Ukraine

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287

Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.

Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?

Agreed, this is outrageous. Guessing you are also meaning that Ukraines doing the same are excused or doing it without consent of generals?

I'm just merely expressing my outrage as a human being.

As far as I'm concerned Russia is the aggressor and whatever Ukraine do to strike back at Putin is OK by me.

[BobG]

Ah but it's ok for the Russians to do that Wilts. The Ukrainians are probably doing the same......

BobG

[Dutch Uncle]

In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.

Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.

Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)

Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple. 

[wilts rover]

Russian troops apparently set their own lorries on fire to avoid being sent to the front:

https://twitter.com/mi6rogue/status/1541480266765574151

[BillyStubbsTears]

DU

We shouldn't be surprised at Putin doing this. He did it in Grozny. He did it in Aleppo.

He's a savage.

We shouldn't be surprised. Just depressed at intelligent people willingly being duped by him.

[wilts rover]

Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:

Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”

https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249

[mushRTID]

Apologies if this has been covered.

I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?

[BillyStubbsTears]

This. Sums it up exactly.

https://mobile.twitter.com/VSvartdal/status/1541506307991257092

[wilts rover]

Apologies if this has been covered.

I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?

Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:

a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him

Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Please let's see the day when Putin faces justice one way or another.

How long can the NATO troops amassing on the boarders be held back?

I would imagine the Military head honchos have already planned how to hit Russian targets should the nod be given.

Surely the world leaders can summon enough courage to put an end to all this and rid the world of this sub human despot.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287

Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.

Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?

Agreed, this is outrageous. Guessing you are also meaning that Ukraines doing the same are excused or doing it without consent of generals?

I'm just merely expressing my outrage as a human being.

As far as I'm concerned Russia is the aggressor and whatever Ukraine do to strike back at Putin is OK by me.

Including deliberately killing innocent civilians. Right...

[Bristol Red Rover]

Apologies if this has been covered.

I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?

Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:

a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him

Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.

Or when what Russia sees as Russian territories, for whatever reason, are taken - 1/3 to 1/2 of what Ukraine was? At the mo, that appears to be approx Kharkiv downwards and a 50 to 100 mile strip over as far as Moldova.

Russia states a desire to "de nazify" Ukraine too. It is loaded with dodgy thigs, but then so is Russia. And most nations for that matter, including ours.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:

Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”

https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249

Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?

Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?

And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike. Assuming it was, you again have to think why would they do this deliberately? Maybe they did? But as you can see, the shopping centre is v close to the railway station, possibly a target as it is a crossing point for the Ukraine rail system, a much needed one following the recent destruction of the rail bridge upstream. More likely, is the industrial area the other side of the railway was targeted, an industrial area being used for military purposes.

[SydneyRover]

No it would be absolutely dumb, due to the risk of being found out.

Wasn't it you trumpeting the accuracy of russian ordnance only a few days ago BRR?

[Bristol Red Rover]

No it would be absolutely dumb, due to the risk of being found out.

Wasn't it you trumpeting the accuracy of russian ordnance only a few days ago BRR?

Go back and re read that, I was saying how BST used a terrible example. I'd see much worse targeting.

But this wasn't a multi rocket attack, it seems it was a missile attack. Why that was in accurate, who knows.

As for false flags. Yep, they would look daft, but then it's for short term gain, so I doubt that will be a consideration. Further, Ukraine has control of western media via its support from NATO.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:

Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”

https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249

Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?

Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?

And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike.

Oh aye. False flag operations happen alright. Like the Moscow apartment block bombings that Putin used as his reason for obliterating Grozny.

Why would it make sense for Russia to do this? Because they don't give a f**k about public opinion. They are terrorists in the precise meaning of the word. Their military strategy is to terrorise their opponents.

And much as the odd Useful Idiot in the West is helpful to them, at core they want to be seen as the terrorists they are. Did you hear Lavrov last week being interviewed. He started by trotting out exactly the same excuses that you do. NATO. EU. De-Nazification. Ukraine aggression. Then he lost his cool and said the single most chilling line I have heard from a European leader since WWII. He said "Russia is not squeaky clean. Russia is what it is. And we are not ashamed of showing who we are."

You carry on posting excuses for them. People like you will be villified for all time by right thinking people, assuming we survive this.

[SydneyRover]

No it would be absolutely dumb, due to the risk of being found out.

Wasn't it you trumpeting the accuracy of russian ordnance only a few days ago BRR?

Go back and re read that, I was saying how BST used a terrible example. I'd see much worse targeting.

But this wasn't a multi rocket attack, it seems it was a missile attack. Why that was in accurate, who knows.

As for false flags. Yep, they would look daft, but then it's for short term gain, so I doubt that will be a consideration. Further, Ukraine has control of western media via its support from NATO.

Not as daft as your arguments BRR, look how the downing of an aircraft and the murder of innocent people was found out and modern radar tracking can determine the flight path of incoming and work out the point of origin.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:

Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”

https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249

Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?

Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?

And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike.

Oh aye. False flag operations happen alright. Like the Moscow apartment block bombings that Putin used as his reason for obliterating Grozny.

Why would it make sense for Russia to do this? Because they don't give a f**k about public opinion. They are terrorists in the precise meaning of the word. Their military strategy is to terrorise their opponents.

And much as the odd Useful Idiot in the West is helpful to them, at core they want to be seen as the terrorists they are. Did you hear Lavrov last week being interviewed. He started by trotting out exactly the same excuses that you do. NATO. EU. De-Nazification. Ukraine aggression. Then he lost his cool and said the single most chilling line I have heard from a European leader since WWII. He said "Russia is not squeaky clean. Russia is what it is. And we are not ashamed of showing who we are."

You carry on posting excuses for them. People like you will be villified for all time by right thinking people, assuming we survive this.

Get a grip. Britain is not squeaky clean, the US is positively filthy - and effectively runs NATO. Or maybe you have a thoroughly blinkered view of the world?

Are you saying the USA has never performed, or sponsored, false flags?

[Bristol Red Rover]

No it would be absolutely dumb, due to the risk of being found out.

Wasn't it you trumpeting the accuracy of russian ordnance only a few days ago BRR?

Go back and re read that, I was saying how BST used a terrible example. I'd see much worse targeting.

But this wasn't a multi rocket attack, it seems it was a missile attack. Why that was in accurate, who knows.

As for false flags. Yep, they would look daft, but then it's for short term gain, so I doubt that will be a consideration. Further, Ukraine has control of western media via its support from NATO.

Not as daft as your arguments BRR, look how the downing of an aircraft and the murder of innocent people was found out and modern radar tracking can determine the flight path of incoming and work out the point of origin.

Huh?

[River Don]

Apologies if this has been covered.

I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?

Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:

a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him

Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.

I suppose there is a d) Putin might peg it because of I'll health. Then we either get a more determined militaristic Russian leader or there is a shake up for the better.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.


Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.

Only, from what  I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256

https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).


And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4

And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/



I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?

So. No response?

[wilts rover]

Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:

Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”

https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249

Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?

Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?

And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike. Assuming it was, you again have to think why would they do this deliberately? Maybe they did? But as you can see, the shopping centre is v close to the railway station, possibly a target as it is a crossing point for the Ukraine rail system, a much needed one following the recent destruction of the rail bridge upstream. More likely, is the industrial area the other side of the railway was targeted, an industrial area being used for military purposes.

Putting your bias aside do you think the Russian government might be habitual liars?

The rest of you post is meaningless and the answer to the first question found in history books about covert operations. I'll lend you some.

[wilts rover]

Apologies if this has been covered.

I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?

Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:

a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him

Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.

Or when what Russia sees as Russian territories, for whatever reason, are taken - 1/3 to 1/2 of what Ukraine was? At the mo, that appears to be approx Kharkiv downwards and a 50 to 100 mile strip over as far as Moldova.

Russia states a desire to "de nazify" Ukraine too. It is loaded with dodgy thigs, but then so is Russia. And most nations for that matter, including ours.

Then why did they head for Kyiv in the inital invasion?

Putin has said his goal is to wipe Ukraine off the map - its an illegal state and historically part of Russia. This is one of the few occassions when I do believe him. As for de-nazification you have already seen what he means by that - its Ukraine without Ukranians in it.

I stand by my first assesment - he wont be stopping until he has reached the Polish/Romanian borders unless he is forced to.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.


Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.

Only, from what  I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256

https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).


And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4

And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/



I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?

So. No response?

Google. It's a munitions factory.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:

Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”

https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249

Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?

Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?

And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike. Assuming it was, you again have to think why would they do this deliberately? Maybe they did? But as you can see, the shopping centre is v close to the railway station, possibly a target as it is a crossing point for the Ukraine rail system, a much needed one following the recent destruction of the rail bridge upstream. More likely, is the industrial area the other side of the railway was targeted, an industrial area being used for military purposes.

Putting your bias aside do you think the Russian government might be habitual liars?

The rest of you post is meaningless and the answer to the first question found in history books about covert operations. I'll lend you some.

For sure, just like all nations. I hear the UK is run by an habitual liar?

So you agree about false flags being a normal process of politics.

[ravenrover]

I see the latest line from Moscow is that it was a disused shopping centre

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.


Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.

Only, from what  I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256

https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).


And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4

And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/



I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?

So. No response?

Google. It's a munitions factory.

Are you for real? I genuinely thought you were treating this seriously.

And even if we take on board this "Google says it so I believe it" approach, the missiles destroyed residential buildings 300m from that factory. So what possible evidence do you have that it was the factory that was being targetted?

Here's a thought! Perhaps you are just regurgitating propaganda from Russia-supporting agents? That would appear to be the logical conclusion.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Apologies if this has been covered.

I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?

Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:

a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him

Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.

Or when what Russia sees as Russian territories, for whatever reason, are taken - 1/3 to 1/2 of what Ukraine was? At the mo, that appears to be approx Kharkiv downwards and a 50 to 100 mile strip over as far as Moldova.

Russia states a desire to "de nazify" Ukraine too. It is loaded with dodgy thigs, but then so is Russia. And most nations for that matter, including ours.

Then why did they head for Kyiv in the inital invasion?

Putin has said his goal is to wipe Ukraine off the map - its an illegal state and historically part of Russia. This is one of the few occassions when I do believe him. As for de-nazification you have already seen what he means by that - its Ukraine without Ukranians in it.

I stand by my first assesment - he wont be stopping until he has reached the Polish/Romanian borders unless he is forced to.

To take literally what someone says about their intentions can be a foolish way to live your life. They may say that for all kinds of reasons, I'm sure you have enough nouse to realise that.

As I said before, Ukraine means the edge, the border. It has historically been a region, not a place, of fluctuation between a great many different forces or nations. As a kind of buffer zone between Russia and Europe it was fullfilling a purpose, when that changed with NATO and the EU encouraging it into their fold by carrot for the mouth, and carrot for the ass, then the staus quo changed. The coup was the final part in that which burst the bubble. So when one of the forces involved says what was said, context is king.

Denazification - well, there is a strong element of Nazi culture within Ukraine, some of their hero's, some of it their mobster rulers, and some it in their government. And you know about the right wing nationalists who were given guns and tanks and sent to the Donbass. The background to the violent aggression I think that's what's being spoken about. I think removing that from Eastern and Southern Ukraine will most likely be as far as that goes. On balance, in itself, ignoring the warring to achieve that, it's a good thing. Playing it down is a bad thing, though most clearly what the West does. And then of course Russia taking over creates a new level of mobsters in those areas. An improvement maybe marginally, maybe not.

Seeing the above as part of a full takeover of Ukraine is just taking words too literally. Words on a bus if you like.

Russia headed for Kyiv to try it on, and to distract Ukraine troops from the other regions where it consequently very easily seized territory. I'm sure if the Ikraines had laid down their arms, Russia would have happily taken over. Did it, does it want control over the whole of Ukraine? I doubt it. It's a logistical nightmare. Taking a third to a quarter roughly in the areas it has done, plus Khakiv and over to Moldova would be perfect for Russia.

However, as this war progresses, Ukraine collapses ever quicker, there may be a time when taking the whole country is served on a plate for Russia.

Estonia with its partial blockade of Kaliningrad opens up a can of worms. I can see that being a far bigger source of world ending danger than Ukraine.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.


Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.

Only, from what  I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256

https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).


And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4

And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/



I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?

So. No response?

Google. It's a munitions factory.

Are you for real? I genuinely thought you were treating this seriously.

And even if we take on board this "Google says it so I believe it" approach, the missiles destroyed residential buildings 300m from that factory. So what possible evidence do you have that it was the factory that was being targetted?

Here's a thought! Perhaps you are just regurgitating propaganda from Russia-supporting agents? That would appear to be the logical conclusion.

You can't find the info on google? Ah, well.

You have evidence that it was a missile? I'm not saying it wasn't but quite possibly not. Was it targetted, of course not. Did the allies murder people in Dresden, Hiroshima - come on, this is war, shit happens, sometime by pure accident, sometimes by carelessness, and sometimes by intention.

The big deal, and something you purposefully avoided replying to a good while back  (why?) , is finding a solution to the problem. What would you do?

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's interesting how the issue of war crimes comes up, and most in this discussion have been suckered into the politics of this.

On the one hand, a missile or shell falling on the wrong target is a war crime - whether by accident or intent. On the other hand, conning mainly disaffected brainwashed working class youths into joining a military and laying down their lives isn't a crime. Of course this has been war throughout history, although through the vast majority of history part of the deal of being a warrior was permission to rape and pillage. That has now been officially taken away in most countries and replaced by nationalist ideals of all kinds aimed at the poorer classes. It stinks.