if there are people with the spine to do that to Putin now?

[SydneyRover]

Putin, banging on about anti-russia hysteria in Britain, no wonder? one minute his money and influence is welcomed by the bucket load into the tory party and london is the laundrette of Europe, no inquiries into possible interference, flagged by the security committee, his henchmen given the keys to the city and 'lord of siberia ffs, and the next we supply arms and training to their enemy, not because johnson wants to save the Ukraine population from the jaws of death (look at the pathetic response to their refugees) to save himself from an imminent dcm.

[River Don]

That's stretching it Syd,

The UK was supplying weapons and training to Ukraine since long before Putin started his military excercises on the border.

And the west has been hoping Russia would open up through trade since before Putin came to power.

[drfchound]

Why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to have a moan.