Ukraine

[SydneyRover]

''Russia has banned investigative news outlet Bellingcat and its partner The Insider. Russia’s prosecutor general said their activities “posed a threat to... the security of the Russian federation.”

A statement said both organisations will be added to Russia’s “undesirable” list, which bans them from operating in Russia and makes cooperating with them illegal for Russian organisations and individuals.

Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins has questioned how it can be applied, given that it has no presence in Russia, tweeting “Bellingcat has been declared an undesirable organisation in Russia, along with our partners The Insider. Bellingcat has no legal, financial or staff presence, so it’s unclear how Russia expects to enforce this.”

He also posted a gif of Jim Carrey as film character the Mask accepting an award''

Guardian live

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, your occasional reminder of the hypocrite that is Jeremy Corbyn.

To the best of my knowledge, this from 3 months ago is the last time he commented publicly on Putin's War.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1518242386178097154

How exactly anyone was supposed to enforce a withdrawal of Russian troops is anyone's guess but it sounds nice doesn't it?

Since then, Russia has put the Donbas through the meat grinder, and regularly lobbed missiles into residential areas hundreds of miles from the front.

Not a peep from Corbyn, that saintly, indomitable opponent of aggression. I wonder why he has lost his voice?

[wilts rover]

Fascinating thread here:

Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633

[BillyStubbsTears]

This tipping point had been projected Wilts. I'm thinking this is now the most dangerous moment in the war. What does the thug in the Kremlin do if he starts to get forced back?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Meanwhile, your occasional reminder of the hypocrite that is Jeremy Corbyn.

To the best of my knowledge, this from 3 months ago is the last time he commented publicly on Putin's War.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1518242386178097154

How exactly anyone was supposed to enforce a withdrawal of Russian troops is anyone's guess but it sounds nice doesn't it?

Since then, Russia has put the Donbas through the meat grinder, and regularly lobbed missiles into residential areas hundreds of miles from the front.

Not a peep from Corbyn, that saintly, indomitable opponent of aggression. I wonder why he has lost his voice?

Still heard nowt of the BST plan, past or present.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Fascinating thread here:

Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633

How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.

[Bristol Red Rover]

This tipping point had been projected Wilts. I'm thinking this is now the most dangerous moment in the war. What does the thug in the Kremlin do if he starts to get forced back?

If. So far not nearly happening. The brash Zelensky statements about the southern offensive have come to nothing. HIMARS deffo were troubling, but seems they are being reduced.

How much more will the US/NATO invest in this? Also I heard US has reduced sanctions on certain Russian products. Tide turning?

[wilts rover]

Fascinating thread here:

Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633

How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.

No idea - I presume one of your sources will tell us?

I presume they will also tell us how many ammo dumps, command posts and other logistical targets Ukraine has hit.

[wilts rover]

Meanwhile, your occasional reminder of the hypocrite that is Jeremy Corbyn.

To the best of my knowledge, this from 3 months ago is the last time he commented publicly on Putin's War.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1518242386178097154

How exactly anyone was supposed to enforce a withdrawal of Russian troops is anyone's guess but it sounds nice doesn't it?

Since then, Russia has put the Donbas through the meat grinder, and regularly lobbed missiles into residential areas hundreds of miles from the front.

Not a peep from Corbyn, that saintly, indomitable opponent of aggression. I wonder why he has lost his voice?

He is at Tolpuddle today, if I knew you were interested I would have gone down to ask him. Or you could have gone yourself, he is always happy to chat to people. I presume he was at Durham last week - you could have gone there.

Tho I don't know what you expect him to say that he hasn't already said? He has condemned Putin for the invasion and atrocities commited during it and said there needs to be a negotiated solution to end it.

Which is what most people here want (other than the ones who want us to be directly involved - not gonna happen - or the one poster who wants Putin to win), you, me, BRR, Dutch, Bob etc, thats what we - and Corbyn - all want.

There are only two possible ends to the war and both revolve around what Putin will decide to do, he defeats Ukraine on the battlefield and wipes the country off the map - or there is a negotiated peace. The only differences are how and when this peace should happen - now and give Putin something to make him stop - or when Zelensky forces him to stop.

There is absolutely nothing Jeremy Corbyn or anyone else can say to make that any different.

[Janso]

Well, there is a third way it ends...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts
Don't you find it at all bemusing that a man who falls over himself to point out any military action that can be attributed to Western influence or i threats has said precisely nothing about Russia lobbing 1000kg anti-ship warheads into residential areas hundreds of miles from war fronts?

I know that you are appalled and disgusted by those attacks, as I am.

Why isn't Corbyn?

Do you think he'd have stayed silent if Britain or America or Israel had done that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd have rightly been outraged.

But Putin does it and there's not a squeak.

And of course that fits a pattern.  He refused ever to directly criticise Putin's obliteration of Aleppo, or his facilitating the gassing of Doumas. His instinct was not even to criticise Russia over the Salisbury attack until even he realised that stance wasn't politically credible.

But then maybe it's not so odd when the Putin apologist that Corbyn himself hired as his Press Secretary is on record as saying that we shouldn't bring attention to Russian war crimes because they divert attention from those of the West.

I'll tell you what I think. The hypocrisy disgusts me.

[drfchound]

Wilts
Don't you find it at all bemusing that a man who falls over himself to point out any military action that can be attributed to Western influence or i threats has said precisely nothing about Russia lobbing 1000kg anti-ship warheads into residential areas hundreds of miles from war fronts?

I know that you are appalled and disgusted by those attacks, as I am.

Why isn't Corbyn?

Do you think he'd have stayed silent if Britain or America or Israel had done that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd have rightly been outraged.

But Putin does it and there's not a squeak.

And of course that fits a pattern.  He refused ever to directly criticise Putin's obliteration of Aleppo, or his facilitating the gassing of Doumas. His instinct was not even to criticise Russia over the Salisbury attack until even he realised that stance wasn't politically credible.

But then maybe it's not so odd when the Putin apologist that Corbyn himself hired as his Press Secretary is on record as saying that we shouldn't bring attention to Russian war crimes because they divert attention from those of the West.

I'll tell you what I think. The hypocrisy disgusts me.

Hypocrisy, ha ha.
Russia obliterated Aleppo in 2016, the gassing was in 2018 as was the Salisbury terrorist attack.
You still supported Corbyn through two GEs despite being disgusted at his non condemnation of these events.

[wilts rover]

Wilts
Don't you find it at all bemusing that a man who falls over himself to point out any military action that can be attributed to Western influence or i threats has said precisely nothing about Russia lobbing 1000kg anti-ship warheads into residential areas hundreds of miles from war fronts?

I know that you are appalled and disgusted by those attacks, as I am.

Why isn't Corbyn?

Do you think he'd have stayed silent if Britain or America or Israel had done that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd have rightly been outraged.

But Putin does it and there's not a squeak.

And of course that fits a pattern.  He refused ever to directly criticise Putin's obliteration of Aleppo, or his facilitating the gassing of Doumas. His instinct was not even to criticise Russia over the Salisbury attack until even he realised that stance wasn't politically credible.

But then maybe it's not so odd when the Putin apologist that Corbyn himself hired as his Press Secretary is on record as saying that we shouldn't bring attention to Russian war crimes because they divert attention from those of the West.

I'll tell you what I think. The hypocrisy disgusts me.

Hypocrisy, ha ha.
Russia obliterated Aleppo in 2016, the gassing was in 2918 as was the Salisbury terrorist attack.
You still supported Corbyn through two GEs despite being disgusted at his non condemnation of these events.

And other people voted for Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson despite his party taking £millions in donations from Russian sources connected to Putin and he himself going to a party hosted by a known KGB agent (they are never ex-agents) and judged a security rik by MI5 less than a month after Salisbury.

[drfchound]

Wilts
Don't you find it at all bemusing that a man who falls over himself to point out any military action that can be attributed to Western influence or i threats has said precisely nothing about Russia lobbing 1000kg anti-ship warheads into residential areas hundreds of miles from war fronts?

I know that you are appalled and disgusted by those attacks, as I am.

Why isn't Corbyn?

Do you think he'd have stayed silent if Britain or America or Israel had done that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd have rightly been outraged.

But Putin does it and there's not a squeak.

And of course that fits a pattern.  He refused ever to directly criticise Putin's obliteration of Aleppo, or his facilitating the gassing of Doumas. His instinct was not even to criticise Russia over the Salisbury attack until even he realised that stance wasn't politically credible.

But then maybe it's not so odd when the Putin apologist that Corbyn himself hired as his Press Secretary is on record as saying that we shouldn't bring attention to Russian war crimes because they divert attention from those of the West.

I'll tell you what I think. The hypocrisy disgusts me.

Hypocrisy, ha ha.
Russia obliterated Aleppo in 2016, the gassing was in 2918 as was the Salisbury terrorist attack.
You still supported Corbyn through two GEs despite being disgusted at his non condemnation of these events.

And other people voted for Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson despite his party taking £millions in donations from Russian sources connected to Putin and he himself going to a party hosted by a known KGB agent (they are never ex-agents) and judged a security rik by MI5 less than a month after Salisbury.

Yes wilts, some people did.
But I didn’t.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Fascinating thread here:

Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633

How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.

No idea - I presume one of your sources will tell us?

I presume they will also tell us how many ammo dumps, command posts and other logistical targets Ukraine has hit.

Reports of HIMARS getting destroyed. US not got an endless fundiung for them.

The most solid evidence would be in the continued Russian advances. I'm not hearing of any reduction overall in shelling.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.

"Reports" from where?

And of course you won't hear of any reduction in shelling if you get your info from Russian MoD Telegram accounts.

[wilts rover]

Fascinating thread here:

Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633

How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.

No idea - I presume one of your sources will tell us?

I presume they will also tell us how many ammo dumps, command posts and other logistical targets Ukraine has hit.

Reports of HIMARS getting destroyed. US not got an endless fundiung for them.

The most solid evidence would be in the continued Russian advances. I'm not hearing of any reduction overall in shelling.

Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!

[i_ateallthepies]

Fascinating thread here:

Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633

How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.

No idea - I presume one of your sources will tell us?

I presume they will also tell us how many ammo dumps, command posts and other logistical targets Ukraine has hit.

Reports of HIMARS getting destroyed. US not got an endless fundiung for them.

The most solid evidence would be in the continued Russian advances. I'm not hearing I will not hear of any reduction overall in shelling.

There you go, BRR.  Corrected for you.

[Not Now Kato]

BRR and AL's handlers won't tell them, but....
 
Response to Moscow Mechanism Report on Ukraine
As delivered by Ambassador Michael Carpenter to the Permanent Council, Vienna

Professors Bilkova, Guercio, and Sancin: welcome to the Permanent Council and thank you for presenting us with your comprehensive experts’ report. We appreciate the amount of work that has gone into your mission and how laborious and sobering it must have been to collect all the facts reflected in the report. But these facts matter – to us, to the victims of Russia’s brutalities, and to the world.

Russia’s attacks on Ukraine continue, and I must point this out, even as this council deliberates. As we were meeting this morning Russian missiles struck the town of Vinnytsia and killed at least 20 people, including three children. Many of you have probably seen the images on Social Media: a children’s carriage, on its side, the body underneath. It is disgusting, but sadly, it’s become a reality that we contend with each and every day in this Council.

That’s why today’s efforts at accountability are so important. Today’s Moscow Mechanism report gives us an opportunity to pull back and document the unconscionable atrocity crimes, human rights violations, and abuses members of Russia’s forces have committed since Russia launched its brutal full-scale invasion in February of this year in an attempt to seize additional territory from Ukraine. Today’s report covers the period from April 1 to June 25, so it necessarily gives us only a limited window into the depravities of Russia’s war. But even so, it clearly states that “the magnitude and frequency of the indiscriminate attacks carried out against civilians and civilian objects, including sites where no military facility was identified, is credible evidence that hostilities were conducted by Russian armed forces disregarding their fundamental obligation to comply with the basic principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution that constitute the fundamental basis of International Humanitarian Law” (p. 3).

The report states that “The events concerning the towns of Bucha and Irpin, that were visited by the mission, are two emblematic examples of the breaches of International Humanitarian Law under the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, which constitute war crimes” (p. 3). Moreover, the report states that “some patterns of violent acts violating International Human Rights Law, which have been repeatedly documented during the conflict, such as targeted killing, enforced disappearance or abduction of civilians,” meet the qualification of a “widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population.” As the report notes, “any single violent act of this type, committed as part of such an attack and with the knowledge of it, constitutes a crime against humanity” (p. 4).

Mr. Chair, the perpetration of atrocities by one of the participating States in this Council is an affront to this entire organization and every single principle it represents. The paid apologists of the regime that commits these horrors would have us believe that the people of Ukraine are doing this to themselves. But we have facts, and not just facts but evidence, on our side.

Let us examine some of the details. The experts noted that photographic and video evidence appears to show “that Russian forces carried out targeted, organized killings of civilians in Bucha” who were “frequently found shot dead, hands tied behind their backs” (p. 38). They also cite the Kyiv regional police force, which reported that 900 civilian bodies had been discovered in the Kyiv region after the withdrawal of Russian forces (p. 38). According to the police, nearly 95 percent were “simply executed” (p. 38). If that were not abhorrent enough, allow me to quote at length this passage from the report on Russia’s makeshift torture chambers to give you a sense of what the victims of these crimes went through:

“A series of torture chambers separated by concrete walls were discovered in a summer camp in Bucha. At the front, there was a room that appeared to be used for executions, with bullet holes in the walls. The following room contained two chairs, an empty jug, and a wooden plank. The Russians had brought in two metal bedsprings and leaned them against the wall in another. The tableaus suggested to Ukrainian investigators that prisoners were tortured here: tied to the bedsprings and interrogated; strapped to the plank and waterboarded. In that chamber, five dead men dressed in civilian clothes were discovered. They were covered with burns, bruises, and lacerations. Also, in Zabuchchya, a village in the Bucha district, 18 mutilated bodies of murdered men, women, and children were discovered in a basement: some had their ears cut off, while others had their teeth pulled out” (p. 38-9).

Colleagues, this report was harrowing to read. The scale of Russia’s atrocities is vast. For example, the mission cited “abundant” reports of women and girls being raped and sexually abused by Russia’s armed forces (p. 90). The report mentions the case of 23-year-old Karina Yershova in Bucha who was abducted, raped, tortured, and finally shot dead by Russian troops. The report also highlights a report by Commissioner for Human Rights Denisova that 25 girls aged 14 to 24 were kept in a basement in Bucha and gang-raped by Russian troops, resulting in nine becoming pregnant (p. 91). The report also states that a one-year-old boy was sexually abused and a 78-year-old woman was raped by Russian troops (p. 94).

The report documented that Russian troops in Bucha engaged in “systemic” looting “from the displaced, deceased, and those still in the city” (p. 29). Many of the items were then marketed by Russian troops at bazaars set up in Belarus to sell the looted goods: “Washing machines, dishwashers, refrigerators, jewelry, automobiles, bicycles, motorcycles, dishes, carpets, works of art, children’s toys, and cosmetics are examples of such items” (p. 29).

The report underscores that mass forcible transfers of civilians from occupied territory to the territory of the occupying power are prohibited under the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the practice is considered a war crime (p. 31). Yet despite this clear prohibition, the report notes that more than 1.3 million Ukrainian civilians are reported to have been deported against their will to Russia, including more than 200,000 children (p. 72). The report cites the Mariupol mayor’s description of how these deportations are carried out: “At night, a man with a gun entered the shelter, claiming it was an evacuation. People who had been in the shelter for about 20 days were let out, put in cars, and driven somewhere, only to realize they had been taken somewhere out of Ukraine. They were then loaded onto trains and transported to the Russian Federation’s hinterland” (p. 30).

The report provides evidence that tens of thousands of civilians are being detained at “filtration centers” and then transported to detention places in Russia or the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics. Many of them are then held incommunicado, have no contact with their families, and are subject to various forms of mistreatment. The mission notes that these centers, such as the Bezimenne center in Donetsk region, serve to “filter, on unclear grounds, individuals seeking to leave besieged cities or other dangerous areas” and that the filtration process involves “harsh interrogation and humiliating body inspection.” Those who pass through the filtration are “often transferred, with their consent or without it, to Russian territory” (p. 108). The experts note that they have “no doubts that such practices violate international human rights law and may amount to a crime against humanity or a war crime” (p. 30, 72). The mission in fact documents “a relatively consistent pattern of behavior on the side of the Russian Federation, when the military occupation of a certain area is followed by abductions, interrogations, mistreatment and sometimes killings of important public figures, such as mayors or local journalists.” (p. 71-2)

Russia is not only waging war on its neighbor but reportedly forcing some Ukrainian citizens to fight against their own country. The mission reported conscription was imposed on all local men between the age of 18 and 65 in areas under Russian control in the Donbas as well as of the oblasts of Kharkiv, Kherson, and Sumy. Residents report that men with no military experience are regularly “plucked from the streets and immediately sent to the front” (p. 31). The mission also reported the use of non-combatants, including children, as human shields, contrary to international humanitarian law. For example, Russia’s soldiers reportedly used over 300 Ukrainian civilians as human shields and held them captive for 25 days in March in the basement of Yahidne School, where a major Russian military camp was located (p. 40).

The report notes that the Ukrainian Defense Ministry accused Russia’s forces of stealing “hundreds of thousands of tons of grain” from storage facilities in temporarily occupied parts of Ukraine and transported it to Russia (p. 29). The experts found that these acts “amount to violations of [international humanitarian law] and [international human rights law] and must be properly investigated” (p. 82). The UN World Food Program has warned grain theft could exacerbate global hunger (p. 29) and has called for the immediate opening of the Black Sea ports to allow critical food from Ukraine reaching people facing food insecurity in other countries where millions are on the brink (p. 55). Vulnerable populations across the world will suffer as a result of Russia’s abuses in Ukraine.

Children have of course been killed as well, as we have documented in this Council previously. Per the report, “in Bucha alone, 31 children under the age of 18 were killed and 19 wounded, according to local authorities” (p. 93). The report cites the region’s chief prosecutor saying that “all children were killed or injured deliberately, since Russia’s soldiers deliberately shot at evacuating cars that had the signs CHILDREN and white fabric tied to them, and they deliberately shot at the homes of civilians” (p. 93). Some children witnessed executions of their parents, relatives and friends, with impacts that will last for generations (p. 93). And on top of this the mission relayed reports that “approximately 2,000 children from various orphanages and children’s institutions” have been “purportedly transferred to Russia, even though they have living relatives and were in the institutions only for medical care” (p. 95).

The report also elaborates on the weapons Russia has used and how they have been employed, noting that “the Russian invasion has resulted in unnecessary and disproportionate harm to civilians due to the Russian military carrying out both deliberate attacks against civilian targets and indiscriminate attacks in densely populated areas in manifest disregard of the principle of distinction.” The report also notes that Russia’s forces have employed cluster munitions and used explosive weapons such as air-dropped bombs, missiles, heavy artillery shells, and multiple launch rockets in populated areas (p. 58).
 
https://osce.usmission.gov/response-to-moscow-mechanism-report-on-ukraine/

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.

"Reports" from where?

And of course you won't hear of any reduction in shelling if you get your info from Russian MoD Telegram accounts.

Sadly Zelensky is still crying too much to make his latest macho vid announcing the destruction of his US weapons and his call to arms of Ukraine women to add their bodies to the piles of men. Der.... of course western sources won't be saying it! I said there were reports, and in this war it's v difficult to confirm much, well not uness you buy western or Russian propaganda. Are you sure they are still all in operation?

The shelling - if it's less then why is Russia advancing. Despite Wilt's mate saying how there is little/no change in the front line, Russia appears to be in Siversk now. The western maps update very slowly, often several days behind. The evidence in that is following various sources and seeing the slow catch up.

Are the HIMARS causing problems? Of course they are. They probably have hit several key targets, and no doubt ammo dumps are part of that. Is Russia hunting down the HIMARS? Of course it is. The US sent 8, promised 4 more. Will that be enough? 12 weapons? How many missiles? Well we'll see.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!

As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.

Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.

[Bristol Red Rover]

NNK - sure, if proven, and some of this is, it is terrible. I assume you noticed how there wasn't anything pointing to Ukraine attrocities?

[Not Now Kato]

NNK - sure, if proven, and some of this is, it is terrible. I assume you noticed how there wasn't anything pointing to Ukraine attrocities?

Of course I noticed. The report was specifically called for in light of the atrocities being carried out by Russian troops.
 
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/vienna-international-organisations/moscow-mechanism-invoked-45-osce-participating_en?s=66
 
The report could have, of course, found no evidence of such atrocities; it didn’t, which should tell you something. The link I included in my earlier post was to the full report. It makes for very grim reading.
 
However, I’m sure that any similar transgressions by Ukrainian troops will emerge fully in due course, though I doubt very much they will be of the same scale and nature as those highlighted in that report.

[Axholme Lion]

NNK - sure, if proven, and some of this is, it is terrible. I assume you noticed how there wasn't anything pointing to Ukraine attrocities?

Of course I noticed. The report was specifically called for in light of the atrocities being carried out by Russian troops.
 
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/vienna-international-organisations/moscow-mechanism-invoked-45-osce-participating_en?s=66
 
The report could have, of course, found no evidence of such atrocities; it didn’t, which should tell you something. The link I included in my earlier post was to the full report. It makes for very grim reading.
 
However, I’m sure that any similar transgressions by Ukrainian troops will emerge fully in due course, though I doubt very much they will be of the same scale and nature as those highlighted in that report.

I doubt it. You don't hear much about allied 'war crimes' in WW2 and afterwards but they must have happened. The victors write the history books...

[SydneyRover]

NNK - sure, if proven, and some of this is, it is terrible. I assume you noticed how there wasn't anything pointing to Ukraine attrocities?

Of course I noticed. The report was specifically called for in light of the atrocities being carried out by Russian troops.
 
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/vienna-international-organisations/moscow-mechanism-invoked-45-osce-participating_en?s=66
 
The report could have, of course, found no evidence of such atrocities; it didn’t, which should tell you something. The link I included in my earlier post was to the full report. It makes for very grim reading.
 
However, I’m sure that any similar transgressions by Ukrainian troops will emerge fully in due course, though I doubt very much they will be of the same scale and nature as those highlighted in that report.

I doubt it. You don't hear much about allied 'war crimes' in WW2 and afterwards but they must have happened. The victors write the history books...

You're BRR's neighbour and I demand my ₤5

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.

"Reports" from where?

And of course you won't hear of any reduction in shelling if you get your info from Russian MoD Telegram accounts.

Sadly Zelensky is still crying too much to make his latest macho vid announcing the destruction of his US weapons and his call to arms of Ukraine women to add their bodies to the piles of men. Der.... of course western sources won't be saying it! I said there were reports, and in this war it's v difficult to confirm much, well not uness you buy western or Russian propaganda. Are you sure they are still all in operation?

The shelling - if it's less then why is Russia advancing. Despite Wilt's mate saying how there is little/no change in the front line, Russia appears to be in Siversk now. The western maps update very slowly, often several days behind. The evidence in that is following various sources and seeing the slow catch up.

Are the HIMARS causing problems? Of course they are. They probably have hit several key targets, and no doubt ammo dumps are part of that. Is Russia hunting down the HIMARS? Of course it is. The US sent 8, promised 4 more. Will that be enough? 12 weapons? How many missiles? Well we'll see.

So. Reports from where?

[wilts rover]

Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!

As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.

Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.

This is a war against an imperialist fascist dictator who has invaded a neighbouring smaller country intent on wiping it off the map.

Full stop.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!

As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.

Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.

This is a war against an imperialist fascist dictator who has invaded a neighbouring smaller country intent on wiping it off the map.

Full stop.

Is it your need to wave the flag, get into an us v them, solace in the security your masters are giving you? Coz you know that's all BS. Or just not being capable of seeing the well evidenced bigger picture and history? And that is surprising as it's clear as day... though not in what you are choosing to read.

It was orchestrated by both sides in different ways. The US has been aiming for this scenario for decades. Russia has been waiting for the chance to take Ukraine, and was handed the opportunity.

The US/NATO thought, and still thinks, it would be able to weaken Russia, possibly to the point of collapse, or maybe instill one if it's usual catastrophic regime changes - which it did do in Ukraine. Russia thought otherwise, and took up the challange.

The support for this from the US, and ther NATO countries, public is steadily decreasing. Russia may weaken, or maybe will switch to a more full on war footing, who knows. From the evidence on the ground, ie the Russian advances, it's fairly clear Putin is in control. Zelensky is playing his role well, he is an actor, and squeezing all possible out of what is available to him. How long can he keep doing this, how long will the Western Ukraines support him? A trip to the east to be left unsupported by weapons, and to be maimed or killed isn't looking good on the scales of choices. No one wants to be cannon fodder for the elite thugs in control.

Meanwhile, both sides are responsible for the death of Ukrainians - something neither sides are bothered about as is seen in their histories.

Yet you persist in dealing out the #billyblinkers line.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.

"Reports" from where?

And of course you won't hear of any reduction in shelling if you get your info from Russian MoD Telegram accounts.

Sadly Zelensky is still crying too much to make his latest macho vid announcing the destruction of his US weapons and his call to arms of Ukraine women to add their bodies to the piles of men. Der.... of course western sources won't be saying it! I said there were reports, and in this war it's v difficult to confirm much, well not uness you buy western or Russian propaganda. Are you sure they are still all in operation?

The shelling - if it's less then why is Russia advancing. Despite Wilt's mate saying how there is little/no change in the front line, Russia appears to be in Siversk now. The western maps update very slowly, often several days behind. The evidence in that is following various sources and seeing the slow catch up.

Are the HIMARS causing problems? Of course they are. They probably have hit several key targets, and no doubt ammo dumps are part of that. Is Russia hunting down the HIMARS? Of course it is. The US sent 8, promised 4 more. Will that be enough? 12 weapons? How many missiles? Well we'll see.

So. Reports from where?

Make an effort mate. What do you think is happening?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

It's really simple.

You vehemently said you'd seen reports that X was happening.

I asked you where those reports were.

You went off like a Claymore on a uncoordinated rant about anything but reports.

I asked you where the reports were.

You tell me I'm not keeping up.

I knew there was a reason why I took a decision 35 years back to not discuss topics with the Far Left/Right.