Ukraine

[Axholme Lion]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country

As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.

USSR approx 27,000,000

[ncRover]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country

As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.

USSR approx 27,000,000

The horrors of the soviet union are not taught enough in schools. Putin is trying to rekindle its expansionism. Then people would understand better.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country

As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.

USSR approx 27,000,000

Just stop and reflect on that number for a minute.

Then go and do so research. Find out how many died from self inflicted famine. How many died as cannon fodder thrown into the front line without suitable defensive or offensive equipment.

Then ask yourself why Putin idolises Stalin.

[Not Now Kato]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country

As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.

USSR approx 27,000,000

Just stop and reflect on that number for a minute.

Then go and do so research. Find out how many died from self inflicted famine. How many died as cannon fodder thrown into the front line without suitable defensive or offensive equipment.

Then ask yourself why Putin idolises Stalin.

And don't forget those that were shot by their own forces when trying to retreat from an impossible position - an order by Stalin I believe.

[BobG]

Returning and escaping prisoners of the Germans. Those trapped behind the German lines. All sent to the Gulags to die when they got back. Read Solzhenitsyn. Almost any will do. Or Koestler. Lion could do a lot worse than reading both authors to educate himself about how and why so many Russians died.

BobG

[Bristol Red Rover]

Armistice day - founded on the idea of WW1 troops having given their lives for a worthy cause. What a con that was. For me that day is purely about nasty rich boys conning ordinary people to fight for them. The story is the same now. Yes Hitler was mental and evil. You have to also consider how he came to power, which rich boys fueled that. Yes Putin is using troops for a similar cause, but also so is the US scamming Ukraine, using it for it's proxy war. Yet so many here are in favour of that. Weird.

They are all evil gangsters. And at the end of the day, you get scabs like the Tories who screw ordinary people, is that what people fought for? I don't think so.

[ncRover]

Returning and escaping prisoners of the Germans. Those trapped behind the German lines. All sent to the Gulags to die when they got back. Read Solzhenitsyn. Almost any will do. Or Koestler. Lion could do a lot worse than reading both authors to educate himself about how and why so many Russians died.

BobG

gulag archipeligo?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz30g8-T8i0 - this is a good interview

[Bristol Red Rover]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country

As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.

USSR approx 27,000,000

Just stop and reflect on that number for a minute.

Then go and do so research. Find out how many died from self inflicted famine. How many died as cannon fodder thrown into the front line without suitable defensive or offensive equipment.

Then ask yourself why Putin idolises Stalin.

And don't forget those that were shot by their own forces when trying to retreat from an impossible position - an order by Stalin I believe.

Both Russians and Ukraines have been doing exactly that in this conflict.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.

On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.

Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.

Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?

He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country

As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.

USSR approx 27,000,000

Just stop and reflect on that number for a minute.

Then go and do so research. Find out how many died from self inflicted famine. How many died as cannon fodder thrown into the front line without suitable defensive or offensive equipment.

Then ask yourself why Putin idolises Stalin.

And ask yourself why so many Ukraines have idolised the Nazis.

[wilts rover]

Armistice day - founded on the idea of WW1 troops having given their lives for a worthy cause. What a con that was. For me that day is purely about nasty rich boys conning ordinary people to fight for them. The story is the same now. Yes Hitler was mental and evil. You have to also consider how he came to power, which rich boys fueled that. Yes Putin is using troops for a similar cause, but also so is the US scamming Ukraine, using it for it's proxy war. Yet so many here are in favour of that. Weird.

They are all evil gangsters. And at the end of the day, you get scabs like the Tories who screw ordinary people, is that what people fought for? I don't think so.

Putin is the richest man in the world with the wealth of the natural resources he stole, and continues to steal through his proxy oligarchs, from the Russian people. He wants Ukraine for THEIR natural resources - and to deny them to anyone else. That's what meglomaniacs do.

You're lack of condemnation of him and his actions is glaring.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Armistice day - founded on the idea of WW1 troops having given their lives for a worthy cause. What a con that was. For me that day is purely about nasty rich boys conning ordinary people to fight for them. The story is the same now. Yes Hitler was mental and evil. You have to also consider how he came to power, which rich boys fueled that. Yes Putin is using troops for a similar cause, but also so is the US scamming Ukraine, using it for it's proxy war. Yet so many here are in favour of that. Weird.

They are all evil gangsters. And at the end of the day, you get scabs like the Tories who screw ordinary people, is that what people fought for? I don't think so.

Putin is the richest man in the world with the wealth of the natural resources he stole, and continues to steal through his proxy oligarchs, from the Russian people. He wants Ukraine for THEIR natural resources - and to deny them to anyone else. That's what meglomaniacs do.

You're lack of condemnation of him and his actions is glaring.

Hes not te richest man in the world. And as you bring up the issue of mineral rights and land grab, what the heck do you think the US is pouring billions into the country for? Its isn't for the "freedom" of Ukraine's,  tho u know you buy that line.

My lack of condemnation of Putin. Are you that blind, as well as that much of a sucker for propaganda that keeps you in your happy subservient place?

[wilts rover]

Armistice day - founded on the idea of WW1 troops having given their lives for a worthy cause. What a con that was. For me that day is purely about nasty rich boys conning ordinary people to fight for them. The story is the same now. Yes Hitler was mental and evil. You have to also consider how he came to power, which rich boys fueled that. Yes Putin is using troops for a similar cause, but also so is the US scamming Ukraine, using it for it's proxy war. Yet so many here are in favour of that. Weird.

They are all evil gangsters. And at the end of the day, you get scabs like the Tories who screw ordinary people, is that what people fought for? I don't think so.

Putin is the richest man in the world with the wealth of the natural resources he stole, and continues to steal through his proxy oligarchs, from the Russian people. He wants Ukraine for THEIR natural resources - and to deny them to anyone else. That's what meglomaniacs do.

You're lack of condemnation of him and his actions is glaring.

Hes not te richest man in the world. And as you bring up the issue of mineral rights and land grab, what the heck do you think the US is pouring billions into the country for? Its isn't for the "freedom" of Ukraine's,  tho u know you buy that line.

My lack of condemnation of Putin. Are you that blind, as well as that much of a sucker for propaganda that keeps you in your happy subservient place?

No I am not blind, I can read your posts. I suggest you go back and read them for the lack of condemnation/excuse of Putin and his actions - 'There is none so blind as those who won't see'.

Putin gets a percentage of all Russian energy and mineral sales transactions - it's how he funds himself and his cronies and how he allows the oligarchs to stay in power too. He has done for 20 years. Go read Bill Browder's books. I will drop them off for you when I come over to Bristol today if you like.

No-one knows how much he is actually worth - and he isn't telling the Russian people how much he has stolen from them - criminals tend not to. But he is undoutably the richest person in the world - even Elon Musk says so:

https://twitter.com/billbrowder/status/1507853981338505216
https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/vladimir-putin-net-worth-2022/
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vladimir-putin-richest-man-alive-26870511

[Bristol Red Rover]

Apologies, hadn't realised Putin's personal wealth. And yes, there's a pack of oligarchs just a bit further down the ladder. Still,  however you view the means of how that wealth is accumulated, the story is similar in the west eg in the UK right from those that gained from their Norman ancestors, to those that kissed the royals bottoms, to those who robbed and raped various countries, and those that raped and ribbed ordinary people in this country, to those who benefit from a corrupt system of privaledge. All gangsters if only from past evil and current fixing of the system, rather than the Russian, and Ukraine, current evil.

And, I have criticised Putin many a time, not sure what your problem is with reading and comprehension.

[wilts rover]

Because in post 3610 - and many others - you accuse others of heinous acts in pursuit of wealth and power yet deny Putin having done this in February 2022.

Unless you understand this as the motivation for the invasion, along with megalomania, racism and arrogance, then I shall keep reminding you.

Like the Ukranians, people blamed the victims rather than the perpatrators in those other scenarios you quote too btw.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Apologies, hadn't realised Putin's personal wealth. And yes, there's a pack of oligarchs just a bit further down the ladder. Still,  however you view the means of how that wealth is accumulated, the story is similar in the west eg in the UK right from those that gained from their Norman ancestors, to those that kissed the royals bottoms, to those who robbed and raped various countries, and those that raped and ribbed ordinary people in this country, to those who benefit from a corrupt system of privaledge. All gangsters if only from past evil and current fixing of the system, rather than the Russian, and Ukraine, current evil.

And, I have criticised Putin many a time, not sure what your problem is with reading and comprehension.

Another classic of the genre "Yeah Russia's bad, but The West..."

Although bringing William the Conqueror into the argument is an interesting teleological angle.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I thought you'd like the reference to the olden days 

More of a Russia AND the West, than a BUT. I know you're on the West Cheerleaders team, but there you go, both teams kick the ball.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST - the problem with your history lectures is you take a situation with one or two similarities and make out its the same almost identical situation. Effectively rhetorical - by ignorance or intentional? Certainly misleading, for reasons you know too well, unless analysis isn't your thing?

Funnily enough, when I used examples eg Cuba, Mexico, Canada,  to illustrate scenarios that were or would be a reverse of the Ukraine war,  you couldn't accept them, tho gave no reason why.

And still no flicker of a realistic solution for the current situation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And as I said, if you really think there are ANY parallels between Cuba and Ukraine, you know nothing of history.

There is an entirely realistic end to this. Ukraine pushes Russia out of the lands that Russia has invaded. And Putin is overthrown when he's shown to have feet of clay. It's all-but inevitable.

YOU, on the other hand, have never faced up to the consequences of YOUR preferred ending (which is never going to happen).

If Putin is allowed to keep his winnings through threats, what lesson do you think he takes from that?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Cuba - the point was the proximity of a threat to the US.

[BillyStubbsTears]

As I said. Zero comparison.

You are really going to need this spelling out, aren't you?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Fuel prices have gone up because Putin has shut off supply.

Food prices have gone up because Putin threatens to sink grain ships leaving Ukraine.

And you say the fault lies with people fighting like f**k to get an evil dictator our of their land, and with the people who support them.

You want fuel prices down? Fuel prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and opens the taps.

You want food prices down? Food prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and allows cargo ships safe passage through the Black Sea.

You are an apologist for an utter Kitson.

You are beyond reprehensible. I don't know whether you truly believe the shite you post, or you're simply a WUM, but either way, you're a disgrace.

I take it you have inside info about the sabotage on Nord Stream? And you approve of the grain that was exported going to the EU? Yes that's not the whole story, definitely part of it.

[Bristol Red Rover]

As I said. Zero comparison.

You are really going to need this spelling out, aren't you?

Go on then.

[Bristol Red Rover]

No-one forces any country to join NATO? They apply of their own free will through democratic processes, both in their own country and then NATO. That is the difference between countries that join NATO and the countries that Putin has installed puppet leaders in.

And if you fall for Putins line of he's only attacking Ukraine because they were considering NATO,
a) you're naive to the extreme
b) it doesn't f*cking matter! You cannot invade another country because you think they are going to join an alliance - from a legal POV it's got f*ck all to do with Putin!

No thinking they were, they definitely were.

[BillyStubbsTears]

As I said. Zero comparison.

You are really going to need this spelling out, aren't you?

Go on then.

If you insist...

The Cuban Missile Crisis was about the attempt by the Soviet Union to place medium range ballistic nuclear missiles a short distance from the USA. These would have been impossible to defend against and would have seriously threatened America in a way that was far more potent than any other threat the USSR possessed.

The solution to that crisis came when America agreed to remove a similar threat to the USSR (Jupiter MRBMs stationed in Turkey) if the USSR removed its missiles in Cuba. There was a strategic solution that was acceptable to both sides.

There is precisely zero comparison with the Ukraine. Even if you accept the fanciful argument that America wants to use Ukraine to station nuclear missiles that could threaten Russia, what would be gained by that? America already has the ability to devastate Russia with a nuclear attack from its own soil, from MRBMs stationed in Western Europe, from submarine-based ballistic missiles and others.

If America wanted to position other missiles close to the Russian border, it could already call on NATO members in the Baltics, in Poland or in Norway.

But it hasn't done.

Because it doesn't need to.

Because it already has massive potential to devastate Russia.

The other, even more stupid argument is that America wants to have Ukraine so it could launch a conventional invasion of Russia. But there is more chance of the sun rising in the west tomorrow than that happening. If it did, Russia has the ability to devastate America with its own nuclear arsenal.

American troops would never place a toe in Russia without risking the loss of New York, Chicago and LA.

Ukraine in 2022 has precisely zero comparison with Cuba in 1962. Arguments that it does are boneheaded attempts to obscure the real point of Putin's invasion - that he is an imperialist who wants to control his near-abroad because it gives the illusion that Russia is still a Great Power.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.

US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.

The same went for US re Cuba.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.

US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.

The same went for US re Cuba.

Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.

If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.

America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.

You are talking absolute nonsense over this.

I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.

US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.

The same went for US re Cuba.

Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.

If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.

America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.

You are talking absolute nonsense over this.

I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.

Parts of Russia, including Moscow, are closer from Ukraine.

Just because NATO hasn't used Latvia as a missile base doesn't mean it won't use Ukraine now or in the future. Being closer can mean a lot, esp with hypersonic missiles.

So, anyway, it seems you don't think the US would be bothered with Russian missiles in Cuba, or Chinese missiles in Tijuana or Ottawa. Weird.

[SydneyRover]

''How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha''

https://apnews.com/article/bucha-ukraine-war-cleansing-investigation-43e5a9538e9ba68a035756b05028b8b4

[Not Now Kato]

''How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha''

https://apnews.com/article/bucha-ukraine-war-cleansing-investigation-43e5a9538e9ba68a035756b05028b8b4

Frightening! I wonder if BRR will read it all?

[Mike_F]

Utterly horrific reading.

And that's just the events in one area of one town. It's absolutely sickening to think how many civilians must have been tortured and murdered across Ukraine.