Ukraine

[wilts rover]

Thoughts it might have been a Russian cruise missile intercepted & shot down by Ukranian anti-aircraft missile over Ukraine - with debris falling on Poland:

https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura/status/1592593028220620802

[ravenrover]

Denied by Russia, well there's a turn up for the book who would have thought it
It appears there is a training camp in Ukraine in that region which has been attacked previously, speculation that was the target.
It would also seem that intelligence will be able to ascertain where the missile came from

[Nudga]

FTX distraction.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Thoughts it might have been a Russian cruise missile intercepted & shot down by Ukranian anti-aircraft missile over Ukraine - with debris falling on Poland:

https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura/status/1592593028220620802

That would be a convenient explanation.

[mushRTID]

FTX distraction.

What do you mean?

[Nudga]

FTX distraction.

What do you mean?

Look over there while we clean up the laundromat.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nudga's morphed into Father Calvin Robinson.

[Nudga]

Suppose it's better than the David icke "banter" you dished out before.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's equally dumb. Just a stream of batshit far-right b*llocks.

[Colin C No.3]

FTX distraction.

It’s like a UFO mush but with that ‘unknown’ X factor.

I’ll send you the blueprints in a PM if you promise not to show the neighbours?

What do you mean?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Dominic Cummings tonight retweeting the same batshit FTX/Poland meme from a conspiracy theorist.

You're in good company Nudga.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?

Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?

Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?

Transnistria is not "as good as Russian". It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)

Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?

Really?

I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.

Baltic are NATO, Poland too.

Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.

Cleethorpes should be given up.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?

As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?

Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.

Can't bring yourself to do it, shame

So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources

Killed by who?

I'm going to have a wild guess at Russia, over to you

Russia and Ukraine. Weird guess of yours given Ukraine shelling of Donetsk for 8 years.

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's equally dumb. Just a stream of batshit far-right b*llocks.

Would batshit crazy support for an imperialist US natrative be left wing then?

By the way, even pro Ukraine sources say the missile was their air defence missile. Nice bit of transparent stoking the Western publics fear of Russia by the media, and those that swallow it.

[Bristol Red Rover]

There are currently 4 Typhoons and a stratotanker patrolling the East Coast of the UK, along with a Hercules

Cleethorpes going independent with backing from Russia.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Ruskies will say a) made up by West or b) False flag op by Ukraine to try to get NATO involved

But that's what happened, as far as the Western media stories go and knee jerk responses. Can you see the game? Even tho evidently not a Russian missile directed at Poland/NATO, the fear is whipped up which gathers public behind the massive financial cost of a proxy war in Ukraine. A cost that is massively impacting the UK and Euro NATO countries causing a slide away from the military action in public opinion.

[Bristol Red Rover]

 

Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.

What happens then?

History doesn't stop.

Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.

I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.

But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?

I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.

Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.

The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU,  and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.

Rubbish - and victim blaming.

Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.

Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.

Open yours.

Russia illegally invaded a sovereign independent country, twice, due to the richest man in the world wanting to expand his empire and erradicate a country he doesn't believe should exisit (not what I think - but what Putin has said) and all you can do is talk about the US.

Open your eyes.

Thing is Wilts,  my eyes are open, I know Russia was itching for a bite at Ukraine, as did the US. Georgia and a couple of other southern border states that were part of USSR are vulnerable too.. The propaganda about Poland, even the whole of Ukraine is nonsense.

So your eyes are open. Tell me how you see US expansionism.

[ravenrover]

Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?

As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?

Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.

Can't bring yourself to do it, shame

So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources

Killed by who?

I'm going to have a wild guess at Russia, over to you

Russia and Ukraine. Weird guess of yours given Ukraine shelling of Donetsk for 8 years.

Any figures on the split then? I'm sure your sources can supply some

[Bristol Red Rover]

32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?

Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.

And about 200 before the Donbas war started.

To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?

Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?

Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?

Transnistria is not "as good as Russian". It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)

Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?

Really?

I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.

Baltic are NATO, Poland too.

Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.

Cleethorpes should be given up.

First rule of being a smart arse. Make sure you're on solid ground.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?

Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?

Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?

Transnistria is not "as good as Russian". It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)

Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?

Really?

I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.

Baltic are NATO, Poland too.

Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.

Cleethorpes should be given up.

Err. Do you really need someone to point out what you are saying here?

[wilts rover]

Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.

What happens then?

History doesn't stop.

Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.

I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.

But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?

I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.

Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.

The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU,  and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.

Rubbish - and victim blaming.

Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.

Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.

Open yours.

Russia illegally invaded a sovereign independent country, twice, due to the richest man in the world wanting to expand his empire and erradicate a country he doesn't believe should exisit (not what I think - but what Putin has said) and all you can do is talk about the US.

Open your eyes.

Thing is Wilts,  my eyes are open, I know Russia was itching for a bite at Ukraine, as did the US. Georgia and a couple of other southern border states that were part of USSR are vulnerable too.. The propaganda about Poland, even the whole of Ukraine is nonsense.

So your eyes are open. Tell me how you see US expansionism.

Totally irrelevant to the illegal invasion of an independent sovereign country by an imperialist fascist dictator who doesn't believe that country should exist.

Tell us why you dont think that country should be able & assisted to defend itself against that invasion?

[wilts rover]

Kherson became the only major city to fall to invading Russian troops in early March.

Particularly heavy fighting was reported on March 1. A graphic video surfaced online showing bodies of Ukrainian soldiers with missing limbs or heads left in a park.

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1592935898915950593

I blame FTX or false flag - otherwise this is the barbarism I am attempting to excuse.

[ravenrover]

32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?

Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.

And about 200 before the Donbas war started.

To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.

Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?

[Dutch Uncle]

Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?

Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?

Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?

Transnistria is not "as good as Russian". It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)

Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?

Really?

I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.

Baltic are NATO, Poland too.

Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.

Cleethorpes should be given up.

First rule of being a smart arse. Make sure you're on solid ground.

The Suwalki Gap along the Poland-Lithuanian border - a potential access from Russia (via Belarus) to their Kaliningrad enclave - is probably the most at risk real estate in all NATO territory on mainland Europe

https://time.com/4675758/suwalki-gap-europe-photos/

[Bristol Red Rover]

Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.

What happens then?

History doesn't stop.

Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.

I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.

But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?

I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.

Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.

The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU,  and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.

Rubbish - and victim blaming.

Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.

Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.

Open yours.

Russia illegally invaded a sovereign independent country, twice, due to the richest man in the world wanting to expand his empire and erradicate a country he doesn't believe should exisit (not what I think - but what Putin has said) and all you can do is talk about the US.

Open your eyes.

Thing is Wilts,  my eyes are open, I know Russia was itching for a bite at Ukraine, as did the US. Georgia and a couple of other southern border states that were part of USSR are vulnerable too.. The propaganda about Poland, even the whole of Ukraine is nonsense.

So your eyes are open. Tell me how you see US expansionism.

Totally irrelevant to the illegal invasion of an independent sovereign country by an imperialist fascist dictator who doesn't believe that country should exist.

Tell us why you dont think that country should be able & assisted to defend itself against that invasion?

If it wasn't for US imperialism, Russia wouldn't be in Ukraine, simples. If you can step out from that vortex of a blindfold you have imposed on you, you might find you can open your eyes.

We could talk about who is defending who in Ukraine, because not one man out on the front will benefit. The gangsters in government and gangsters behind the government, and behind the front lines are the ones not wanting to lose out. Them and the US investors who own huge amounts of Ukraine land etc. Oh yeah, except for those believing in the mythical nationalistic ideas, ideas given to the masses to keep them obedient. At best it's a case of defend and die for the devil you know. Sad innit.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Kherson became the only major city to fall to invading Russian troops in early March.

Particularly heavy fighting was reported on March 1. A graphic video surfaced online showing bodies of Ukrainian soldiers with missing limbs or heads left in a park.

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1592935898915950593

I blame FTX or false flag - otherwise this is the barbarism I am attempting to excuse.

In that vid, I saw one several dead soldiers, and one with his head missing, though he was next to a tree that had been hit by at least one sizable shell, the kind that could easily have taken a head off. The neck certainly hadn't been severed by a blade, or if it had then the local dogs had been for a feed and roughened it up. The body of that man was either shot 24 plus times or had been ripped into by shrapnel. Some of the holes were larger than bullet holes - could have been both.

Or maybe I'm missing what barbarism you are refering to? Apart from the barbarism of war.

And remember you exaggerated. It was only one body with a missing head. You paint a picture of something completely different.

[Bristol Red Rover]

32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?

Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.

And about 200 before the Donbas war started.

To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.

Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?

Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.

[BillyStubbsTears]

32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?

Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.

And about 200 before the Donbas war started.

To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.

Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?

Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.

"We have no details"

That's a cracker, even by your standards of ignoring any war crimes by Russia.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?

Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?

Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?

Transnistria is not "as good as Russian". It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)

Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?

Really?

I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.

Baltic are NATO, Poland too.

Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.

Cleethorpes should be given up.

First rule of being a smart arse. Make sure you're on solid ground.

The Suwalki Gap along the Poland-Lithuanian border - a potential access from Russia (via Belarus) to their Kaliningrad enclave - is probably the most at risk real estate in all NATO territory on mainland Europe

https://time.com/4675758/suwalki-gap-europe-photos/

Not sure about that. I usually go from Moscow into Belarus and take the E30 into Minsk, catch the E28 and head up to Vilnius and then the same road all the way to Kaliningrad. Google agrees.

The train goes almost the identical route.