Ukraine

[ravenrover]

And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally

"a lot"? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?

Missing out Phosphorous and Thermobaric. Cluster bombs on civilians are illegal

Ukraine has used cluster bombs too. But it actually directly targets civilians (eg Donetsk), and uses them as human shields (eg Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk currently, NW of Donetsk currently). Russia may do do, but far less so - we'd have heard otherwise.

So are these the human shields that Russia wouldn't allow a safe passage to?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.

So you won't even go back and re-assess what you incorrectly saw first time?

There WERE at least 14 clear strikes. You yourself said that only one of those appears to have made a direct hit. Given the relatively small explosive payload of each and the fact that the defending forces are likely to be using protective measures, it's unlikely that near-misses are going to be having a major deleterious effect. But that's a second order issue. The first order issue is that the Russians are just vaguely lobbing munitions into an area three times the size of a football pitch and hoping they roll a couple of sixes. That was the entire point I was making. I get that you will argue like f**k against it, because you don't like to see the Russians criticised. But that doesn't change the facts. Even if you refuse to see them in front of your own eyes.

[Bristol Red Rover]

And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally

"a lot"? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?

Missing out Phosphorous and Thermobaric. Cluster bombs on civilians are illegal

Ukraine has used cluster bombs too. But it actually directly targets civilians (eg Donetsk), and uses them as human shields (eg Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk currently, NW of Donetsk currently). Russia may do do, but far less so - we'd have heard otherwise.

So are these the human shields that Russia wouldn't allow a safe passage to?

That the Ukraines wouldn't release. And won't release even now. They are the desperate ones. Think it through. Why would the Russians want them there? The Ukraine/West narrative on this is bonkers.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.

So you won't even go back and re-assess what you incorrectly saw first time?

There WERE at least 14 clear strikes. You yourself said that only one of those appears to have made a direct hit. Given the relatively small explosive payload of each and the fact that the defending forces are likely to be using protective measures, it's unlikely that near-misses are going to be having a major deleterious effect. But that's a second order issue. The first order issue is that the Russians are just vaguely lobbing munitions into an area three times the size of a football pitch and hoping they roll a couple of sixes. That was the entire point I was making. I get that you will argue like f**k against it, because you don't like to see the Russians criticised. But that doesn't change the facts. Even if you refuse to see them in front of your own eyes.

You miss my point, ironically much like a multople rocket launcher might do. One direct hit - not a small explosion as you can see - is a "success" for a killing force. Three hits close by is also significant - shrapnel, blast effects etc. So 4 out of 14 if you say so. I've seen much worse. I wondered why you chose this one to illustrate your point?

And the real point, that you avoided answering, was this is the same for both Ukraine and Russia out in the battle ground - so what? When Ukraine is shelling civilians in a city intentionally where does that sit for you? When Ukraine is consistently using human shields, how do you feel about that?

Your one sidedness in this is mindblowing given that I know you have a discerning brain.

[Bristol Red Rover]

  BRR, I think I will believe a British Generals reading of the situation and live and  recordings of Russian officers opinions before the statements and conclusions people like yourself gather from BBC news casts and Facebook.

Believe who you like, but wise to look behind the stories in as many ways as possible - and no, not FB or BBC. Or you can take the comfy way and just watch it play out and watch your government take your money and thow it into the war, and support policies that are costing you hundreds in fuel costs. How long are you happy to go along with that? Maybe you can afford it? Others can't. And it is ordinary people that are paying, mostly poorer ones. The richer ones just get rich on the crisis, they always do.What do the British Generals say about that?

[i_ateallthepies]

BRR, have you considered emigrating to live in Russia?  You make it sound so much better than anywhere in The West.

[Bristol Red Rover]

  I have just read a report where Russian intercepted  signals are reporting Ukrainian forces pushing down the sides of the Russian advance in some areas and the Russian advance forces are in danger of being surrounded.
  If they are surrounded they will come in for some of their own medicine and will be bombarded.
  Also the manpower reserves they have are of very poor quality as far as being recognised as a good fighting unit.

Progress from June 15 to June 22. Gorskoe and Zolotoe completely encircled, reportedly 2.5k Ukraines in that area. Guessing the Brit Generals are looking elsewhere?

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR, have you considered emigrating to live in Russia?  You make it sound so much better than anywhere in The West.

I missed where I suggested that it was much better. Are you confusing me pointing out that the West may be doing a dirty, and getting itself in one almighty pickle, and telling its citizens lies, with me saying how the new version of McD's in Moscow is mouthwatering irrestistable? Both Russia and the West are imperialist aggressors, both lie, both have elites gorging on the cream from what ordinary people create. But then some people are content that they're "our" aggressors, "our" masters, "our" liars etc. Really?

[ravenrover]

And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally

"a lot"? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?

Missing out Phosphorous and Thermobaric. Cluster bombs on civilians are illegal

Ukraine has used cluster bombs too. But it actually directly targets civilians (eg Donetsk), and uses them as human shields (eg Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk currently, NW of Donetsk currently). Russia may do do, but far less so - we'd have heard otherwise.

So are these the human shields that Russia wouldn't allow a safe passage to?

That the Ukraines wouldn't release. And won't release even now. They are the desperate ones. Think it through. Why would the Russians want them there? The Ukraine/West narrative on this is bonkers.

So why when Russia offered safe corridors and civilians were leaving did they decide to shell these corridors? Why do they want the civilians there to kill and frighten as many as possible so the next target they attack wont put up resistance or they know what they will get. Why is the Russisn tactic to obliterate there target, we've seen it before

[Bristol Red Rover]

RR, I think you are referring to reports from Mariupol at various times. There are also reports of Ukraines shelling the corridors and Russians having to close them for the safety of the civilians. Which is true I don't know, maybe both. Certainly Ukraines are using human shields in a number of areas if not in general.

Why would Russians want civilians kept in with the Ukraine forces? Makes no sense. In your reply you seem to confuse Ukraine forces and civilians? They only want to kill the Ukraine forces. The civilians are not a threat, they put up no resistance.

Are you aware of the human shields held by Ukrainian forces in Mariupol a while back, currently in Sieverodonetsk, and in the area NW of Donetsk? Are you aware of the massive daily shelling of civilians in Donetsk by Ukraine? Sure civilians have died from Russian shelling too. The BBC etc only publish one side of the story. You have to search for real news.

[ravenrover]

Real news or just what fits your agenda
Why shell civilians if they are no threat? Let me guess because they are just in the way as human shields?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Real news or just what fits your agenda
Why shell civilians if they are no threat? Let me guess because they are just in the way as human shields?

The people in Donetsk aren't human shields. I think your question has to be who is sniping from behind a 60 year old woman who's being forced into that position. And are you okay with that action?

Please enlighten me about what my agenda is.

[ravenrover]

Well the sources you quote says a lot

[Bristol Red Rover]

Well the sources you quote says a lot

Maybe because I'm giving info that is censored in the west, info to offer perspectives outside what we're told to think. The other side you have fed down our TV etc.

[Axholme Lion]

Well the sources you quote says a lot

Maybe because I'm giving info that is censored in the west, info to offer perspectives outside what we're told to think. The other side you have fed down our TV etc.

Some people don't want to see the possibility that the 'truth' is not what they are being fed by multinational big business,MSM,USA,EU et al. They are happy to be in a herd of sheep, agreeing with the narrative being pushed because it's 'right on' and trendy thing to do with their little blue and yellow flags in their windows. Half of them wouldn't even have been able to point out the region of Ukraine before this kicked off.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Eh up. Our resident fascist is back.

[Axholme Lion]

How predictable. I could have put money on it. The world according to BST.

[BobG]

And plenty of others Adolf.

BobG

[selby]

It resembles a breeding ground for the UK's fifth column to me Billy, with a few leaders among them.

[Bentley Bullet]

And plenty of others Adolf.

BobG

You are Karl's brother Groucho and I claim my £5.

[Axholme Lion]

And plenty of others Adolf.

BobG

Gullible brainwashed sheep. Baaa

[wilts rover]

Russian troops killed hospital patients who refused to be deported in 'revenge'.

When Russian troops first entered Mariapol in March they attempted to clear Hospital No1 (presumably to use themselves). When staff and patients refused to move - they dropped a 500kg bomb on it.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-20/they-burned-moscow-forces-bombed-hospital-patients-who-refused-to-be-deported

'human shields'

'gullible brainwashed sheep'

[wilts rover]

Mayor: Russian occupiers kidnap people in Melitopol.

According to Mayor Ivan Fedorov, mass kidnappings resumed in Russian-occupied Melitopol in Zaporizhzhia Oblast last week. “More than 500 people have been abducted in the last four months," he said.

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1540379558955941890

'human shields'

[Bristol Red Rover]

Russian troops killed hospital patients who refused to be deported in 'revenge'.

When Russian troops first entered Mariapol in March they attempted to clear Hospital No1 (presumably to use themselves). When staff and patients refused to move - they dropped a 500kg bomb on it.

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-20/they-burned-moscow-forces-bombed-hospital-patients-who-refused-to-be-deported

'human shields'

'gullible brainwashed sheep'

Terrible if it is as those few witnesses are reported to have said. Pretty poorly evidenced at this point.

Are you certain Ukraine has never bombed/shelled hospitals?

And make light of the human shields if you like. That's plain sick, or maybe you don't believe it happens?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Mayor: Russian occupiers kidnap people in Melitopol.

According to Mayor Ivan Fedorov, mass kidnappings resumed in Russian-occupied Melitopol in Zaporizhzhia Oblast last week. “More than 500 people have been abducted in the last four months," he said.

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1540379558955941890

'human shields'

Is the Mayor reliable, or has he got interests? "kidnapped" in his translated words, tho quite probably includes arrests for a variety of reasons, probably not including being one of the oligarchs, or local gangsters as they'd have run away a long time before.

So, seems to be on the far fringes of hearsay.

Ooooh, I see you make light of human shields again. Can't you see how low that is? Would you use them?

[BobG]

Even if somebody has 'interests', somebody has been arrested, somebody is an oligarch, or somebody is a gangster I really can't see how that makes the Mayor of Melitopol into a liar when he speaks about what the Russians have been doing. Yes. The guy is Ukrainian. Yes. He will be upset. Yes. He will likely exaggerate. But lie? I really don't get how you can say this is the 'fringes of hearsay'. If that were true, almost everything you have said, almost everything Billy has said, is equally unbelievable because it is 'hearsay'.

We all know, BRR, that both sides have agendas. We all know that reporting in this country is shamefully partisan with shameful agendas to drive. We all know that British television is terrified of its existance being torn out by the equally shameful government that the country is afflicted with - and so dare not perform the one function we need above all others. But none of that makes the Mayor of Melitopol a liar. None of that makes what is reported into something that you can condemn as hearsay. None of that justifies ignoring the supremely well documented atrocities committed by the Russians - even if the Ukrainians are committing atrocities of their own.  If they are, they will be found out sooner or later. It is not for you to ignore the former and insist on the latter. Wars lead to terrible things. We, above almost all other nations should know that. Incontrovertibly the Russians are behaving like their Visigothic forbears. Highly probably, the Ukrainians will be doing likewise.

Leave it at that. This thread has become tiresome in the extreme.

BobG

[Bristol Red Rover]

Even if somebody has 'interests', somebody has been arrested, somebody is an oligarch, or somebody is a gangster I really can't see how that makes the Mayor of Melitopol into a liar when he speaks about what the Russians have been doing. Yes. The guy is Ukrainian. Yes. He will be upset. Yes. He will likely exaggerate. But lie? I really don't get how you can say this is the 'fringes of hearsay'. If that were true, almost everything you have said, almost everything Billy has said, is equally unbelievable because it is 'hearsay'.

We all know, BRR, that both sides have agendas. We all know that reporting in this country is shamefully partisan with shameful agendas to drive. We all know that British television is terrified of its existance being torn out by the equally shameful government that the country is afflicted with - and so dare not perform the one function we need above all others. But none of that makes the Mayor of Melitopol a liar. None of that makes what is reported into something that you can condemn as hearsay. None of that justifies ignoring the supremely well documented atrocities committed by the Russians - even if the Ukrainians are committing atrocities of their own.  If they are, they will be found out sooner or later. It is not for you to ignore the former and insist on the latter. Wars lead to terrible things. We, above almost all other nations should know that. Incontrovertibly the Russians are behaving like their Visigothic forbears. Highly probably, the Ukrainians will be doing likewise.

Leave it at that. This thread has become tiresome in the extreme.

BobG

A mayor in one of the more deeply corrupt countries in the world. You don't think he'd lie? Russia is probably on a par, but here it's a Ukrainian mayor. I don't know him, but neither do you or Wilts. "kidnappings" is emotive, and quite  possibly untrue in at least some of those cases. Meanwhile, withouta full in dependant investigation, it is hearsay as much as that might trouble you.

We agree war brings atrocities. This is why it should have been, and could so easily have been averted. Shame on all those responsible.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Of course BRR you forget that if Russia had kept theirselves in their own country there would be no war in Ukraine at all.

[glosterred]

Of course BRR you forget that if Russia had kept theirselves in their own country there would be no war in Ukraine at all.

Come on, let’s not bring common sense and facts into this argument

[Bristol Red Rover]

Of course BRR you forget that if Russia had kept theirselves in their own country there would be no war in Ukraine at all.

I agree. And then Ukraine would be in NATO, and the EU having leapfrogged Serbia despite having possibly the most corrupt goverment amongst those wanting/having entry.

Gradual increase of weapons on Ukraine soil. Further use of the v dodgy chemical facilities.

Gradual removal of Russian language. Effectively making Russian speakers second class. Ukraine nationalists gaining power, complete with all that very dodgy philosophy and history.

Or maybe you believe the BBC?

Alternatively, NATO and EU could have assured Russia that Ukraine would not be a member. How easy is that?

I forgot, also the many murders of those peacefully objecting to the coup and EU/NATO alignment. Then the conscripting of outright Nazis to send into Russian speaking areas. But hey, why not ignore that and stick only to the Billy one sided " evil Russia invaded" story and have a nice cup of tea and biscuits and turn over to the sports pages.