Ukraine

[wilts rover]

Could be paper talk or could there be something in it, guess we will know soon - reported by people out there:

Rumours are swirling in Moscow that a number of former generals and KGB officials are preparing to oust Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and plan to end the war in Ukraine, which is increasingly seen across Russia as a strategic mistake.

https://twitter.com/Ohra_aho/status/1521464911515332608

[River Don]

It's rumoured Putin is about to go under the knife. If he is having an op, I guess it would be a good moment to try and overthrow him.

That said there are also rumours that the Russian top brass is dissatisfied that they aren't going in hard enough. Withdrawing from Kyiv being seen as a mistake. So, careful what you wish for, I guess.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Let's see if Putin has a purge of them before they can act.

Maybe it would go down in history as the Night of the Long Tables.

[Filo]

It's rumoured Putin is about to go under the knife. If he is having an op, I guess it would be a good moment to try and overthrow him.

That said there are also rumours that the Russian top brass is dissatisfied that they aren't going in hard enough. Withdrawing from Kyiv being seen as a mistake. So, careful what you wish for, I guess.

One surgeon could be a hero

[BillyStubbsTears]

Possibly the most surreal line I've ever seen in a media article here.
https://www.cityam.com/kremlin-on-high-alert-as-coup-rumours-grow-in-moscow-disgruntled-generals-join-fsb-looking-to-oust-putin-and-end-ukraine-war/

Final line. "When approached by city.am (about the imminence of a coup) no-one at the Kremlin replied."

I wonder if the South Yorkshire Times would have any luck if they phoned Moscow 0001 and asked for Putin's opinions on Escalate to De-escalate?

[BobG]

Four options then:

1) Nothing at all happpens. It's paper talk
2) Thrusting young wannabe's manoeuvre to replace the seen as dangerous leaders below Putin in return for Putin's tacit support now and patronage in future
3) Putin runs a 21st century version of a Stalinist purge
4) Putin gets pushed out one way or another. If I was a betting man, and if he does have an operation, the odds on him surviving it wouldn't be that high

Take your pick. If I had to choose I think I'd go for option 3. But that isn't based on anything more than what we all know about Putin's character now. The politics of it is clearly just as important though.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'd have thought the same thing 2 months back Bob. But that was before Putin made the biggest blunder if his whole career.

His entire approach until know has been to measure up his enemy, understand his weaknesses, prepare a massive knock out blow and destroy him.

He did it against oligarchs like Berazovski and Khordakovski.

He did it against Chechnia. He did it against Georgia. And Syria.

This time, he's f**ked up. He's totally misjudged the power of his opponent.

That now immediately shows that he's not infallible.

What he is, is a bully, who, every time he smashed someone in the face, scared everyone else into not even thinking of rebelling. And therefore being easier to pick off.

But as with all bullies, what's needed is for the cowed opponents to get the balls to stand up to him and overpower him.

2 months ago, I could not see that happening. Now, I suspect there are powerful subordinates who are fancying their chances of doing him in.

[SydneyRover]

The West was We were too slow to act over Russian aggression in Ukraine, Boris Johnson has told Ukrainian MPs.

Addressing the Ukrainian parliament via video link, he said Ukraine's allies "cannot make the same mistake" as they did over the 2014 Crimea invasion.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The West was We were too slow to act over Russian aggression in Ukraine, Boris Johnson has told Ukrainian MPs.

Addressing the Ukrainian parliament via video link, he said Ukraine's allies "cannot make the same mistake" as they did over the 2014 Crimea invasion.

That tired "invaded Crimea" line keeps getting trotted out, even more than the "annexed Crimea".

[BillyStubbsTears]

I just don't get it BRR. Why someone on the Left would take the side of a fascist, ethno-nationalist imperialist.

By the way. The attack on Mariupol that you shrugged off as what happens in war. The civillian deaths that you blamed on Ukraine. Have you seen the AP investigation into the theatre bombing? 1000 people using the cellars as an air raid shelter. No indication of any offensive Ukraine military stationed in the building. Russia's artillery attack killed 600 civilians.

That's what Russia is. But you cannot bring yourself to unequivocally condemn their bestiality.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Please quit this left/right thing, its so 20th century  You'd rather me take the side of establishment imperialists like the EU, NATO, and the Holy American Empire. They're all nasty gangsters. Yes, Putin and that empire too. But quit tjis good v evil, right v left. You're srarting to sound like Ronald Regan - will it be the evil Klingons next?

Mariupol - how many civilians killed by Ukrainians? How many civilians used by Ukrainians as human shields? Your one sided take on all this is bizarre.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I always used to wonder who the people were who made excuses for Stalin and Mao killing tens of millions. Now I know. Just pitiful.

I'll agree with you on one thing though. The separation between the far left and far right had evaporated. It's grimly fascinating to see how many erstwhile communists have cropped up on the far right during this century. There's one in the Kremlin for a start.

And just don't even try this disgusting bothsidesism stuff about Mariupol. Russia CHOSE this war. They CHOSE to indiscriminately attack residential areas. There is one side to blame. But you cannot find it in yourself to do so unequivocally. So you implicitly give a pass to Putin's slaughter. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

And who the hell said this was about good Vs evil? It's about flawed Vs evil. And you will not make a stand against the evil side.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Read this.
https://apnews.com/article/Russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-theater-c321a196fbd568899841b506afcac7a1

Read every word. Then look in the mirror and try telling yourself that Putin's regime is not truly evil.

I was wrong in giving them the out that the Mariupol theatre attack was an indiscriminate artillery attack.

It wasn't.

It was a targeted air strike.

Against a targets that had "Children" written in 10 foot high letters on the ground outside it.

Utter f**king scum.

[Bristol Red Rover]

So youre on the side of flawed?

I'll make any judgements when full detaiks become apparent. I'm far from being supportive of anyone pulling tbe first trigger. But unlike you BST, I don't give a one sided commentary when full details aren't yet available, and when there are two sides playing the eternal pawn of Ukraine, both being evil and self interested, both committing attrocities.

Did you chose to be against the invasion of Iraq before or after it happened? Same old western propaganda gping on then funnily enough.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

 1) I was against the invasion of Iraq before it started. Why do you ask?

2) I fundamentally disagree that you have to suspend moral judgement in the heat of war. That's a cop out. The bombing of the Mariupol theatre (and in fact the consistent policy of Putin of razing to the ground any city that puts up opposition to Russian war aims) is a war crime, regardless of any equivalences you might hope to find on the other side. Which brings us to...

3)Do you honestly think that if Ukrainian forces had been guilty of flattening a Russian city and deliberately targeting civilian shelters, the Russian authorities would have played it down and said "wait till we know all the facts"? It would take a special naivete to believe that would happen. And yet there have been no instances  of reports of Ukraine being responsible for anything remotely on the scale of the Mariupol atrocities. Draw your own conclusions.

[wilts rover]

There are not two sides both committing atrocities in Ukraine!!!

Only one side has invaded Ukraine and is committing atrocities against CIVILIANS. One side lives there and the other has invaded it in an attempt to destroy.

After the war if Ukraine wins, any atrocities commited by their troops against Russian soldiers will be investigated and if enough evidence is found those guilty will be tried at The Hague.

After the War if Russia wins, any former Ukranian soldier/politician/government employee will be executed. Any allegation of Russian war crimes will be ignored.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The burning of the building in Kiev murdering many anti coup supporters is one clear example you know of and choose to gloss over.

I hold back on judgement overall because it does seem clear this goes both ways on one level. Tho I agree egs like the theatre in Mariupol appear v bad, and i condem it even if just careless. Were there Ukraine forces inside? Did the Russians think there were?

And there is undoubtedly the use of civilians as shields by Ukraine, notably still in the steelworks. That was deliberate.

Shelling civilians in the Donbas by Ukraine appears clear, all the way from 2014 to present.

[Bristol Red Rover]

There are not two sides both committing atrocities in Ukraine!!!

Only one side has invaded Ukraine and is committing atrocities against CIVILIANS. One side lives there and the other has invaded it in an attempt to destroy.

After the war if Ukraine wins, any atrocities commited by their troops against Russian soldiers will be investigated and if enough evidence is found those guilty will be tried at The Hague.

After the War if Russia wins, any former Ukranian soldier/politician/government employee will be executed. Any allegation of Russian war crimes will be ignored.

See above. And no they are v v unlikely to execute all opposition, not least because they won't occupy all of Ukraine, and probably never intended to do more than take the areas they currently hold plus all Donbas and maybe across to Odessa etc.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

 1) I was against the invasion of Iraq before it started. Why do you ask?

Because you consistently take one side here, i wondered how that sat in a different conflict, that's all.

[wilts rover]

There are not two sides both committing atrocities in Ukraine!!!

Only one side has invaded Ukraine and is committing atrocities against CIVILIANS. One side lives there and the other has invaded it in an attempt to destroy.

After the war if Ukraine wins, any atrocities commited by their troops against Russian soldiers will be investigated and if enough evidence is found those guilty will be tried at The Hague.

After the War if Russia wins, any former Ukranian soldier/politician/government employee will be executed. Any allegation of Russian war crimes will be ignored.

See above. And no they are v v unlikely to execute all opposition, not least because they won't occupy all of Ukraine, and probably never intended to do more than take the areas they currently hold plus all Donbas and maybe across to Odessa etc.

The past 100 years of Russian history and the excessive brutality of Putin's rule towards anyone, anywhere who opposes him says you are wrong.

I suggest you read Bill Browder's books, thats what Putin does.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

 1) I was against the invasion of Iraq before it started. Why do you ask?

Because you consistently take one side here, i wondered how that sat in a different conflict, that's all.

Yeah. I constantly took one side in that invasion too. I do try to be consistent on these things.  I am very much against imperialist aggression. Wherever it comes from.

[danumdon]

BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.

The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.

[River Don]

Putin's new flagship Admiral Makarov is reportedly on fire after being hit by a Neptune missile off the coast of Snake Island, Ukrainian officials are claiming.

He won't like that.

[SydneyRover]

Russian frigate Admiral Makarov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_frigate_Admiral_Makarov

[River Don]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russias-admiral-makarov-warship-26889015

The Mirror has some pictures.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.

The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.

"deeds in Crimea" - are you talking annexation, invasion, free vote of mainly self declared Russians resulting in a 90%+ decision to leave Ukraine after a coup displacing the previously elected president with a following murderous rampage against ehtnic Russians in the country, or Russians committing genocide?

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

 1) I was against the invasion of Iraq before it started. Why do you ask?

Because you consistently take one side here, i wondered how that sat in a different conflict, that's all.

Yeah. I constantly took one side in that invasion too. I do try to be consistent on these things.  I am very much against imperialist aggression. Wherever it comes from.

Though taking one side can mean bias.

Are you saying the decades of pressure and interference from the west, including instigating violence and murder, that lead up to the Russian imperialist agression, was not imperialist?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

Which side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.

[glosterred]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russias-admiral-makarov-warship-26889015

The Mirror has some pictures.

This could or could not be the ship on fire

https://twitter.com/Fireblade577/status/1522580864583958528