Ukraine

[BillyStubbsTears]

Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.

How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.

How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.

How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.

The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.

Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?

Go on then. Explain to me why you would have supported Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland, rather than telling them to suck it up because people would get killed if they resist.

This is about Ukraine. What is your idea for a solution there?

You're doing an excellent job of showing your ignorance of history. There aren't many historians who think giving in to Hitler over the Sudetenland wasn't a catastrophic error. Because imperial dictators don't say "Thanks very much, I'll stop now" when you show weakness to them. If you really can't see the lesson there for the current conflict, no amount of me spelling it out is going to help you.

And of course you miss the real moral issue here. When an independent country has been invaded by a brutal dictatorship, it isn't for someone living in comfort far away to tell them to stop fighting and give in to what the dictator wants. It is for them to decide. And for everyone else in the world to choose which side they are on.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.

How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.

How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.

How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.

The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.

Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?

Go on then. Explain to me why you would have supported Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland, rather than telling them to suck it up because people would get killed if they resist.

This is about Ukraine. What is your idea for a solution there?

You're doing an excellent job of showing your ignorance of history. There aren't many historians who think giving in to Hitler over the Sudetenland wasn't a catastrophic error. Because imperial dictators don't say "Thanks very much, I'll stop now" when you show weakness to them. If you really can't see the lesson there for the current conflict, no amount of me spelling it out is going to help you.

And of course you miss the real moral issue here. When an independent country has been invaded by a brutal dictatorship, it isn't for someone living in comfort far away to tell them to stop fighting and give in to what the dictator wants. It is for them to decide. And for everyone else in the world to choose which side they are on.

Up to them, presumably the Ukraine government, to decide. Which is currently a firm"no deals" and "please give us more weapons, fund our war" directed at the UK and US particularly. Fair enough, so like others here, you're backing the decision to ensure that tens/hundreds of thousands more will die. And you're approving of more hardship, even starvation and death from cold, for millions worldwide, hardship for poorer people, profits for those with investments in fuel, arms and so on.

Interesting pitting that against your passionate covid stance where you were in favour of saving lives and here you're in favour of death.

[Filo]

Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.

How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.

How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.

How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.

The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.

Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?

Go on then. Explain to me why you would have supported Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland, rather than telling them to suck it up because people would get killed if they resist.

This is about Ukraine. What is your idea for a solution there?

You're doing an excellent job of showing your ignorance of history. There aren't many historians who think giving in to Hitler over the Sudetenland wasn't a catastrophic error. Because imperial dictators don't say "Thanks very much, I'll stop now" when you show weakness to them. If you really can't see the lesson there for the current conflict, no amount of me spelling it out is going to help you.

And of course you miss the real moral issue here. When an independent country has been invaded by a brutal dictatorship, it isn't for someone living in comfort far away to tell them to stop fighting and give in to what the dictator wants. It is for them to decide. And for everyone else in the world to choose which side they are on.

Up to them, presumably the Ukraine government, to decide. Which is currently a firm"no deals" and "please give us more weapons, fund our war" directed at the UK and US particularly. Fair enough, so like others here, you're backing the decision to ensure that tens/hundreds of thousands more will die. And you're approving of more hardship, even starvation and death from cold, for millions worldwide, hardship for poorer people, profits for those with investments in fuel, arms and so on.

Interesting pitting that against your passionate covid stance where you were in favour of saving lives and here you're in favour of death.

Thousands would be alive today if Putin had kept within his own Borders, trying to push the blame away from  Russia just doesn’t work, too and bottom of this is that Putin has every death on his head, end of, you can push the pro Russian stance you have taken all you like, it’s bullshit and you know it!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Fuel prices have gone up because Putin has shut off supply.

Food prices have gone up because Putin threatens to sink grain ships leaving Ukraine.

And you say the fault lies with people fighting like f**k to get an evil dictator our of their land, and with the people who support them.

You want fuel prices down? Fuel prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and opens the taps.

You want food prices down? Food prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and allows cargo ships safe passage through the Black Sea.

You are an apologist for an utter Kitson.

You are beyond reprehensible. I don't know whether you truly believe the shite you post, or you're simply a WUM, but either way, you're a disgrace.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Fuel prices have gone up because Putin has shut off supply.

Food prices have gone up because Putin threatens to sink grain ships leaving Ukraine.

And you say the fault lies with people fighting like f**k to get an evil dictator our of their land, and with the people who support them.

You want fuel prices down? Fuel prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and opens the taps.

You want food prices down? Food prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and allows cargo ships safe passage through the Black Sea.

You are an apologist for an utter Kitson.

You are beyond reprehensible. I don't know whether you truly believe the shite you post, or you're simply a WUM, but either way, you're a disgrace.

Still unable to answer a simple constructive question. But at least you substitute that with a pile of senseless pompy poop with flourishings of potty mouth. You surpassed yourself there.

[ncRover]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

Absolutely.

It's as plain as the nose on your face.

If Putin wins because people think the alternative is too hard to bear, what lesson does he learn from that?

Anyone who thinks the lesson he learns is "Ok, that's done. I won't do it again" is simply not using their brain.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

[i_ateallthepies]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yet, which of those two is currently engaged in a full-blown invasion of an independent sovereign state?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Like I said, it goes one way or the other, or Ukraine remains a neutral independent state. And then take into account where Ukraine is. Clue, its not between Mexico or Canada and the US, or off the coast of Cuba.

[bobjimwilly]

No-one forces any country to join NATO? They apply of their own free will through democratic processes, both in their own country and then NATO. That is the difference between countries that join NATO and the countries that Putin has installed puppet leaders in.

And if you fall for Putins line of he's only attacking Ukraine because they were considering NATO,
a) you're naive to the extreme
b) it doesn't f*cking matter! You cannot invade another country because you think they are going to join an alliance - from a legal POV it's got f*ck all to do with Putin!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Putin is ON RECORD, from his own lips, in one of his crazed speeches as saying Ukraine doesn't have any heritage of existence as an independent state outwith Russian control.

These are his precise words, from his own mouth.
"Since time immemorial, the people living in the southwest of what has historically been Russian land have called themselves Russians and Orthodox Christians.

"So, I will start with the fact that modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia or, to be more precise, by Bolshevik, Communist Russia. This process started practically right after the 1917 revolution, and Lenin and his associates did it in a way that was extremely harsh on Russia — by separating, severing what is historically Russian land."

It's got f**k all to do with Russian security. It's all about a crazed old man trying to assert his domination over a neighbour whose right to independence he doesn't recognise.

Read what he said. And see how many knots you have to tie yourself in to claim that the invasion isn't a blatant imperialist land grab.

[Bristol Red Rover]

So, you - BST, BobJim, Pie Eater -  think the US would be okey dokily with the scenario I suggested? I hasten to add that a couple of missiles in Cuba didn't go down too well, and that's not even adjacent to the US.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Oh God help us.

Here's BRR, a man who consistently ignores the clear and obvious parallels between Putin and Hitler, now suggesting there's some form of similarity between Ukraine and Cuba.

The lack of self-awareness of your lack of historical grasp is quite something to witness.

[BessieBlue]

Ha ha

I see the peddler of Putin guff is continuing to peddle

[i_ateallthepies]

So, you - BST, BobJim, Pie Eater -  think the US would be okey dokily with the scenario I suggested? I hasten to add that a couple of missiles in Cuba didn't go down too well, and that's not even adjacent to the US.

You didn't answer my question, BRR.  And I did make it an easy one for you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So, you - BST, BobJim, Pie Eater -  think the US would be okey dokily with the scenario I suggested? I hasten to add that a couple of missiles in Cuba didn't go down too well, and that's not even adjacent to the US.

You didn't answer my question, BRR.  And I did make it an easy one for you.

He never does. He just goes off like a smoke bomb obscuring the point at hand.

I've spent four months trying to get him to accept that he uncritically peddled a Kremlin lie about them lobbing two 6o year old one tonne warheads into a shopping centre and a park in Ukraine. It's as plain a case of deliberate lying as you'll ever find in warfare, but every time I raise it, BRR refuses to engage. Even though he was quick to pass on Kremlin disinformation when it happened.

[Mike_F]

Where do you draw the line, BRR? If Russia invaded Romania would you say the best solution would be for Romania to surrender to avoid further deaths? How about Finland? Or Estonia? Or if they nipped across the Black Sea to annex Turkey?

[wilts rover]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

Not even that. It sets a precendent for Putin to control the world's fuel and grain prices.

[wilts rover]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

I can't be bothered to quote the previous threads about appeasement in the 1930's but don't forget, as well as the pro-German fascists saying we shouldn't fight Hitler over 'a faraway land over which we know nothing' there was a pro-Russian lobby in the UK at the time also arguing against 'the west' re-arming and fighting another war in Europe. Whilst denying that there were any gulags, mass murder of rivals and imposed famines by Stalin and the communists.

They were known as 'the enemy within' people whose world view was based on what was best for the Soviet Union/Russia rather than the UK. Because they hoped Russia would prevail in Europe and then change the UK.

[wilts rover]

Kyiv Independent doing a online Q&A on 'What the west gets wrong about Ukraine' on Friday evening. I think a few people might benefit from joining in to educate themselves from actual Ukrainians in Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1587813495839637505

[Colin C No.3]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Did NATO carry out military manoeuvres on the borders of Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania?

No.

Did NATO deny it intended to invade those countries then did so threatening to use nuclear or biological weapons not only in those countries but should the Russian army put one boot inside those countries to aid them it would lead to an escalation where NATO would use every weapon in its arsenal to defend its position even if that led to WW111?

No.

Did Russia carry out military manoeuvres on the borders of Ukraine?


Did Russia deny it intended to invade Ukraine then did so & as its invasion failed to defeat the Ukraine army & its people fighting to repel the Russian aggressors who sought to engulf their country & make it a state of Russia raping it of its rich wheat fields & resources & when its army stalled & was beaten back losing armoury & soldiers to the extent where it was calling upon murderers, rapists & thieves from its prisons to go to Ukraine to fight alongside mercenaries already there but not content with that, Putin also put in place plans to send its university students & veteran soldiers to prop up his dwindling forces & all in order to save face, his face?


Did Putin threaten to use every weapon in Russia’s arsenal including nuclear & chemical weapons if any NATO country put a boot inside Ukraine in order to fight alongside it?

I’ll let you answer those three either yes or no but I’ll give you a clue. The answer begins with a ‘Y’.

[ravenrover]

I see that Vlad isnow visiting junior schools to give brainwashing lectures

[Colin C No.3]

I see that Vlad isnow visiting junior schools to give brainwashing lectures

And if he sees any of them playing soldiers he’ll have them in fatigues & sent off to fight in Ukraine before you can say Kalashnikov.

[BobG]

I am sitting here, in my study. I have no heat on. It isn't actually freezing, but it is getting a tad nippy. And I am HAPPY to sit here. The poor sods in Kiev and elsewhere are a helluva lot worse off. I would put up with a lot, lot more than this to inconvenience that pustule in the Kremlin.

BobG

[wilts rover]

Rumours that Russia is fleeing Kherson. And also concern that it may be a trap to lure the Ukranians in:

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1588103347709558785

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Rumours that Russia is fleeing Kherson. And also concern that it may be a trap to lure the Ukranians in:

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1588103347709558785

Looks likely it'll get obliterated by the Russians one way or another.

[ncRover]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

[Filo]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country

[Colin C No.3]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country

As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.