Ukraine

[Colin C No.3]

I can’t help but reflect again on Putin’s book where he recalls chasing rats through the stairwells of his tenement block with a big stick.

For those of you who are not familiar with the ‘story’, he found himself alone chasing a particularly large rat, they are termed ‘dog rats’. They are male & solitary having ‘served’ many females of their species. Their only ‘commitment to life’ is survival. Putin cornered the rat & it turned to face him. Now realising he was alone his bravado turned to ‘fear’, in his book he terms it as ‘he against the rat’.

The rat jumps at him & scratches his shoulder as it escapes.
The episode is clearly not lost on him as he refers to the incident in quite a profound manner. However his perception of its ‘meaning’ may yet come back to haunt him as Ukraine becomes the ‘cornered rat’ that turned & jumped at him.

[Bristol Red Rover]

That is a specious argument Bristol. You cannot single out Ukraine as a special case. If Ukraine is a cause of fear for Moscow and military opportunity for western missiles for Washington, then Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Moldova, Sweden, Finland, Britain, Germany and several others fall into the exact same category. There is nothing to distinguish a missile from Kiev from one from any of those other places. None of 'em can be intercepted and none of 'em are far enough away to give any meaningful warning.

You are guilty of special pleading I'm afraid.

Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.

US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.

The same went for US re Cuba.

Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.

If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.

America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.

You are talking absolute nonsense over this.

I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.

Parts of Russia, including Moscow, are closer from Ukraine.

Just because NATO hasn't used Latvia as a missile base doesn't mean it won't use Ukraine now or in the future. Being closer can mean a lot, esp with hypersonic missiles.

So, anyway, it seems you don't think the US would be bothered with Russian missiles in Cuba, or Chinese missiles in Tijuana or Ottawa. Weird.

BobG

Ukraine is closer, or do you think that doesn't matter?

[Bristol Red Rover]

That is a specious argument Bristol. You cannot single out Ukraine as a special case. If Ukraine is a cause of fear for Moscow and military opportunity for western missiles for Washington, then Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Moldova, Sweden, Finland, Britain, Germany and several others fall into the exact same category. There is nothing to distinguish a missile from Kiev from one from any of those other places. None of 'em can be intercepted and none of 'em are far enough away to give any meaningful warning.

You are guilty of special pleading I'm afraid.

Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.

US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.

The same went for US re Cuba.

Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.

If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.

America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.

You are talking absolute nonsense over this.

I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.

Parts of Russia, including Moscow, are closer from Ukraine.

Just because NATO hasn't used Latvia as a missile base doesn't mean it won't use Ukraine now or in the future. Being closer can mean a lot, esp with hypersonic missiles.

So, anyway, it seems you don't think the US would be bothered with Russian missiles in Cuba, or Chinese missiles in Tijuana or Ottawa. Weird.

BobG

Ukraine is closer, or do you think that doesn't matter?

Sorry have I missed something?

How many British pensioners have frozen to death & where was this reported?

This winter coming. Are you unaware of the cold that comes with winter?

[Bristol Red Rover]

''How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha''

https://apnews.com/article/bucha-ukraine-war-cleansing-investigation-43e5a9538e9ba68a035756b05028b8b4

Frightening! I wonder if BRR will read it all?

Yup I did. Terrible incident if that happened as told. There are questions around some of the bodies used being placed by Ukraines. That said, there's no doubt about some of the incidents.

You also have to place all this in context when talking of war crimes. I don't doubt that there are serious crimes here, however Russia, the US, UK especially, and other NATO,  EU countries are all engaged in a geo political Al game, and it is a game, that has caused the deaths of over 100k civilians and military. That is the biggest crime. Falling for the blatent specific incidents over and above the bigger picture is exactly what they want you to do. You then become guilty too.

[ravenrover]

Remind me who has killed/murdered the most civilians

[Bristol Red Rover]

Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?

[glosterred]

Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?

None of which would have happened if Russia had not illegally annexed parts of Ukraine or illegally invaded Ukraine.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Just been watching the BBC documentary Mariupol: The Peoples Story............ it's a hard watch and I don't mind saying there were a few gulps and my eyes watered.... however, I recommend people watch and absorb some of the atrocities that Putin has committed....

Any mention of Azov atrocities? Murders and human shields, many maltreated, starved, refused medication, and even straight killed. Plus their shelling and destruction of infrastructure. Oh, right, you said BBC.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?

None of which would have happened if Russia had not illegally annexed parts of Ukraine or illegally invaded Ukraine.

That makes it okay then?

[Bristol Red Rover]

The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians

Except most were evacuated.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I wonder despite what Zelensky has said, whether pressure may now come to call a halt from NATO. If Putin now accepts that he can't take the whole of Ukraine and settles for the regions that "voted" to rejoin Russia then possibly the end game could be insight. China has called his bluff on nukes, his Generals are going to get all the blame, but he can still claim his special exercises have been a success. Just an optimistic thought

Not a chance. Kherson "voted" to join Russia. Look at the celebrations there tonight.

If Ukraine is still prepared to fight, Putin cannot and must not be allowed out if this with an inch of the land he has stolen.

Boris Johnson in dishuise? I know you go by the bees, but that's just a bit too dim a view.

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's worth noting how no HIMARS were used against the twenty thousand or so Russians crossing the river in Kherson, even managed to take back broken armour.

Its also been suggested that HIMARS use is not only dependant on US authorisation (no doubt on that), but is actually manned by US troops. So the US didn't allow the HIMARS targeting of Russians. If so, then what was the full deal between Russia and the US? Is it limited to Kherson, or is there some end game deal fermenting?

Given Ukraine had around 100k troops on the Kherson front, and Russia had about 20 to 30k, it has to be questioned why a heavily outnumbered Russia was allowed free withdrawal like this.

It doesn't seem Zelensky had or has any say in all this. Just how much of a puppet is he?

There's no current change on all other fronts bar Russians gaining a bit more in Donetsk.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I did wonder when the Russian MoD propaganda-induced constipation would finally break down.

[Filo]

It's worth noting how no HIMARS were used against the twenty thousand or so Russians crossing the river in Kherson, even managed to take back broken armour.

Its also been suggested that HIMARS use is not only dependant on US authorisation (no doubt on that), but is actually manned by US troops. So the US didn't allow the HIMARS targeting of Russians. If so, then what was the full deal between Russia and the US? Is it limited to Kherson, or is there some end game deal fermenting?

Given Ukraine had around 100k troops on the Kherson front, and Russia had about 20 to 30k, it has to be questioned why a heavily outnumbered Russia was allowed free withdrawal like this.

It doesn't seem Zelensky had or has any say in all this. Just how much of a puppet is he?

There's no current change on all other fronts bar Russians gaining a bit more in Donetsk.

Geobbels  would be proud of you

[BillyStubbsTears]

I love it when BRR uses "it has been suggested". When we all know he means "Russian MoD says..." but he can't bring himself to say it.

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's worth noting how no HIMARS were used against the twenty thousand or so Russians crossing the river in Kherson, even managed to take back broken armour.

Its also been suggested that HIMARS use is not only dependant on US authorisation (no doubt on that), but is actually manned by US troops. So the US didn't allow the HIMARS targeting of Russians. If so, then what was the full deal between Russia and the US? Is it limited to Kherson, or is there some end game deal fermenting?

Given Ukraine had around 100k troops on the Kherson front, and Russia had about 20 to 30k, it has to be questioned why a heavily outnumbered Russia was allowed free withdrawal like this.

It doesn't seem Zelensky had or has any say in all this. Just how much of a puppet is he?

There's no current change on all other fronts bar Russians gaining a bit more in Donetsk.

Geobbels  would be proud of you

With your lack of critique I think it's you who're the sucker for propaganda. Though if you have anything to pass on please do - beyond blatent BBC propaganda, written Goebels cousin, fact.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I love it when BRR uses "it has been suggested". When we all know he means "Russian MoD says..." but he can't bring himself to say it.

Proving your lack of critical reading, indeed reading at all, but speed of rhetorical nonsense. Same old...

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

All you have to do is show us the links where "it's been suggested". You must have read them, so why not share them? Then we can make up our own minds whether to trust them.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Various you tube commentators for one - if you had interest you'd know them. Also twitter. All proven to be accurate over the course of the conflict. Unlike your BBC luvvies who report on one side, steered by Ukraine Mod, and US reports. Yet you swallow them endlessly.

YouTube go see weeb union, new world econ, military summary, theti mapping.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Anyway BST, cut to the chase. Are you saying all I said was crap in that post, or do you agree with some, is some interesting? Chat, discuss perhaps,  give some of your opinion based on this conflict not one from the olden days, take into account global politics, US, CHINA,  Russia, Brazil, EU etc. Who is playing who, who is more desperate, who is expanding, who is shrinking, who is duping who. Just quit with the very tiresome microscopic attention deficit view pushed by the BBC and their fellow establishment mouthpieces.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm saying you have numerous times repeated flat out lies straight from the Russian MoD. You've never reflected on that and never retracted those posts or apologised. You just rinse and repeat.

It would be farcical if the context wasn't so tragic.

[wilts rover]

Anyway BST, cut to the chase. Are you saying all I said was crap in that post, or do you agree with some, is some interesting? Chat, discuss perhaps,  give some of your opinion based on this conflict not one from the olden days, take into account global politics, US, CHINA,  Russia, Brazil, EU etc. Who is playing who, who is more desperate, who is expanding, who is shrinking, who is duping who. Just quit with the very tiresome microscopic attention deficit view pushed by the BBC and their fellow establishment mouthpieces.

No idea what BST thinks but yup - right old load of b*llocks.

Ukraine's tactic is to use the HIMARS to hit supply lines, logistic sites and ammo dumps thus making it impossible for Russia to hold ground. Russia's is to kill as many people as possible. I have been telling you this for weeks - that's why there has been no big set piece battle anywhere in the Ukrainian advance - and why it has been so successful.

Funny how none of your youtube friends appears to be in Ukraine.

[glosterred]

The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians

Except most were evacuated.

LOL

[glosterred]

Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?

None of which would have happened if Russia had not illegally annexed parts of Ukraine or illegally invaded Ukraine.

That makes it okay then?

No, it makes it a result of an illegal invasion. Something that you seem to gloss over whenever you try to defend this Russian invasion of a sovereign country.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Seems Russia are now withdrawing from the south side of the river too. This will obvs raise fears they won't stop until they breach the dam and flood the Kherson region.

Also early signs from aerial photography they are moving equipment and ships out of Crimea .

One wonders whether there's a potential trade off if Ukraine can get Crimea back whilst allowing Russia to stay in Donesk and Luhansk?

[Not Now Kato]

''How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha''

https://apnews.com/article/bucha-ukraine-war-cleansing-investigation-43e5a9538e9ba68a035756b05028b8b4

Frightening! I wonder if BRR will read it all?

Yup I did. Terrible incident if that happened as told. There are questions around some of the bodies used being placed by Ukraines. That said, there's no doubt about some of the incidents.

You also have to place all this in context when talking of war crimes. I don't doubt that there are serious crimes here, however Russia, the US, UK especially, and other NATO,  EU countries are all engaged in a geo political Al game, and it is a game, that has caused the deaths of over 100k civilians and military. That is the biggest crime. Falling for the blatent specific incidents over and above the bigger picture is exactly what they want you to do. You then become guilty too.

Thank you for taking the time to read it, though you seem to doubt it happened as told - yet there is no evidence to the contrary that I can see.
 
I'm saddened that you see this as some sort of AI game.  It isn't.  It is clearly a war, instigated by Putin who is totally responsible for every single death and atrocity that has taken place under his direction.  Because of this I can clearly see the wider picture and if I am guilty of calling that out then I'm happy to be called so.

[ravenrover]

Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?

As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.

What happens then?

History doesn't stop.

Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.

I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.

But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?

[Bristol Red Rover]

I'm saying you have numerous times repeated flat out lies straight from the Russian MoD. You've never reflected on that and never retracted those posts or apologised. You just rinse and repeat.

It would be farcical if the context wasn't so tragic.

Vague

[Bristol Red Rover]

Anyway BST, cut to the chase. Are you saying all I said was crap in that post, or do you agree with some, is some interesting? Chat, discuss perhaps,  give some of your opinion based on this conflict not one from the olden days, take into account global politics, US, CHINA,  Russia, Brazil, EU etc. Who is playing who, who is more desperate, who is expanding, who is shrinking, who is duping who. Just quit with the very tiresome microscopic attention deficit view pushed by the BBC and their fellow establishment mouthpieces.

No idea what BST thinks but yup - right old load of b*llocks.

Ukraine's tactic is to use the HIMARS to hit supply lines, logistic sites and ammo dumps thus making it impossible for Russia to hold ground. Russia's is to kill as many people as possible. I have been telling you this for weeks - that's why there has been no big set piece battle anywhere in the Ukrainian advance - and why it has been so successful.

Funny how none of your youtube friends appears to be in Ukraine.

Ukraine not shelling Donetsk. Not using human shields. Yeah right... just using HIMARS on ammo. Well they didn't use them on retreating Russians when it would have been easy to knock out 10k troops and hundreds of tanks etc.