Ukraine

[BillyStubbsTears]

The ignorance of history peddling itself as certainty in here sometimes...

[BobG]

Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of  Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by.  As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't  matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.

BobG

[Axholme Lion]

Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of  Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by.  As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't  matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.

BobG

Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?

[Sprotyrover]

Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of  Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by.  As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't  matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.

BobG

Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?

Axholme the largest Arms race in history preced the Great War and it raged for about 15 years prior..we did t build all of those Sper Dreadnoughts to have a Tea Dance off Heligoland!

[Axholme Lion]

Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of  Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by.  As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't  matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.

BobG

Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?

Axholme the largest Arms race in history preced the Great War and it raged for about 15 years prior..we did t build all of those Sper Dreadnoughts to have a Tea Dance off Heligoland!

As long as we have a huge military we don't need to get involved in the problems of others. We should look after ourselves. If we are strong no-one will mess with us. As for other nations they should solve their own problems. Close the curtains and don't get involved. If Boris hadn't played Mr Big we could have been buying oil and gas from Russia without paying through the nose.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of  Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by.  As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't  matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.

BobG

Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?

We "Got involved" with every German-French conflict for one simple self-interested reason.

It always was an still is very much not in our interests to have one potentially hostile power controlling Europe. If they do, we wouldn't be a match for them militarily when they turned on us. For centuries, our European policy was to side with the second/third strongest continental powers against the first in any conflict.

So in the Napoleonic Wars, we sided with Russia, Austro-Hungary and Prussia against the French.

In the Crimean War we sided with France and the Ottoman Empire against Russia.

In WWI, we sided with France and Russia against Germany.

Always the same plan - stop any single rival from getting too powerful.

Finally, after WWII, the leaders of France and Germany looked at their shattered countries and realised that they had to find a better way, rather than constantly warring. And that was the reason why the EEC/EU came into existence. To make it literally unthinkable that any West/Central European could ever again think it could do better by fighting its neighbours than it could be collaborating with them.

It has worked spectacularly well.

But anyone who imagines that you could set the countries of Europe back into competing aggressively against each other for national rights and markets, and not run the risk of Europe going up in flames again knows the square root of f**k all about history.

[Axholme Lion]

Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of  Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by.  As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't  matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.

BobG

Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?

We "Got involved" with every German-French conflict for one simple self-interested reason.

It always was an still is very much not in our interests to have one potentially hostile power controlling Europe. If they do, we wouldn't be a match for them militarily when they turned on us. For centuries, our European policy was to side with the second/third strongest continental powers against the first in any conflict.

So in the Napoleonic Wars, we sided with Russia, Austro-Hungary and Prussia against the French.

In the Crimean War we sided with France and the Ottoman Empire against Russia.

In WWI, we sided with France and Russia against Germany.

Always the same plan - stop any single rival from getting too powerful.

Finally, after WWII, the leaders of France and Germany looked at their shattered countries and realised that they had to find a better way, rather than constantly warring. And that was the reason why the EEC/EU came into existence. To make it literally unthinkable that any West/Central European could ever again think it could do better by fighting its neighbours than it could be collaborating with them.

It has worked spectacularly well.

But anyone who imagines that you could set the countries of Europe back into competing aggressively against each other for national rights and markets, and not run the risk of Europe going up in flames again knows the square root of f**k all about history.

If we made ourselves the strongest military power then we wouldn't need to be concerned about the others. A strong nation will get what it wants regardless of what others may think and say.

[wilts rover]

Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999

[Bristol Red Rover]

Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999

Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?

[Axholme Lion]

Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999

Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?

Don't you realise the 'democratic' west is a beacon of good and righteousness on the world? Only those nasty Russians do anything bad.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999

Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?

Don't you realise the 'democratic' west is a beacon of good and righteousness on the world? Only those nasty Russians do anything bad.

Goodies v Baddies. Oh for that childish simplicity and emotional security in life.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ahh yes. This is where the far right and far left meet. At the point where they agree that they have a genius insight: No-one is perfect so criticism of true evil isn't acceptable.

One would have given Hitler a pass. The other Mao and Stalin.

It's the logic that says "Bombing Dresden was wrong. Therefore we shouldn't have fought WWII."

Zero attempt to differentiate between levels of wrong. And convincing themselves that they are on a higher plane of intellectual understanding.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You CAN picture it can't you?

The week after D-Day.

AL spouting off about how it's nothing to do with us and we should keep out and let Hitler do what he wants.

BRR saying that America is provoking this, and we are responsible for shelling French towns.

[Bristol Red Rover]

You CAN picture it can't you?

The week after D-Day.

AL spouting off about how it's nothing to do with us and we should keep out and let Hitler do what he wants.

BRR saying that America is provoking this, and we are responsible for shelling French towns.

BST, you fail to see in the Umraine you have a right wing, nationalist nation set on marginalising half its population, ie being racist. Remind you of anyone? And in Russia you have a state which is the other side of the coin, the same coin, as the USA and Britain.

You seem to fall into the prescribed mode of "we're better than them". More fool you.

[BobG]

Earlier this week I was explaining to my son a simple premise that underlies political theor. It's not universally true, but it is true in a huge preponderance of cases. Parties of the left attract left wing voters. Parties of the right attract right wing voters. And parties that hover somewhere around the centre attract voters of both centre left and centre right. Histoprically, that is why many, many governments were fundamentally cerntrist in outlook. There are outliers of course but the premise has held true for upwards of a hundred years.

So, applying that logic to Axholme Lion and Bristol Red Rover, you can see the argumentative antipathy of the right wing zealot, the quasi intellectual dogmatism of the left wing zealot and the collective failure of extremists of both persuasions to influence anybody, win anything or contribute constructively. As for gaining respect, well, that is upto you.

BobG

[wilts rover]

Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999

Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?

Said the bloke trotting out Kremlin propoganda about 'human shields' and 'both sides'.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999

Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?

Said the bloke trotting out Kremlin propoganda about 'human shields' and 'both sides'.

Ah, so you don't believe in the use of human shields. More a Janet and John version of war that you're seeing?

[wilts rover]

Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999

Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?

Said the bloke trotting out Kremlin propoganda about 'human shields' and 'both sides'.

Ah, so you don't believe in the use of human shields. More a Janet and John version of war that you're seeing?

Its impossible to have a 'human shield' against an enemy that shoots civilians in the street, fires missles at civilian apartment blocks, shopping centres and schools and drops bombs on marked air raid shelters with children in them.

Some strange Kaffkaesque version of the war that only you and the Kremlin are seeing.

[wilts rover]

The War in the MSM and the strange search for 'General Pavel':

Remember people, always check your sources and what they are telling you - whoever they may be:

https://twitter.com/ArbiterOfTweets/status/1545651614253555712

[Bristol Red Rover]

Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999

Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?

Said the bloke trotting out Kremlin propoganda about 'human shields' and 'both sides'.

Ah, so you don't believe in the use of human shields. More a Janet and John version of war that you're seeing?

Its impossible to have a 'human shield' against an enemy that shoots civilians in the street, fires missles at civilian apartment blocks, shopping centres and schools and drops bombs on marked air raid shelters with children in them.

Some strange Kaffkaesque version of the war that only you and the Kremlin are seeing.

Are you saying Ukraines are stupid?

[wilts rover]

Death toll rises to 15 following Russian missile attack on residential apartments in Chasiv Yar yesterday.

'A Janet & John version of the war'

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1546089036300812288

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, as the longer range artillery moves up to the front on the Ukraine side, they've been picking off Russian ammo dumps in the Donbas. Russian military bloggers are not happy, to say the least. There's talk of serious supply issues.

[SydneyRover]

It's hard to see where a negotiated cease fire let alone peace will come from.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Death toll rises to 15 following Russian missile attack on residential apartments in Chasiv Yar yesterday.

'A Janet & John version of the war'

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1546089036300812288

Not seen you mentioning Ukraine shelling of civilians, including the deaths of children. That's the point.

[BobG]

No. It is emphatically not the point. The point is which side is bestial? Which side started this for personal and national geopolitical advantage? Which side gave treaty guarantees and has now broken them?

BobG

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's hard to see where a negotiated cease fire let alone peace will come from.

Ukraine has to be giving something. From what I can see, publicly anyway, they aren't giving any territory or change in their NATO and EU aims. Whilst they're losing this war, that's a non starter.

I can only assume Zelensky has something more concrete than "no surrender" coming down the line in order to give him a bargaining chip of value. Needs a lot of weapons and improved fighting abilities. How far will or can the US, and the rest of the NATO gang go?

[Bristol Red Rover]

No. It is emphatically not the point. The point is which side is bestial? Which side started this for personal and national geopolitical advantage? Which side gave treaty guarantees and has now broken them?

BobG

At least try to keep with the flow of conversation/discussion.

But to reply to your comment, you choose  your perspective, one that ignores a coup, non democracy, murdering of cililians who objected to this. And then ignores the global chess game - NATO/EU v Russia, and China for that matter. Like I say, a choice.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think what BRR is saying is similar to what many on the Russian-supporting Left say.

Because Russia defines its strategic interests as including large swathes of other sovereign nations, we are duty bound to accept that, and not complain when they move their heavy artillery in to destroy those areas.

It's an odd logic, but I'm sure it makes sense when you start from the assumption that NATO/EU are the real baddies.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST, still flogging your narrative of left ve right, extremes, and no doubt terrorists v police.

Very strange how you dismiss some history, then choose to include other aspects of the past, not least a constant harking back to Hitler.

And then, like some others on here, cherry picking your way through what I have said. Ah, well.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

You could save yourself some finger wear by not doing your usual drivel, and telling me which bits of what I said you disagree with, and why you think they are wrong.