Ukraine

[wilts rover]

Meanwhile Iran supplies sophisticated drones to Russia because Russia is allegedly running out of its own dated missiles.

As Western sanctions hit & hurt both regimes pragmatism has made them ‘uncomfortable bedfellows’.

Their growing ‘alliance’ should be a concern to all western countries.

Thank goodness we have our finger on the pulse on world events at this moment in time!

Someone once said ' the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
Possibly an ancient Chinese General or possibly one of the Kardashians.

What do you call assassins who accuse assassins anyway? My friend?

[Colin C No.3]

Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?

I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!

In my opinion they should be charged with Treason

Why? Are we at war with China?

Abso bloody lutely!

Not in ‘a war’ militarily but in every other means we are & should be to the very best of our ability.

[BobG]

Seconded Colin!

BobG

[Axholme Lion]

Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?

I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!

In my opinion they should be charged with Treason

Why? Are we at war with China?

Abso bloody lutely!

Not in ‘a war’ militarily but in every other means we are & should be to the very best of our ability.

It doesn't seem to stop the shops being full of their wares does it?

[Bristol Red Rover]

I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.

[danumdon]

I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.

Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped  and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.

Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.

It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.

Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped  and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.

Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.

It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.

Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?

[Bristol Red Rover]

There will be a peace conference and national borders will be agreed and ratified by both sides.

Where those borders will be will no likely depend on where the respective armies are at the time. Who will be leading the Russian side is debatable because Putin doesn't want peace - he wants to destroy Ukraine.

No, Russia wants to destroy the Ukraine military capability, plus push back borders to where it feels safe, which is potentially as far as Poland and Hungary, although quite possibly further east would be easier to fully assimilate given the greater anti Russian feelings the further west you go. NATO's position of accepting Ukraine means the border is ever pushed West, though only max to Poland and Hungary.

There is no doubt whatsoever that the NATO moves to include Ukraine are responsible for all this, and to go further back, the loose agreement of NATO being restricted to East Germany at the point of German reunification which came before the dissolution of the Soviet Union should have been made more definite. That is the fault of Gorbachev and the chaotic Soviet Union as was. That this didn't include the Warsaw Pact countries was slack to the extreme, though was implicitly in the spirit of what was agreed. I understand NATO walking over this, but that they did, and that is undoubtedly agressive despite the Orwellian "we're just a defensive organisation" mantra.

Whether or not you agree with the facts above as being relevant within the parameters of causality in the war, it is how the Russians see it. Therefore, without any Ukraine military victory, and realistically that ain't gonna happen without NATO countries risking amrmageddon, any peace agreement would be something that Russia can feel safe about.

Sorry but again I am going to take great exception to the point highlighted for the same reason I have given before. Please again do not mistake the NATO Organisation headed by Stoltenberg with all the NATO Member nations with their often diverging agendas.

NATO the organisation is absolutely a Defensive Alliance by charter and reality. Some NATO nations are often held back in their more aggressive intentions by the requirement of a unanimous vote for NATO to act, and those nations often act unilaterally, or within an ad-hoc 'coalition of the willing'.

To suggest otherwise is to insult some very fine NATO leaders, including the great Manfred Woerner and also George Robertson who typified the real NATO when he said: 

In September 2022, during the 7th month of the Ukraine War, interviewed by Channel 4 about his nine meetings with Vladimir Putin, Robertson said, "At the first meeting (in Moscow) Vladimir Putin clearly said, 'I WANT RUSSIA TO BE PART OF WESTERN EUROPE...at the 2nd meeting (in Brussels) he said..'WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO INVITE RUSSIA TO JOIN NATO?'...I started to sort of reach out and engage them in so many activities that they basically couldn't fight with us.. but after I left NATO (in Dec 2003), the American administration, the Bush administration (during their own illegal war on Iraq opposed by Putin), lost any interest basically in doing business with Russia, they saw it as a threat..they didn't really want to make it part of the overall partnership. I think we missed an opportunity at that time because I think it's what he (Putin) wanted, and we could have grabbed hold of him!"   

May I ask you to direct your criticism at the appropriate targets.

Edit: For clarification, it may just be careless use of terminology on your part, so if you were to say 'some in the west are not entirely defensive then I would not disagree (see Robertson above). But please do not tar the NATO organisation itself with the same brush.

Hi Dutch, sorry slow replying to this. We agree about the ad hoc actions of the willing as you put it. That is undoubtedly partly facilitated by there being a NATO and as such I think it naiive and foolish to see NATO itself as being wholey separate to that function. Tho I don't think you're disagreeing there, just on the specific reference to NATO itself, whithin its bounds as separate to those nations making t up.

My problem with seeing NATO itself as kind of benign, is that in no understanding of the real world can that be considered realistic. Even as a grouping around which those ad hoc combatents gather, it is partly engaged as a function if not as a legal construct.

The big issue in this instance is NATO inviting Ukraine into its fold. I realise NATO has a kind of open door policy, but taking exactly that "kind of" then it was inevitable that Russia would react to the Ukraine potential. NATO should have made it clear that their inclusion would not be in the name of peace for the world. Anyone could see that. So the question there is why they didn't make that statement. Of course it is because of US, and UK, policy. ie NATO functions even on its legalistic "neutral" form as part of the agressive, hawkish, members. It is ultimately directed by them.

[Not Now Kato]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

[Colin C No.3]

I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.

Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped  and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.

Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.

It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.

Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?

Peace and Love.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

The UN investigation into human rights abuses in the war makes deeply upsetting reading.

Dozens of cases of Russian forces committing rape (including of children as young as 4), torture and execution.

They found 2 examples of Ukraine forces mistreating Russian soldiers.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1127691

[Axholme Lion]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

The UN investigation into human rights abuses in the war makes deeply upsetting reading.

Dozens of cases of Russian forces committing rape (including of children as young as 4), torture and execution.

They found 2 examples of Ukraine forces mistreating Russian soldiers.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1127691

What a surpise. It's surprising that you don't find anything if you have no intention of looking for it. More MSM bullshit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hello to our resident fascist.

That's the UN's own investigation. What the f**k the MSM has to do with it, Lord knows. In sure your outburst makes sense to you.

Fascist.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.

Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped  and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.

Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.

It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.

Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?

Peace and Love.

Like in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq for example?

I realise you are taking the piss, but that just seems to show you don't really see UK policy as anything but the opposite of peace and love.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

The UN investigation into human rights abuses in the war makes deeply upsetting reading.

Dozens of cases of Russian forces committing rape (including of children as young as 4), torture and execution.

They found 2 examples of Ukraine forces mistreating Russian soldiers.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1127691

I note you don't apply those same standards of being held up for wrong doings when it comes to the establishment machinery investigating the Tories.

[Not Now Kato]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.

So you're suggesting it didn't happen then?  Really?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Hello to our resident fascist.

That's the UN's own investigation. What the f**k the MSM has to do with it, Lord knows. In sure your outburst makes sense to you.

Fascist.

This sounds like Sunak in PMQs deflecting with the insults. And then unlike Sunak, you believe what you are saying.

The UN investigation.... not at all influenced by any of its sponsoring members, nor by not having looked at the shelling of Donetsk with petal mines. That's a total farce of an inquiry, as are many if not most inquiries in this "free" world.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.

So you're suggesting it didn't happen then?  Really?

I'm sure various crimes happened, and I'm sure Ukraine manufactured many too. I'm also pointing out that to believe Ukraine is some relatively innocent party here is naiive. War creates lies, endless levels of propaganda, the thickest "fog", and also allows thugs to run riot - which happens with every military on earth. Sure, some peoples are more likely to play dirty than others, but if you're thinking Ukraine is any better than Russia on that score you haven't read or researched enough.

Meanwhile, like I said, that article is 100% one sided. That kills its credibility.

[glosterred]

I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.

Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped  and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.

Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.

It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.

Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?

Peace and Love.

Like in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq for example?

I realise you are taking the piss, but that just seems to show you don't really see UK policy as anything but the opposite of peace and love.

All Russia wants is peace and love just like, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan and Syria

[glosterred]

I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.

Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped  and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.

Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.

It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.

Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?

Peace and Love.

Like in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq for example?

I realise you are taking the piss, but that just seems to show you don't really see UK policy as anything but the opposite of peace and love.

All Russia wants is peace and love just like, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan and Syria

Oh and Ukraine

[BillyStubbsTears]

Let's have a think.

Who to believe? Who to believe?

The office of the Under Secretary of the UN?

Or AL and BRR's Telegram mates posting lines from the Russian MoD?

So hard being a grown up int it? All these really hard choices.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.

Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped  and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.

Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.

It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.

Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?

Peace and Love.

Like in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq for example?

I realise you are taking the piss, but that just seems to show you don't really see UK policy as anything but the opposite of peace and love.

All Russia wants is peace and love just like, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan and Syria

I was asking about the UK. Have you got a response to that?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Let's have a think.

Who to believe? Who to believe?

The office of the Under Secretary of the UN?

Or AL and BRR's Telegram mates posting lines from the Russian MoD?

So hard being a grown up int it? All these really hard choices.

Believe your mates down the pub, or Chumley Chum-Chumley who writes your newspapers, runs the police, owns the banks, sets your education system, runs your government, IS your government. We know where BST stands, or lies.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyone?

No, me neither.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Your response to what the UK's international aim is?

Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?

[wilts rover]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.

It's a bit like someone posting on here and only criticising Ukraine whilst excusing documented Russian atrociities - how do they expect to have any credibility?

Oh!

[wilts rover]

Your response to what the UK's international aim is?

Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?

An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.

https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb

What are the Russian aims?

[Bristol Red Rover]

I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
 
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/

If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.

It's a bit like someone posting on here and only criticising Ukraine whilst excusing documented Russian atrociities - how do they expect to have any credibility?

Oh!

Good, so you agree it lacks credibility.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Your response to what the UK's international aim is?

Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?

An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.

https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb

What are the Russian aims?

I said realistic, because we know that isn't an option in the terms you relate to.

There is a slight possibility Russia would go as far as Crimea and Donbas with an agreement of Ukraine not joining NATO. Though most likely that would also include those territories Russia now considers as Russian Federaton.

However, as it stands, NATO won't exclude Ukraine - mainly as the US currently says so.

So what your preferred option is, in the real world, is for fighting to continue costing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Nice.