Ukraine

[Bristol Red Rover]

And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.

BRR.

Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?

Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?

You have got your dates wrong there if not being grossly mistaken. Here's the positions on 31 Jan, 28 Feb, 31 Mar and today. Though there were also Ukraine reports of approx 10miles further advancement NW of Donetsk a couple of days back not added to the map.

[Bristol Red Rover]

And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.

BRR.

Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?

Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?

1) I think it's likely that the Russian generals expected a lot more of an easy move on Kiev. However, I also think it's most likely they had the expectation that occupation of Kiev itself would be unlikely and were aiming to surround it. They may also have just been chancing their arm, or drawing Ukraine forces there whilst they made their more realistic efforts in the south, which have been arguably half way successful. At the same time, destroying Ukraine infastructure leaving it weaker. Future politics and western take over is likely to ultimately more than reverse this.

3) It's war. Ukraine has done exactly the same, and has been for some time in the Donbas. It appears a lot of Ukraine defence has been based in occupying civilian buildings including hospitals. In Mariupol that appears too be fairly undesputible - something not at all mentioned by western media, but no surprise there. I don't doubt that attrocities have been committed by both sides.

4) I believe that is true, but why didn't you say how many Ukraine has lost? Really?
The same goes for warplanes and helicopters, it seems both sides have has similar losses. However, Russia has far more left. An invading army is always likely to lose more hardware and troops.

I am not defending Russia here, far from it, but I do despise the way propaganda is considered "fact", as you illustrate here - you give one side not a balanced overview, yet you call it unaruable objective truth which it isn't. Why?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Another fact. 80% of Russia’s land army are conscripts.

Many of them very young men with little training.
Ukraine’s army is much different. Better trained. Much more resolute. Better organised.
Added to this is a defensive force is always harder to defeat than an offensive one. Think Rourkes Drift. In eastern Ukraine there are troops that have been dug in for the last 8 years.
Add morale to all this. Many Russian troops have been hoodwinked into this whole saga. Being told they would be welcomed by Ukrainians with open arms. Psychologically that’s going to hurt. Many of them will be defeated before they even get started.

But I’m not niaive enough to know that superior firepower and sheer numbers will win this conflict. It’s just what the exact winning will look like for Ukraine.

In the main I agree, but it is wrong to assume the demoralisation extends throughout the Russian troops. It will have some effect, especially amongst those conscripts from far off places in Russia. I doubt the Chechan fighters are feeling that way, and many of their troops do feel this war is justified for the many reasons of western advancement on their country. Whether or not we see it that way is not relevant - they do, mainly anyway.

Some of the Ukraine troops are well trained, and in their homeland, yet there are many who are less well trained and organised. Man for man I would say they are effectively stronger, though they will begin to tire.

Again, I'm not pro Russian here, just that the propaganda always goes to say the others are demoralised and weaker and surrendering etc etc - some of that may be true but it is exaggerated and does also go both ways.

[River Don]

Trying to peer through the fog of war, I do think Russia stepping up the warnings of WWIII and nuclear attack on the west suggests things aren't going as well as they would like.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.

BRR.

Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?

Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?

You have got your dates wrong there if not being grossly mistaken. Here's the positions on 31 Jan, 28 Feb, 31 Mar and today. Though there were also Ukraine reports of approx 10miles further advancement NW of Donetsk a couple of days back not added to the map.

So Russia didn't control Crimea before 24 Feb? When you take that into account, my comment stands. Nowhere have Russian forces sustainably driven as much as a hundred miles beyond borders that they controlled pre-Feb 24. Where they have driven furthest, they have dangerously extended supply lines.

[River Don]

It might be my age but i just brush off warnings of nuclear war now.

Frankly life under a bas**rd like Putin is not worth contemplating. So in Churchillian style the only option is to resist come what may.

I guess the Kremlin don't understand this but really those fighting for democracy don't have much to lose and everything to gain. Even if the their victory unltimately will prove to be a bit disappointing. It's far, far better than the alternative.

[Bristol Red Rover]

And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.

BRR.

Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?

Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?

You have got your dates wrong there if not being grossly mistaken. Here's the positions on 31 Jan, 28 Feb, 31 Mar and today. Though there were also Ukraine reports of approx 10miles further advancement NW of Donetsk a couple of days back not added to the map.

So Russia didn't control Crimea before 24 Feb? When you take that into account, my comment stands. Nowhere have Russian forces sustainably driven as much as a hundred miles into Ukraine. Where they have driven furthest, they have dangerously extended supply lines.

Of course Russia controlled Crimea previously, where have I suggested they haven't except for clipping the maps for simplicity wth the understanding Crimea was already a done deal.
You said 10s of miles, whilst the map shows advancements of between 50 and 100 miles along the whole southern and NE region. It's a significant amount of territory. "10s" is not reflective of the reality.

Yes, supply lines have been an issue. It appears establishing them has been a focus of recent after which taking the whole Donbas is very likely fairly soon. I think the minimum aim will be that plus Mykolaiv in the SW. Beyond that taking Kahkiv and down to Zaporizhzhia is likely to be as far as they would go, and a 50 mile strip over to Transnistria, and that patch of land south of Moldova, thus taking all the coast. Any of that extra would be bonus. Taking Odessa would be the icing on the cake, but I doubt that will happen.

[River Don]

They've really got to take Odessa if they want to connect Transinistra.

And Ukraine cannot afford to Be without a sea port...

So rock and a hard place. The only option is to resist.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.
I'm genuinely gobsmacked by your comment "It's war. Ukraine had done exactly the same" regarding the mass targeting of civillian areas.

I've always assumed you were left wing. I genuinely cannot understand how anyone on the Left can glibly dismiss the war crimes of a fascist tyrrant who has flattened cities in previous wars with a bothsides throwaway.

Ukraine has done nothing remotely similar to the destruction of Mariupol. It has done nothing remote close to the mass deportation of civillians. It hasn't systematically tortured and killed hundreds of unarmed civillians. And most of all, it hasn't and didn't start the fighting. That was started by Russia, both in 2014 and in 2022.

[drfchound]

BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.

[River Don]

BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.

I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.

[drfchound]

Isn’t it possible to be extreme left wing then?

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.

I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.

War is a crime, as are despotic acts that push towards it. The west is far from innocent in this, it has blood on it's hands, Having said that, Russia pulling the actual trigger is inexcusable.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.

I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.

Jesus. THIS is a perfect example of why it has been so liberating to ignore a couple of people. The absolute determination to read the very worst intention into everything I write.

No of f**king course I don't mean that I EXPECT people on the right to glibly dismiss war crimes. But some do. We have (or had) one in here who cheered on Putin's destruction of Grozny and Aleppo. To the best of my memory, before I blocked him Hound never once showed any disgust at that poster's disgusting attitudes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.

I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.

War is a crime, as are despotic acts that push towards it. The west is far from innocent in this, it has blood on it's hands, Having said that, Russia pulling the actual trigger is inexcusable.

But you still believe there's equality between Ukrainian and Russian actions in the conflict?

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.
I'm genuinely gobsmacked by your comment "It's war. Ukraine had done exactly the same" regarding the mass targeting of civillian areas.

I've always assumed you were left wing. I genuinely cannot understand how anyone on the Left can glibly dismiss the war crimes of a fascist tyrrant who has flattened cities in previous wars with a bothsides throwaway.

Ukraine has done nothing remotely similar to the destruction of Mariupol. It has done nothing remote close to the mass deportation of civillians. It hasn't systematically tortured and killed hundreds of unarmed civillians. And most of all, it hasn't and didn't start the fighting. That was started by Russia, both in 2014 and in 2022.

The coup in the Ukraine was a significant starter to all this, it was not democratic, something that doesn't get a mention in msm. That was instigated/staged by the west. You try to simplify this way too much. It is complex.

Anyway, I'm not dismissing the acts of Russia. Unlike you however, I'm equally not dismissing the acts of Ukraine who have used civilians as shields as well as targetted civilians and civilian buildings themselves primarily in the Donbas over many years, and more recently in Mariupol for instance.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.

I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.

War is a crime, as are despotic acts that push towards it. The west is far from innocent in this, it has blood on it's hands, Having said that, Russia pulling the actual trigger is inexcusable.

But you still believe there's equality between Ukrainian and Russian actions in the conflict?

Who knows the full details? It is evident that both sides are guilty. Equally? Probably not but that desn't change that they are both guilty.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.
By "coup" do you mean a peaceful, if insistent demonstration that didn't turn violent until Yanukovych's security forces started beating, and eventually shooting the demonstrators?

I think the traditional word on the Left for the uprising is "revolution" rather than "coup". Strange choice of word.

[drfchound]

BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.

I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.

Jesus. THIS is a perfect example of why it has been so liberating to ignore a couple of people. The absolute determination to read the very worst intention into everything I write.

No of f**king course I don't mean that I EXPECT people on the right to glibly dismiss war crimes. But some do. We have (or had) one in here who cheered on Putin's destruction of Grozny and Aleppo. To the best of my memory, before I blocked him Hound never once showed any disgust at that poster's disgusting attitudes.

The trouble with blocking people bst, is that you don’t know whether or not they have expressed disgust at other peoples posts.
To be honest, when I asked you to block me it was liberating for me too because you did have a habit of criticising almost anything I said in the off topic section.
Win/win for us both then.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.
By "coup" do you mean a peaceful, if insistent demonstration that didn't turn violent until Yanukovych's security forces started beating, and eventually shooting the demonstrators?

I think the traditional word on the Left for the uprising is "revolution" rather than "coup". Strange choice of word.

Choose what word you want. Either way it was never just a public uprising. It was stirred by the west just like many government changes are - "arab spring" etc etc.

And pick what you want to reply to, seems you don't want to acknowledge any Ukrainian wrong doing at all. Choices eh!

[BillyStubbsTears]

No, it's not that I don't want to acknowledge Ukrainian wrong doing.

It is that I want to get things in context.

The context is that Putin is an evil, fascist thug. He has spent 20 years showing that he has no respect for human life. He has built his mystique around being someone who can be seen to smash opposition. And I genuinely cannot understand how anyone on the Left can find excuses or explanations for that.

[Bristol Red Rover]

As far as I can see you have batted away every suggestion of Ukraine shelling civilians. Where do you get your news?

Understanding why something occured, who was iinvolved, what interests were being pushed by who etc is not about excusing anything. You context focuses on the sharp end, and yes that evil needs to be stopped. Why play the rhetorical game of ignoring the other evil in the ever so slightly wider context.

As in every place in the world, gangsters vie for control amd when the dommination from one gangster slips, it gets messy. Innocents are caught up, and I include most of the troops in that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

I'm not closing my eyes to anything from Ukraine. But it is a matter of scale. Ukraine has done nothing remotely on the scale of what Putin has done in Grozny, Aleppo or Mariupol. You are trying to equate the two. That means, in effect, you are excusing Putin's policy of extermination. You are trying to dress that up with bothsidesism arguments. I think that is a morally bankrupt approach which essentially gives a free pass to imperialistic barbarism.

[wilts rover]

Ukraine wishes to be a free, democratic country and choose its own leaders amd government - Putin doesn't believe a country called Ukraine should exist but should be a region of Greater Russia told what to do by him. Russia is fighting a war of fascist imperial conquest - the Ukrainian's are fighting for survival.

If Russia looses they will go home. If Ukraine looses, you will never see them again. There is no equivalence.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Perfectly put Wilts.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is what it leads to when your leaders deny the existence of Objective Truth.

Russia: Our work in Ukraine is a sacred mission to de-Nazify the country.

Rest of World: Ukraine's President is Jewish.

Russia: So what? Hitler had Jewish blood. We are justified in destroying Mariupol.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-61296682

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually. That comment from Lavrov. Truly chilling. For this reason.

He's seeing "Jewishness" in terms of blood, rather than in terms of beliefs and customs.

I haven't heard a major politician in Europe speaking in this way since...well, Hitler.

It's beyond any argument that Hitler wasn't "Jewish" in terms of what he believed and how he lived his life. But Lavrov raises the rumour (and it is little more than that) that Hitler's grandfather was the illegitimate son of a wealthy Jew to support his utterly disgusting argument that Zelensky is a Nazi.

I naively thought we were well past these sorts of medieval arguments. But there you have the Foreign Secretary of Russia using them. And no-one at home will call him out. Because he and Putin have destroyed the concept of Objective Truth in Russia.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Every once in a while I do start to worry about the Russian war ending up in nuclear Armageddon.

Then I look at this picture.



A man so cowardly that he's scared of even letting close comrades get near to him is never going to commit suicide by pressing the button.

I have to admit, looking at that photo does make me feel slightly sorry for Putin. What f**ked up experiences did he undergo in childhood to turn him into this thug-coward?

[normal rules]

This was his childhood summed up pretty well. It does not make good reading.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi0h5e4ocH3AhXCoFwKHfUsBWMQFnoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Facestoohigh.com%2F2022%2F03%2F02%2Fhow-vladimir-putins-childhood-is-affecting-us-all%2F&usg=AOvVaw1kh22DfgWMb9FwynnBK8zS

[BobG]

Scary that NR. It resonates too many levels.....

BobG