Ukraine

[Bristol Red Rover]

DU thanks for your reply. It's a shame that the biggest player in all this, the US, pretends to be democratic. Yes perfect democracy is an ideal, but the US is far away from that. Republicans and Democrats mainly puppets pulled by the same strings. Slightly less so in the UK, but not far off. Anyway....

The destruction of civilians in Libya and Iraq by what I still see as essentially alliances of NATO members was shown quite clearly.

In Ukraine right now, Donetsk is being pummelled by Ukrainian artillary - some of that supplied by NATO countries. Some of that is targeting military, some of it not. Are the Russians worse? I'd guess on par, but who really knows. Certainly the civilian attacks are not one sided as described on mainstream Western media. Neither are the war crimes, far from it.

I agree Russia is the aggressor, but maintain that NATO, the US, EU, has pushed this situation to what we see. That is unforgivable. Who suffers in this global chess game? Not the people moving the pieces.

I think it's nip and tuck between the footy season starting before Taiwan kicks off. Never a dull moment.

[BigH]

The question I have is what does Johnson make of Ukraines desire to join the EU? Surely he must be against it. In which case is this a sop to the Russians that he’s trying to talk Zelenskiy out of EU membership?

[danumdon]

The question I have is what does Johnson make of Ukraines desire to join the EU? Surely he must be against it. In which case is this a sop to the Russians that he’s trying to talk Zelenskiy out of EU membership?

Id say someone as mendacious as Johnson would not mind seeking the Ukraine being a member of the EU, his thinking could quite well be that a situation like what currently exist in the Ukraine would cause them plenty of issues in the future, with regards to integration, reconstruction and political hegemony.

Johnson's first thought would be where he could slide in some of his cronies into some fat profitable reconstruction contracts.

[Bristol Red Rover]

That and just playing statesman in an attempt to up his standing in his Party, amongst a gullible electorate, and not forgetting to up his chances of international appointments when he's ousted, and the Sir Boris the Bodger accolade, if we still do that nonsense in 10 years time.

[Dutch Uncle]

DU thanks for your reply. It's a shame that the biggest player in all this, the US, pretends to be democratic. Yes perfect democracy is an ideal, but the US is far away from that. Republicans and Democrats mainly puppets pulled by the same strings. Slightly less so in the UK, but not far off. Anyway....

The destruction of civilians in Libya and Iraq by what I still see as essentially alliances of NATO members was shown quite clearly.

In Ukraine right now, Donetsk is being pummelled by Ukrainian artillary - some of that supplied by NATO countries. Some of that is targeting military, some of it not. Are the Russians worse? I'd guess on par, but who really knows. Certainly the civilian attacks are not one sided as described on mainstream Western media. Neither are the war crimes, far from it.

I agree Russia is the aggressor, but maintain that NATO, the US, EU, has pushed this situation to what we see. That is unforgivable. Who suffers in this global chess game? Not the people moving the pieces.

I think it's nip and tuck between the footy season starting before Taiwan kicks off. Never a dull moment.

I think we will just agree to disagree BRR.

I think it is just a matter of opinion of two sides. I believe that Russia is say >90% to blame for the starting of the conflict and <10% tension raising from various factors from the west (including the new NATO members who actively chose their path), whereas you seem more in the 50-50 area.

I agree that Ukrainians are also responsible for some warcrimes, not reported in the press, but they do have the provocation of being attacked. Again I tend towards the 90-10 and you the 50-50.

One thing is sure, just as 9-11 changed the world balance, Russia's invasion has also done so.

Time to talk about new signings and pre-season where our differences may well be just as great but far less important.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've said before, there were genuine grievances among the German people about the Sudetenland, Alsace-Lorraine, and their diaspora in Poland.

None of that justified launching the greatest war in human history. But I'm convinced there are people today who would have insisted that Hitler was only partly to blame, if they were transported back 85 years.

It is not "balance" to insist on equivalence. Never has been. Never will be.

[wilts rover]

The question I have is what does Johnson make of Ukraines desire to join the EU? Surely he must be against it. In which case is this a sop to the Russians that he’s trying to talk Zelenskiy out of EU membership?

He couldn't care less. The only thing Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson cares about is the career of Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson. As long as he sees Ukraine as a useful PR opportunity he will support them (which as I have said severa times before, is a good thing). Whether they are in or out of the EU is irrelevant to him.

Once they cease to be useful for his PR then he will be back off to the Russian oligarchs and their money. Lets hope that day doesn't arrive before he gets kicked out of office.

[wilts rover]

Again, the people pusing for this false equivalence of 'both sides equally to blame' and Putin will be appeased by giving him this much of Ukraine fail to accept what Putin actually thinks of Ukraine. He has said since at least 2008 he doesn't believe it should exist as a separate independent state - it is historically part of Russia and should be again.

You can't negotiate with people who dont believe you should exist. And your main contribution to 'starting' the conflict is to be living in your house.

As Zelensky has said - what Putin wants is the land of Ukraine without Ukrainian people in it. As long as Putin believes he can get what he wants by force this war will go on - whatever Ukraine or the west/US/EU/UK etc does.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine-fact-checking-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/

[Bristol Red Rover]

Wilts, Russia may well have always been ready to strike on Ukraine. For sure those beliefs of a greater Russia carry weight there. Ukraine has always been a border land between forces to the West, usually Poles, and forces to the East, usually Russians. The name Ukraine actually comes from the word for edge, ie its the borderlands.

2008 was immediately after NATO started talking about Ukraine being brought into their fold. That tells a story.

When the coup happened, it was decided to marginalise the Russian culture and language in Ukraine. Ie Russian speaking Ukraines were being made second class. Zelensky, albeit in puppet mode, pushed for this. This was the spark that ignited the keg. So when you talk about someone inferring people being pushed out of their homes, Zelensky was introducing this a good while back. The west was fully behind all this, and most likely pushing for it.

And do note Zelensky is there because he's an actor, performing for the benefit of 50% or so of Ukraines. He lies, he exaggerates, he pushes one view, one side - no wonder BST likes him. Understandably he's doing this now he is at war and losing territory and citizens and soldiers daily.

And BST, you once again play with rhetoric to make your point. Different situations entirely, stop the deliberate fudging.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Copied from a pdf, apologies for formatting. This is from the Russian Mod. Who knows how accurate, but tis interesting. You wouldn't expect Ukraine to be putting out this info. This includes fighters, trainers, and those repairing equipment. The "eliminated" means dead? Or dead and seriously injured? Or injured included in the "Departed" figures? Casualties quite possibly in the right ball park from stories heard about mercenaries/volunteers being used as cannon fodder.

Columns are:
1) Country
2) Arrived since 24.02.22
3) Eliminated
4) Departed
5) Total on 17.06.22

Poland 1831 378 272 1181
Romania 504 102 98 304
United Kingdom 422 101 95 226
Croatia 204 74 51 79
Belarus 197 69 59 69
France 183 59 45 79
Bosnia and Herzegovina 167 51 46 70
Estonia 164 55 49 60
Kosovo 156 61 60 35
Albania 150 42 40 68
Lithuania 130 50 44 36
Portugal 103 19 16 68
Germany 99 33 34 32
North Macedonia 79 21 19 39
Finland 74 20 27 27
Ireland 71 23 14 34
Iraly 71 21 26 24
Switzerland 55 15 18 22
Netherlands 42 12 13 17
Sweden 36 5 30 1
Czechia 33 14 15 4
Spain 20 4 4 12
Latvia 18 7 3 8
Norway 15 6 6 3
Belgium 14 2 9 3
Denmark 7 2 2 3
Austria 5 2 1 2
Greece 4 1 2 1
Bulgaria 3 0 1 2
Slovakia 3 0 1 2
Moldova 2 0 1 1
Montenegro 2 1 0 1
Hungary 1 0 0 1
Luxembourg 1 0 0 1
Total 4866 1250 1101 2515

Canada 601 162 169 270
USA 530 214 227 89
Bolivia 50 13 25 12
Columbia 40 10 9 21
Brasil 39 12 15 12
Peru 3 0 1 2
Argentina 2 0 1 1
Venezuela 1 0 0 1
Chile 1 0 0 1
Total 1267 411 447 409

Georgia 355 120 90 145
Syria 200 80 66 54
Turkey 61 19 42
Israel 35 9 8 18
Republic of Korea 13 4 8 1
Azerbaijan 1 1 0 0
Iran 1 0 0 1
Kazakhstan 1 0 0 1
Cyprus 1  0 0 1
China 1 0 0 1
Uzbekistan 1 0 0 1
Japan 1 0 0 1
Total 671 233 172 266

Nigeria 85 38 35 12
South Africa 25 9 11 5
Senegal 15 4 6 5
Guinea 10 4 4 2
Gabon 5 2 1 2
Liberia 5 2 1 2
Equatorial Guinea 2 1  0 1
Total 147 60 58 29

Australia 4 2 1 1
New Zealand 1 0 0 1
Total 5 2 1 2

In total 6956 1956 1779 3221

https://t.me/mod_russia_en/2247

[SydneyRover]

Who said this?

Dec 2017 ...................... a clue this person has good sporting relations and many influential and monied friends with close connections to Putin.

“I’m delighted to say there are increasing exports of British Kettle Crisps (sic) to Russia, and in spite of all the difficulties 300 Bentleys were sold this year in Russia - not, I believe, necessarily to employees of the foreign ministry.

“But nonetheless a sign of progress. Things are difficult but we want to work together with you on some issues and work to achieve a better future.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-russia_uk_5a3cd2bde4b06d1621b37fa2


Things are difficult but we want to work together with you on some issues and work to achieve a better future ................

So, all was well, a few difficulties a bout of hiccups is all, nothing that a bag of crisps and a roller can't sort out, no top spin on that one aye?

Did you not vote?

[drfchound]

Who said this?

Dec 2017 ...................... a clue this person has good sporting relations and many influential and monied friends with close connections to Putin.

“I’m delighted to say there are increasing exports of British Kettle Crisps (sic) to Russia, and in spite of all the difficulties 300 Bentleys were sold this year in Russia - not, I believe, necessarily to employees of the foreign ministry.

“But nonetheless a sign of progress. Things are difficult but we want to work together with you on some issues and work to achieve a better future.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-russia_uk_5a3cd2bde4b06d1621b37fa2


Things are difficult but we want to work together with you on some issues and work to achieve a better future ................

So, all was well, a few difficulties a bout of hiccups is all, nothing that a bag of crisps and a roller can't sort out, no top spin on that one aye?

Did you not vote?

Amazing, I didn’t know that Bentley was owned by Rolls Royce.

[wilts rover]

BRR

Zelensky is a native Russian speaker. His relatives fought and died in the Red Army fighting the Nazis.

If you want to keep spouting Putin's fascist propoganda - at least provide some balance to it. From both sides.

[wilts rover]

I doubt the Russian MOD would know the exact numbers of who is fighting with the Ukranian Army or what their casualty figures are - how would they - its not something you can pick up from satellite images.

However BRR's list does show how international this war is. Reminds me of the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War when ordinary people from all across the world came together to fight facism.

I hope he isn't saying that is a bad thing?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.
Your dismissal of anything you don't want to hear as "rhetoric" and "it's different this time" is as boring as it is intellectually vacuous.

You don't want to learn from history. You want to spout FSB propaganda sources as some sort of faux balance.

You're the epitome of the Useful Idiot that Russia has targeted in the West for generations.

Let me tell you what I hope. I hope you don't snap out of it and come to regret what you are doing. Because, just as with Hitler's apologists in the 1930s, I fear that the actions of Putin would have to be far, far worse than they are at the moment before you realised your error. So I'd rather you had the luxury of continuing to act as you are doing and never have to face up to just how wrong you are.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I doubt the Russian MOD would know the exact numbers of who is fighting with the Ukranian Army or what their casualty figures are - how would they - its not something you can pick up from satellite images.

However BRR's list does show how international this war is. Reminds me of the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War when ordinary people from all across the world came together to fight facism.

I hope he isn't saying that is a bad thing?

You doubt Russia has an effective spy network?

BST - There you go again, this time adding in the personal stuff. Sad how you can't see the poverty of your arguments when you do this. Of course it's up to you what team you support, rarely is it a logical thing. Maybe because Ukraine play in the same colour as The Dons?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Wilts, no I'm not saying the internationals are a bad thing, tho in this case it is questionable about who they're fighting for, even if you approve of who they're fighting against. The comparison with the Spanish Civil War doesn't really hold.

Seems they are made up of a lot of people with strong Ukrainian family ties. And then there are those who want a fight. And payment, looting opportunities? And some fighting purely because they believe in the cause. And some sent there by their governments. Interesting how reports are that they have often been sent to the worst positions. Apparently around 400 currently trapped in that industrial section right now.

Of course Zelensky has a non Nazi background. They wouldn't pick someone too obviously that way inclined. His desire to  eliminate the Russian language has to be noted.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Interesting again looking at BBC news where its mentioned that Ukraine downed a Russian SU 25, no mention of Russia doing the same. They do mention Russia destroying some of the recent international weapon contributions. But then they fa to mention the missile hit on a meeting of 50 Ukraine Generals and officers inDnepropetrovsk, reportedly killing all.

Given what appears to be a large scale daily destruction of Ukraine armaments and forces, far above what is being supplied, how soon will the Ukraine strategy change, and how?

The longer they wait to to negotiate a truce, which inevitably includes a loss of 20 to 25% of territory. The more territory they'll lose, the more they'll have to agree to give away. And they'll suffer more destruction, becoming weaker.

Whilst aid will be coming to them, given current world economics and internal politics, that will be a long way from what is needed for life there to get back on track. Meanwhile, military aid is likely to dry up too. As it is, I can't see Russia slowing down its mission till both Odessa and Kharkiv are taken.

[wilts rover]

Wilts, no I'm not saying the internationals are a bad thing, tho in this case it is questionable about who they're fighting for, even if you approve of who they're fighting against. The comparison with the Spanish Civil War doesn't really hold.

Seems they are made up of a lot of people with strong Ukrainian family ties. And then there are those who want a fight. And payment, looting opportunities? And some fighting purely because they believe in the cause. And some sent there by their governments. Interesting how reports are that they have often been sent to the worst positions. Apparently around 400 currently trapped in that industrial section right now.

Of course Zelensky has a non Nazi background. They wouldn't pick someone too obviously that way inclined. His desire to  eliminate the Russian language has to be noted.

BRR - why exactly doesn't the comparison with the Spanish Civil War hold?

A democratically elected government is being overthrown by a fascist dictator because he doesn't like their political direction and people who think they should be free to run their own country/free to HAVE their own country - have gone to help. There were numerous are various factions within the International Brigade and the Spanish Republicans too - I would say it is a perfect parrallel.

And you are on the wrong side.

Putin wont stop untl he has destroyed Ukraine - or until Ukraine's forces make him negotiate.

[ravenrover]

It's no longer front page headline news, apart from attempt to join EU, does this mean Politicians are losing interest, apart from the greasy piglet, will the supply of weaponry start diminishing will efforts be made to put pressure on Ukraine to negotiate can't see Putin backing down? Putin will not stop to achieve what  ever his aims now are it could drag on for months if not years not good for Countries economies

[Bristol Red Rover]

Wilts, no I'm not saying the internationals are a bad thing, tho in this case it is questionable about who they're fighting for, even if you approve of who they're fighting against. The comparison with the Spanish Civil War doesn't really hold.

Seems they are made up of a lot of people with strong Ukrainian family ties. And then there are those who want a fight. And payment, looting opportunities? And some fighting purely because they believe in the cause. And some sent there by their governments. Interesting how reports are that they have often been sent to the worst positions. Apparently around 400 currently trapped in that industrial section right now.

Of course Zelensky has a non Nazi background. They wouldn't pick someone too obviously that way inclined. His desire to  eliminate the Russian language has to be noted.

BRR - why exactly doesn't the comparison with the Spanish Civil War hold?

A democratically elected government is being overthrown by a fascist dictator because he doesn't like their political direction and people who think they should be free to run their own country/free to HAVE their own country - have gone to help. There were numerous are various factions within the International Brigade and the Spanish Republicans too - I would say it is a perfect parrallel.

And you are on the wrong side.

Putin wont stop untl he has destroyed Ukraine - or until Ukraine's forces make him negotiate.

You seem to forget there was a coup that ousted a democratically elected government. That's one big difference.

Then there was a war between the coup government and a region that objected to the coup.

Many radical right wingers, some with Nazi tattoos, well evidenced, were given guns and equipment to do this "nationalist" job. Thousands of civilians were killed. I don't recall the volunteers in the Spanish Civil War fighting with right wing extremists? Actually a number did go over to fight for Franco, tho I assume they're not who you're referring to. The "Ukraines" are not a socialist force for the people despite the propaganda.


And now this is not a civil war.

So many differences, just like BST and his weak rhetorical analogy between Putin and Hitler.

And, AGAIN, for the record, I'm not on anyone's side. Both are a bunch of crooks and gangsters abusing ordinary people. I believe that puts me on the right side. Though maybe you like to support these evil people?

[Bristol Red Rover]

The EU blockade of Kaliningrad by Lithuania could be problematic. Russia has said it will use force if the blockade is not lifted.

Kaliningrad is that small Russian territory on the Baltic coast between Lithuania and Poland isolated from the rest of Russia.

[Filo]

The EU blockade of Kaliningrad by Lithuania could be problematic. Russia has said it will use force if the blockade is not lifted.

Kaliningrad is that small Russian territory on the Baltic coast between Lithuania and Poland isolated from the rest of Russia.

Two NATO countries, it would take a brave or stupid man to use force, given they can’t break the Ukraines, any ground force would be wiped out

[Bristol Red Rover]

Two NATO countries, it would take a brave or stupid man to use force, given they can’t break the Ukraines, any ground force would be wiped out

Use of actual military force won't be pretty. Given the way Russia works, I don't think that is likely without having some "cunning plan". More likely is the force will be in some other form, who knows what?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Here's today's Russian Mod report which gives a view that most here will be unaware of. Note that this is pretty similar each day. Maybe exaggerated in parts? But quite possibly not. I think if even only half true it isn't looking too good for Ukraine.

I'd give the Ukraine version, but you probs see that anyway.

⚡️Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation in Ukraine (June 21, 2022)

▫️On June 20, at about 05.00 AM, the Kiev regime attempted to capture Snake Island.

The plan of the operation composed by the Kiev regime supposed to launch massive air and artillery attacks at Snake Island, to disembark troops and capture it.

The air attack has involved more than 15 Ukrainian attack and reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) adjusted by two Bayraktar-TB2 UAVs.

Russian means detected a Global Hawk RQ-4 strategic reconnaissance UAV of the U.S. Air Force at high altitudes near Snake Island.

Ukrainian UAVs were supported in air by S-300 air defence systems from their combat positions near Tuzla and Ochakov.

Missile and artillery attacks at Snake Island were launched by Ukrainian Tochka-U ballistic missiles, Uragan multiple rocket launchers and M777 155-mm howitzers from their combat positions to the west from Odessa and in Kubansky island.

Russian air defence means (Pantsir air defence missile and cannon system and Tor air defence missile system) have destroyed all the destruction means of the enemy launched at Snake Island.

The destroyed targets were: 13 UAVs, 4 Tochka-U missiles and 21 projectiles of Uragan multiple rocket launcher.

No Ukrainian destruction means have reached their targets in Snake Island.

The unsuccessful fire attack forced the enemy to abandon the landing to Snake Island.

After being convinced that the attempt to seize the island had failed, the Kiev regime took an attempt of a new gamble related to Russian gas infrastructure facilities in the north-western part of the Black Sea.

After 08.00 AM, anti-ship missiles and a Bayraktar-TB2 UAV attacked BK-1 and Krym-1 gas production platforms.

The Ukrainian provocation has resulted in an intensive fire at BK-1 platform, this area of the Black Sea has resulted to be in danger of an environmental disaster.

Sabotages of the Kiev regime have been reflected by launching Oniks cruise missiles at Shkolny military airfield near Odessa and the destruction of the hangars for Ukrainian Bayraktar-TB2 UAVs detected by Russian reconnaissance means.

2 artillery plattoons of M777 155-mm howitzers have been destroyed in Kubansky island.

 Russian Aerospace Forces have destroyed 2 launching ramps of S-300 air defence missile system near Ochakov and Tuzla (Odessa region).
Russian Federation Armed Forces continue launching attacks at military facilities located in Ukraine.

High-precision air-based missiles have destroyed 4 munitions depots near Mirnaya Dolina, Loskutovka, Podlesnoye (Lugansk People's Republic), as well as a Buk-M1air defence system near Seversk (Donetsk People's Republic).

In addition, manpower and military equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU), as well as of nationalist groups, including the Right Sector, have been neutralised near Belaya Gora, Novodruzhesk, Mirnaya Dolina, Podlesnoye and Volcheyarovka.

Within counter-battery warfare towards Donetsk, 2 plattoons of Uragan multiple rocket launchers have been neutralised near Zaryanoye and Dimitrov, as well as 2 plattoons of Giatsint-B 152-mm howitzers at their firing positions near Spartak and Podgornoye.

 Operational-tactical and army aviation has neutralised: 57 manpower and military equipment concentration areas, 1 command post of the AFU, as well as a multi-function missile guidance radars of S-300 air defence system near Seversk (Donetsk People's Republic).

[Bristol Red Rover]

Part 2

Missile troops and artillery have neutralised: 216 manpower and military equipment concentration areas of the AFU, 28 command posts, 64 artillery units at their firing positions, as well as 2 munitions depots.

Attacks launched by aviation, missile troops and artillery have resulted in 570 nationalists, 29 tanks and other armoured combat vehicles, as well as 16 special vehicles.

Russian air defence troops have shot down 1 Su-25 of the Ukrainian Air Force near Mazanovka (Kharkov region).

19 Ukrainian UAVs have been shot down near Krutaya Balka (Donetsk People's Republic), Dibrovo, Kapitolovka, Liptsy and Zavody (Kharkov region). 5 Tochka-U tactical missiles, as well as 30 projectiles of Uragan multiple rocket launchers have been intercepted near Lozovskiy (Lugansk People's Republic), Lozovaya, Kremenets, Aleksandrovka (Donetsk People's Republic), Dolgenkoye and Topolskoye (Kharkov region).

In total, 209 airplanes and 132 helicopters, 1,292 unmanned aerial vehicles, 348 anti-aircraft missile systems, 3,709 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 580 combat vehicles equipped with multiple rocket-launching systems, 2,065 field artillery cannons and mortars, as well as 3,760 units of special military equipment have been destroyed during the special military operation.

The enemy continues suffering considerable losses during the special military operation.

Only 28 servicemen of the 57th Mechanised Brigade of the AFU that operates in Severodonetsk have remained in the ranks, the other has been left only with commanders.

Reserves for replenishing the losses are exhausted.
Territorial Defence battalions that arrive from the western regions of Ukraine for reinforcing refuse to head to the front.

Servicemen of the 101st Territorial Defence Brigade of the AFU have stated that the refuse to be involved in the operations and headed to the rear area in the responsibility zone of Soledar operational tactical group.

There are more than 600 persons who have refused to fight.

M777 155-mm howitzers delivered by USA and European countries to Ukraine have become a good target for Russian destruction means.

15 howitzers, mostly yet unused and deployed near Druzhkovka railway station, have been destroyed over the past 24 hours.

Residents of settlements adjacent to operations zones in Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov and Zaporozhye regions are being forcibly mobilised. National police units block the settlements for these purposes. Men of all ages are detained to be mobilised.

Kiev regime spreads information about an allegedly secret trip of Zelensky to Lisichansk where he faced a shelling.

At the same time, the group of Ukrainian troops near Lisichansk has been cut off from supplies and is being under firing control of the Russian Armed Forces.

According to the Ukrainian prisoners, units of the 79th Airborne Assault Brigade have been abandoned by their commanders.

Servicemen who remained alive had nothing to do but to surrender for saving their lives.

The same situation is in the 57th Mechanised Brigade of the AFU. After losing the two thirds of personnel, its commander begged the group command to inform the AFU General Staff and Zelensky in person about the real situation.

Kiev regime continues spreading fake news in the best traditions of Kvartal-95 amid its military failures for doing something to stop the panic and the escape of its personnel from Donbass.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And the evidence for those numbers of destroyed aircraft and tanks is...where?

[Bristol Red Rover]

And the evidence for those numbers of destroyed aircraft and tanks is...where?

Like I said, could be exaggerated. The planes usually seems fairly evidenced. If the systems destroyed in the area attacking Snake Island happened as said, likely there'll be less attacks there, so we'll see.

Ukraine is going to ask for more and more weapons whatever. NATO may be seeing a bottomless pit and so pull back on that? It's costing NATO countries, ie me and you, lots to keep this up.

And then there's the advances being made by Russia, mainly by steadily surrounding troops rather than shock and awe. If these figures are correct then that will gain pace.

So what info do you have? And what info re Russian losses?

[danumdon]

If past performance of the Russian Military is anything to go by, everything they release into the hands of the media is suspect and more than likely bogus information with intent to portray a false impression of operations.

We all know this is not exclusive to the Russian sphere only and info coming from the other side can also be misinterpreted to give a false impression.

I would say the majority of observers will be forming their opinion of the war from other sources without direct connections to the perpetrators. There's plenty out there if people are interested enough.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I use this source for evidence of Russian losses.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1

I wouldn't wipe my arse on the figures that came from either combattant's ministry of defence. I wouldn't trust any war data that came with zero evidence and an appeal to have trust in the originator.