Ukraine

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.

Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.

Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.

Billy trying to force his Blinkers on everyone. I wonder what kind of politics or world that would lead to?

And what is your opinion on the use of Nazi symbols, phrases and references?

[Ldr]

I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.

Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.

I don’t agree with much AL says but he’s entitled to his opinions. Are you into censorship now whilst accusing others of been facist?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Would you agree with AL being allowed to have a dead Ukranian child as his avatar?

[Ldr]

Would you agree with AL being allowed to have a dead Ukranian child as his avatar?

I’d find it distasteful but within his rights

[BillyStubbsTears]

One raped by a Russian conscript?

[Ldr]

I refer you to my comment above.

[Axholme Lion]

I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.

Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.

This whole situation is a creation of the USA, NATO, EU et al by the engineering of the overthrow of the legitimate government and the ensuing attacks on pro Russian eastern Ukraine. If we're talking about fascists i assume you mean the Azov regiment?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

We are all being lied to by the western media on an industrial scale about the causes of this fighting and what is really happening. Unfortunately most people do not question this narrative and believe the lies they are being fed.

Both sides will be going over the top at times. It's not a hollywood film portraying good v bad. It's not that simple. Open your mind and your eyes.

https://www.opindia.com/2022/04/videos-of-neo-nazi-ukrainian-forces-killing-russian-prisoners-of-war-go-viral/

[SydneyRover]

But if you have a mangy dog you don't kill the owners and burn the house down.

[drfchound]

Would you agree with AL being allowed to have a dead Ukranian child as his avatar?

But he hasn’t done that has he.

[BillyStubbsTears]

To the fascist supporters in here, and their apologists.

This is how Russia is waging it's war. A 1000kg warhead on a notoriously inaccurate missile, lobbed at a town 200 miles from the front line, destroying a shopping mall and killing 18 civillians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_strike_on_a_shopping_center_in_Kremenchuk.webm

Just another day in Putin's imperialistic war.

By the way BRR. After you tied yourself up in knots suggesting it might be a false flag, Russia has now admitted it was its own attack. They are claiming that they used a missile with shit accuracy, in a precision attack on a warehouse holding "western munitions" and that it was the unfortunate detonation of those munitions that destroyed an unused shopping mall.

Funny that. Cos you went to great lengths to  show that the missile struck an area between a railway line and the edge of the shopping mall. Where there were no warehouses before the strike.

Are you comfortable acting as a stooge for a fascist butcher? 

[Axholme Lion]

To the fascist supporters in here, and their apologists.

This is how Russia is waging it's war. A 1000kg warhead on a notoriously inaccurate missile, lobbed at a town 200 miles from the front line, destroying a shopping mall and killing 18 civillians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_strike_on_a_shopping_center_in_Kremenchuk.webm

Just another day in Putin's imperialistic war.

By the way BRR. After you tied yourself up in knots suggesting it might be a false flag, Russia has now admitted it was its own attack. They are claiming that they used a missile with shit accuracy, in a precision attack on a warehouse holding "western munitions" and that it was the unfortunate detonation of those munitions that destroyed an unused shopping mall.

Funny that. Cos you went to great lengths to  show that the missile struck an area between a railway line and the edge of the shopping mall. Where there were no warehouses before the strike.

Are you comfortable acting as a stooge for a fascist butcher?

You seem happy to support a party which took the UK into an illegal war to suck up to our US masters.
War is nasty, by it's very nature the innocent suffer. Both sides tell lies, fact. Don't believe everything on the MSM as true. Why do we only here how many losses the Russians suffer on the news. The west have dragged the incident on by supplying weapons, if not for this the region would now be secure.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hello our visiting fascist.

I left the Labour party in protest at Iraq, d**khead.

And in any case, nothing the mitary did in Iraq comes close to the things that Putin has done in Grozny, or Aleppo or the Donbas that you've slavered over.

Support this monster if that's who you are. Just don't ever try to convince anyone you are on the right side. You are a moral black hole. 

[Bristol Red Rover]

To the fascist supporters in here, and their apologists.

This is how Russia is waging it's war. A 1000kg warhead on a notoriously inaccurate missile, lobbed at a town 200 miles from the front line, destroying a shopping mall and killing 18 civillians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_strike_on_a_shopping_center_in_Kremenchuk.webm

Just another day in Putin's imperialistic war.

By the way BRR. After you tied yourself up in knots suggesting it might be a false flag, Russia has now admitted it was its own attack. They are claiming that they used a missile with shit accuracy, in a precision attack on a warehouse holding "western munitions" and that it was the unfortunate detonation of those munitions that destroyed an unused shopping mall.

Funny that. Cos you went to great lengths to  show that the missile struck an area between a railway line and the edge of the shopping mall. Where there were no warehouses before the strike.

Are you comfortable acting as a stooge for a fascist butcher? 

I was suggesting possibilities whilst others leapt on the deliberate targeting of civilians line, including you. That behaviour is being a lap dog to lies and propaganda. I'm not saying Russia is blameless in this war, not at all, but I'm not sucking up the imperialist war mongering propaganda as you and others here are. I recognise your right to wave a flag, you and so many others.

The missile did not appear to strike the shopping mall. Ukraine probably was storing weapons next to it. You think that is not shameful? As you also don't think Ukraine using human shields, basing itself in or adjacent to civilians including hospitals. There's your values.

[Dutch Uncle]

In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.

Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.

Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)

Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple. 

I meant to get back to this. It was around 500 civilians killed by NATO air strikes in Serbia?

If so, that would be 1/16th the number that Mladic's Serb-backed butchers massacred in a couple of days in Srebrenica. If the NATO action did anything to prevent a repeat, it was justified.

RUBBISH. WTF was Serbia any business of NATO? NATO is clearly a tool in the west and international big business to shape the world in their desired shape. SCUM.

Axholme, I am sure you are completely aware that I find your post offensive and would simply like to ask specifically who within NATO are you calling scum. Is it:

•   The politicians who make all the decisions to either accept a NATO new member, launch any NATO operation, define new strategic concepts etc

•   The current military staff serving under a current rotation at a NATO establishment or Headquarters who direct an operation authorized by the politicians according to their guidance

•   The permanent staff (many civilians, international civil servants if you like)

•   All of the above   

If the first then you are calling scum every political leader of each NATO nation including the US and the UK, but also Norway, Denmark, Greece, France, Canada, Germany, Poland just to name a very few. The operation referred to in my post was in 1995 when John Major was PM, was authorised by a United Nations Security Council Resolution (are you calling them scum as well). The operation had next to no collateral damage, ended the war in Bosnia, lead to peace and Mladic and Karadzic being found guilty of war crimes (remember Srebenica?). The operation in 1999 (which I was not referring to originally) was launched when Tony Blair was PM, did cause ca 500 deaths by collateral damage which is indeed bad, but can claim to have saved many more lives than that.

If your answer is the second then these are people who followed strict guidelines.

If your answer is 3 or 4 then I am personally being attacked. I think it likely you know very little indeed about my work, but in my 35 years civilian service I always questioned my role and the role of NATO.  Throughout I was always convinced NATO was trying to establish and protect peace. I am proud to have done a tiny amount and am honoured to have met some wonderful people who truly have made a difference.   

The two operations above are the only offensive ones ever undertaken by NATO – NATO refused to enter operations in Iraq, and was involved as a peace-keeping force in Afghanistan (the initial ISAF force was an ad-hoc coalition, not NATO). In Libya NATO was responsible for the no-fly zone, but it was the US who unilaterally launched the air strikes. NATO was asked to take over so that strikes could be vetoed (from wiki):

24 March 2011: In telephone negotiations, French foreign minister Alain Juppé agreed to let NATO take over all military operations on 29 March at the latest, allowing Turkey to veto strikes on Gaddafi ground forces from that point forward.[76] Later reports stated that NATO would take over enforcement of the no-fly zone and the arms embargo, but discussions were still under way about whether NATO would take over the protection of civilians mission. Turkey reportedly wanted the power to veto airstrikes, while France wanted to prevent Turkey from having such a veto.[77][78]

This is one example of the fact of all NATO nations having to agree an operation or allow accession to a new member (like Sweden & Finland today) means it is a difficult organization for any one nation (particularly the US) to high-jack. Indeed NATO has on occasions refused some aggressive proposals (e.g first Gulf War).  Other operations seem to be quickly forgotten such as Humanitarian Relief to Pakistan after an earthquake.

With regards to NATO expansion, not one single nation has been asked to join NATO, it is by request and every single nation concerned has positively wanted this. In my time (I retired more than a decade ago) expansion was never an objective of NATO.

That is the reality I experienced from the inside for 35 years and you now seem to be calling me and my colleagues scum.

None of this is remotely comparable with the brutal actions of Russia in Grozny, Aleppo, Mariupol, and as it looks like many more cities to come.

I hope you read this sufficiently carefully and can decide that your comment may have been founded on insufficient information and knowledge. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

To the fascist supporters in here, and their apologists.

This is how Russia is waging it's war. A 1000kg warhead on a notoriously inaccurate missile, lobbed at a town 200 miles from the front line, destroying a shopping mall and killing 18 civillians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_strike_on_a_shopping_center_in_Kremenchuk.webm

Just another day in Putin's imperialistic war.

By the way BRR. After you tied yourself up in knots suggesting it might be a false flag, Russia has now admitted it was its own attack. They are claiming that they used a missile with shit accuracy, in a precision attack on a warehouse holding "western munitions" and that it was the unfortunate detonation of those munitions that destroyed an unused shopping mall.

Funny that. Cos you went to great lengths to  show that the missile struck an area between a railway line and the edge of the shopping mall. Where there were no warehouses before the strike.

Are you comfortable acting as a stooge for a fascist butcher? 

I was suggesting possibilities whilst others leapt on the deliberate targeting of civilians line, including you. That behaviour is being a lap dog to lies and propaganda. I'm not saying Russia is blameless in this war, not at all, but I'm not sucking up the imperialist war mongering propaganda as you and others here are. I recognise your right to wave a flag, you and so many others.

The missile did not appear to strike the shopping mall. Ukraine probably was storing weapons next to it. You think that is not shameful? As you also don't think Ukraine using human shields, basing itself in or adjacent to civilians including hospitals. There's your values.

1) I did not say Russia was deliberately targeting civilians. They don't have the capability with these weapons to deliberately target ANYTHING. My point was that they are recklessly terrorising civilian areas with  poorly guided munitions. I'm not saying they are trying to kill civilians with these attacks. I'm saying they don't give a damn.

2) "Ukraine probably was storing weapons next to it (the shopping mall)." How in the name of God can you possibly justify that comment and insist you are not a stooge for Russian propaganda? You have absolutely zero evidence that anyhting was being stored in that vicinity. You yourself posted aerial photographs showing that there was nothing within the vicinity of the impact crater other than a railway line and the shopping centre itself. This comment is a frankly disgusting effort to defend the indefensible. You are inventing an alternative truth world to justify what you want to be true.

[Bristol Red Rover]

1) I did not say Russia was deliberately targeting civilians. They don't have the capability with these weapons to deliberately target ANYTHING. My point was that they are recklessly terrorising civilian areas with  poorly guided munitions. I'm not saying they are trying to kill civilians with these attacks. I'm saying they don't give a damn.

2) "Ukraine probably was storing weapons next to it (the shopping mall)." How in the name of God can you possibly justify that comment and insist you are not a stooge for Russian propaganda? You have absolutely zero evidence that anyhting was being stored in that vicinity. You yourself posted aerial photographs showing that there was nothing within the vicinity of the impact crater other than a railway line and the shopping centre itself. This comment is a frankly disgusting effort to defend the indefensible. You are inventing an alternative truth world to justify what you want to be true.

1) Good to hear that clarified. We know they are using some older less accurate missiles. I think they should only be used for less population sensitive targets. They do have more accurate missiles. Do they care? Arguable, but then if they truly didn't care at all, there would be far more damage to civillians, obviously so.

2) You're right, I have no evidence, though you know munitions are stored around Ukraine. You know heavy weapons, donated by NATO countries, are being transported and stored. From a couple of explosions I've seen, eg in Khakov, there were munitions stored near population centres. Being logical, or you may say cynical, Ukraine will store these weapons in places out of sight where possible. That will more easily be in densely populated areas or in industrial areas. They are also making every attempt possible to gain more sympathy from the west, so damage to population will be a positive there. Indeed, the west itself wishes to give more military support though is restrained by electorates that are becoming less supportive. Reports of cililians being killed is the number one way of slowing down this war fatigue.

I think you are confused about what I was posting that picture for. My point was it was not a hit on the shops as was being said in the media and on here. But yes it was very close and so the explosion will have damaged the shops. Without seeing that in video I'm not sure anyone will every be able to conclude how it happened with the fog of propaganda on #both sides.

Your final point is laughable given that you are doing exactly that.

And now we have a new civilian incident. Again "missile hit civilian building" screams the BBC etc. Let's wait and see before wasting energy prematurely. Though I agree with you, it's a crime every time this happens. I don't buy "collateral damage". But unlike you, I see this just as bad when the Ukrainians do it as when the Russians do it.

[normal rules]

Hello our visiting fascist.

I left the Labour party in protest at Iraq, d**khead.

And in any case, nothing the mitary did in Iraq comes close to the things that Putin has done in Grozny, or Aleppo or the Donbas that you've slavered over.

Support this monster if that's who you are. Just don't ever try to convince anyone you are on the right side. You are a moral black hole. 

BST. I respect your views on here. Genuinely.
However, having served in Iraq, I can assure you Putin would have to go some way to usurp what the allied forces metered out in that part of the world.
Utter scorched earth policy. Superior firepower on a scale you have to see to believe. Every single square kilometre where Iraqi troops were seen wiped off the map. Precision strikes that would give Putin nightmares. Carpet bombing that would make Patrushev wet his bed at night. The likes of which I have never seen before and perhaps will never see again, thankfully.
I’m glad Putin does not have this sort of military capability as Ukraine would be a very very different place than it is right now. And I’m not belittling the death and destruction that is taking place currently because it’s awful. I just have to offer some experienced balance to this comment about Iraq. I am thankful, for the sakes of the people of Ukraine that Russian armies are no where near as technologically advanced or as strategically savvy as the likes of ours or the US.

[drfchound]

NR, good to hear information from someone who actually knows what happened in Iraq.

[BillyStubbsTears]

NR.

Thanks for your experience. And I can't imagine what you experienced. Were you stationed at Basrah?

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not criticising attacks on genuine military targets. I think the war that Putin has unleashed is an abomination, but once war is underway, attacks by military forces on each other are inevitable.

My much bigger issue is the deliberate or indiscriminate use of force on civillians. Putin's forces have raped and murdered civilians behind the front line around Kiev. They knowingly targeted the Mariupol theatre, killing 600 sheltering civilians. They are indiscriminately lobbing crude, badly guided missiles into civilian areas hundreds of miles from the front.

God knows I'm not saying Allied forces were blameless in Iraq. And I was against the war on principle from the start. But are you really saying that you personally saw deliberate or reckless targeting of civilians on the scale that we are seeing in Ukraine?

[wilts rover]

I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.

Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.

I also disagree with this and think AL should be able to choose whatever avatar he likes (within publi decency laws).

In fact I am glad he chose this one as it shows us exactly who he is and which political ideology he is aligned too.

Its the people who have exactly the same views as him, write the same Kremlin propoganda, and then claim to be neutral that frustrate me. At least AL is honest in his support.

[Bristol Red Rover]

NR.

Thanks for your experience. And I can't imagine what you experienced. Were you stationed at Basrah?

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not criticising attacks on genuine military targets. I think the war that Putin has unleashed is an abomination, but once war is underway, attacks by military forces on each other are inevitable.

My much bigger issue is the deliberate or indiscriminate use of force on civillians. Putin's forces have raped and murdered civilians behind the front line around Kiev. They knowingly targeted the Mariupol theatre, killing 600 sheltering civilians. They are indiscriminately lobbing crude, badly guided missiles into civilian areas hundreds of miles from the front.

God knows I'm not saying Allied forces were blameless in Iraq. And I was against the war on principle from the start. But are you really saying that you personally saw deliberate or reckless targeting of civilians on the scale that we are seeing in Ukraine?

Look, I agree putting civilians in danger is a bad thing. You ignore all the ways Ukraine does this. And then above you are using rhetoric again - ie exaggerating incidents and generalising to trigger emotions and smudge the facts with the aim of pushing one side of the story.

"Deliberate or reckless". Can you point to many examples of deliberate? Do you even know the full details behind the Mariupol Theatre incident?

"Putin's forces have raped and murdered civilians " there are questions around this. I expect it has happened to some extent. Again, you mention nothing of what Ukraines have done.

Yes, some of those missiles being used are not as accurate as others. "indisciminantly"? Mostly well targetted, and as I have said many times, if Ukraine is housing arms and weaponry in amongst civilians, it is surely responsible too.

As far as I can see, Russians are not using human shields, at least not nearly to the same extent as Ukraine. There is no excuse for that, not from either side.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I also disagree with this and think AL should be able to choose whatever avatar he likes (within publi decency laws).

In fact I am glad he chose this one as it shows us exactly who he is and which political ideology he is aligned too.

Its the people who have exactly the same views as him, write the same Kremlin propoganda, and then claim to be neutral that frustrate me. At least AL is honest in his support.

How come your avatar isn't half stars and stripes and half yellow and blue? 

[SydneyRover]

If all this was happening in the middle of an ocean or some mythical neutral territory, two foes deciding to fight it out, you may have a point with some of your argument BRR, but it's clearly not is it.

[danumdon]

Bristol Red Rover, can i just ask, will you still be posting this partisan support for The deranged Putin if and when he decides he needs to use tactual nuke's ?

[wilts rover]

I also disagree with this and think AL should be able to choose whatever avatar he likes (within publi decency laws).

In fact I am glad he chose this one as it shows us exactly who he is and which political ideology he is aligned too.

Its the people who have exactly the same views as him, write the same Kremlin propoganda, and then claim to be neutral that frustrate me. At least AL is honest in his support.

How come your avatar isn't half stars and stripes and half yellow and blue? 

If I thought it would do any good then I would change it. Half international brigade/half yellow & blue sounds good.

[drfchound]

I also disagree with this and think AL should be able to choose whatever avatar he likes (within publi decency laws).

In fact I am glad he chose this one as it shows us exactly who he is and which political ideology he is aligned too.

Its the people who have exactly the same views as him, write the same Kremlin propoganda, and then claim to be neutral that frustrate me. At least AL is honest in his support.

How come your avatar isn't half stars and stripes and half yellow and blue? 

If I thought it would do any good then I would change it. Half international brigade/half yellow & blue sounds good.

Go for it wilts.
It would be unique.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.
1) If you have credible evidence of Ukrainian soldiers raping and killing Russian civilians, post it instead of doing what you usually do - your Trump-esque thing of "A lot of people are saying both sides are doing it." For the record, I have seen evidence of Ukranian troops killing captured Russian prisoners. I did and do condemn that unreservedly. It's a war crime.

2) Amnesty International have today accused Russia of deliberately targeting the Mariupol theatre. That targeting was possible because they had air superiority. The theatre was hit with two separate 500kg air drop bombs, despite the sheltering civilians having written (I'm Russian) "CHILDREN"  outside in huge letters precisely to indicate that it should not be a target. If you have evidence that contradicts the Amnesty report, post it. And "evidence" doesn't mean "someone on Telegram said maybe..."

3) In areas where Russia does not have air superiority, they have routinely attacked with unguided or poorly guided rockets and missiles. Doing that in densely populated areas is a war crime.

4) Don't lecture me about the meaning of the word "indiscriminate" in this context without doing your homework.

This from the Human Rights Watch body, about the Geneva Convention's definition of the word.
"Under international humanitarian law, attacks that are not, or as a result of the method of attack cannot, be aimed at military targets, are considered "indiscriminate." They are prohibited under Protocol I and, under the same treaty, constitute war crimes."

By no means imaginable can a KH22 missile be orecisely aimed at a specific target in an urban area. Either in principle (because the 50 year old guidance technology was intended to get the missile to the general vicinity of a big target while carrying a thermonuclear warhead) or in practice, as we have seen this week. Launching that at a civilian area (even if, as you do, you believe the Russian propaganda that the intended target was military) and then killing civilians IS a war crime. It is the very definition of an indiscriminate attack under the Geneva Convention.

5) If you know of evidence that there are military targets being hidden in civilian areas, post it. If you don't, have some self respect and stop playing the Useful Idiot on this topic.

6) If you have evidence of Russian attacks deep into Ukraine being "mostly well targeted", post it. If not, have some self respect and stop playing the Useful Idiot.

[BobG]

I have pretty well withdrawn from this thread. I find myself dumbfounded by the sheer illogocality, willfull blindness, claptrap uttering, evidence lacking filth and wild generalisartions of certain right wingers on this thread. Yes Axholme. Amongst others, that's you.  Liberty has its limits - which is where I disagree with Wilts. Yes Axholme has shown the truly awful nature of his personality. But the poison he utters is on a par with preaching terrorism  - which this country has banned.  Go much further Axholme and I will report you to the responsible people. I do know them by the way,

BobG

[normal rules]

NR.

Thanks for your experience. And I can't imagine what you experienced. Were you stationed at Basrah?

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not criticising attacks on genuine military targets. I think the war that Putin has unleashed is an abomination, but once war is underway, attacks by military forces on each other are inevitable.

My much bigger issue is the deliberate or indiscriminate use of force on civillians. Putin's forces have raped and murdered civilians behind the front line around Kiev. They knowingly targeted the Mariupol theatre, killing 600 sheltering civilians. They are indiscriminately lobbing crude, badly guided missiles into civilian areas hundreds of miles from the front.

God knows I'm not saying Allied forces were blameless in Iraq. And I was against the war on principle from the start. But are you really saying that you personally saw deliberate or reckless targeting of civilians on the scale that we are seeing in Ukraine?

The recklessness of russias bombing is appalling. And no, this was not the case in Iraq. Civilians were killed though. In huge numbers. Tens of thousands. We still don’t know how many. The bombing was very deliberate. Widespread. Unforgiving levels of firepower. Dropping everything we had on every piece of southern Iraq.
As we advanced through Iraq, you could see everywhere that not a single living person survived anywhere where Iraqi troops have stood and attempted to fight back. Apocalyptic scenes.  Unlike these towns and cities in Ukraine where survivors are still going about their daily business to an extent. Don’t forget, allied bombing of southern Iraq took place for five weeks prior to us ground troops crossing the breach line in early feb. By the time we got to Basrah, it was all over. In fact it was all over way before then. The Iraqis had no chance.
I’m pretty confident Russia and it’s forces would be flattened under a similar NATO response. But let’s not go there shall we. Please.