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Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 09:04:59 pmQuote from: Filo on November 11, 2022, 03:11:25 pmThe civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the UkrainiansExcept most were evacuated. LOL
Quote from: Filo on November 11, 2022, 03:11:25 pmThe civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the UkrainiansExcept most were evacuated.
The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 08:50:05 pmDepends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years? As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.What happens then?History doesn't stop. Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
Quote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 01:35:28 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 08:50:05 pmDepends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years? As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 04:57:14 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 01:35:28 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 08:50:05 pmDepends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years? As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion. Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 13, 2022, 01:51:31 pmHere's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.What happens then?History doesn't stop. Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 13, 2022, 01:51:31 pmHere's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.What happens then?History doesn't stop. Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
Quote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 05:31:55 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 04:57:14 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 01:35:28 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 08:50:05 pmDepends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years? As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion. Can't bring yourself to do it, shameSo you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 06:20:07 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 05:31:55 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 04:57:14 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 01:35:28 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 08:50:05 pmDepends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years? As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion. Can't bring yourself to do it, shameSo you don't know either. Fog of war eh! The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmmI'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
Quote from: glosterred on November 13, 2022, 07:37:21 amQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 09:04:59 pmQuote from: Filo on November 11, 2022, 03:11:25 pmThe civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the UkrainiansExcept most were evacuated. LOLYou think not?
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 05:07:33 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 13, 2022, 01:51:31 pmHere's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.What happens then?History doesn't stop. Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine.And Transnistria?And the Baltics?And Finland?Poland?Georgia?Azerbaijan?Shall I go on?A less intelligent person than you could be forgiven for not understanding Putin's imperial expansionism. With you, it feels more like choosing to ignore it because it doesn't fit what you want to be true.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 05:07:33 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 13, 2022, 01:51:31 pmHere's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.What happens then?History doesn't stop. Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US. Rubbish - and victim blaming.Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.
Quote from: ravenrover on November 14, 2022, 12:11:23 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 06:20:07 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 05:31:55 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 04:57:14 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 01:35:28 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 08:50:05 pmDepends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years? As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion. Can't bring yourself to do it, shameSo you don't know either. Fog of war eh! The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmmI'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sourcesI fear you're wasting your time. BRR doesn't trust the UN. He DOES uncritically trust lies spewed out by the Russian MoD though. Strange, but there you go...
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 04:51:42 pmQuote from: glosterred on November 13, 2022, 07:37:21 amQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 09:04:59 pmQuote from: Filo on November 11, 2022, 03:11:25 pmThe civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the UkrainiansExcept most were evacuated. LOLYou think not? No I don’t, I think it was a rigged vote
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 14, 2022, 01:09:16 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 14, 2022, 12:11:23 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 06:20:07 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 05:31:55 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 04:57:14 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 01:35:28 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 08:50:05 pmDepends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years? As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion. Can't bring yourself to do it, shameSo you don't know either. Fog of war eh! The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmmI'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sourcesI fear you're wasting your time. BRR doesn't trust the UN. He DOES uncritically trust lies spewed out by the Russian MoD though. Strange, but there you go...Ha, not true. Though it's obvious you regurgitate Zelensky, Biden, their MoDs, their prescribed version of events.
Quote from: ravenrover on November 14, 2022, 12:11:23 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 06:20:07 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 05:31:55 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 04:57:14 pmQuote from: ravenrover on November 13, 2022, 01:35:28 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 12, 2022, 08:50:05 pmDepends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years? As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion. Can't bring yourself to do it, shameSo you don't know either. Fog of war eh! The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmmI'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sourcesKilled by who?
Quote from: wilts rover on November 13, 2022, 06:51:33 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on November 13, 2022, 05:07:33 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 13, 2022, 01:51:31 pmHere's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.What happens then?History doesn't stop. Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US. Rubbish - and victim blaming.Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.