Ukraine

[wilts rover]

I am reminded of my old Ruskin College history tutor, a wonderful bloke named Raphael Samuels. Raph used to tell us stories of his time in the British Communist Party and how after 1945 they thought they could transform British society.

Then came the 1956 Hungarian uprising and it's putdown by Soviet tanks. Raph and thousands of his friends and colleagues spoke out against this and left the BCP which led to a split in the British left. Which has never really recovered.

The Party continued to defend the Soviet actions as it still continued to deny Stalin had ordered purges and built death camps killing millions. Because the Soviets were always right in what they said and did - because they were soviet.

We know now of course it was all lies. The Soviet Union murdered millions of people who disagreed with them and murdered unarmed ordinary people who rose up against their puppet government. Yet many in the British left defended it because...

As I said, I am reminded of this.

[Bristol Red Rover]

  meant what I said, I don't know exactly what he said, generally pointing to the Ukraine deaths near Kyiv. I know the general situation ie he's opposition to the establishment, similar to Assange, similar to Corbyn.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I am reminded of my old Ruskin College history tutor, a wonderful bloke named Raphael Samuels. Raph used to tell us stories of his time in the British Communist Party and how after 1945 they thought they could transform British society.

Then came the 1956 Hungarian uprising and it's putdown by Soviet tanks. Raph and thousands of his friends and colleagues spoke out against this and left the BCP which led to a split in the British left. Which has never really recovered.

The Party continued to defend the Soviet actions as it still continued to deny Stalin had ordered purges and built death camps killing millions. Because the Soviets were always right in what they said and did - because they were soviet.

We know now of course it was all lies. The Soviet Union murdered millions of people who disagreed with them and murdered unarmed ordinary people who rose up against their puppet government. Yet many in the British left defended it because...

As I said, I am reminded of this.

I agree those times were bad, and to be reminded of that is no surprise. However this situation, this war, is not the same as that. For one, clear US interference and their documented desire to create a conflict is a difference.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Translation.

I agree that the time under Stalin was bad, when western useful idiots said that crimes against humanity were fabricated by the West, or excused them because they said they were the inevitable response of Stalin to Western aggression.

But that's nothing like now, when the crimes against humanity committed by Putin are either made up by the West, or the fault of the West for their aggressive stance against Russia.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Translation.

I agree that the time under Stalin was bad, when western useful idiots said that crimes against humanity were fabricated by the West, or excused them because they said they were the inevitable response of Stalin to Western aggression.

But that's nothing like now, when the crimes against humanity committed by Putin are either made up by the West, or the fault of the West for their aggressive stance against Russia.

You are a cad! First, it's not a stance against Russia, that would imply no action when the evidence shows a lengthy and increasing provocation of Russia. Not a stance, eh?

All armies commit atrocities,  that's not excusing anything Russian forces have done, but BST, get a real perspective, take the blinkers off.

I think I'll stick to Google translate BTW.

[BillyStubbsTears]

But you DO excuse atrocities by Russian forces. When they lobbed those anti shop missiles at a shopping   centre and a park, you immediately repeatedly Kremlin lies that they were precision missies which had hit NATO-supplied arms dumps. You've never recanted that, despite every opportunity to do so.

Doesn't matter how many times Putin does this, your response is always, always to deflect. Just like the Useful Idiots said the invasion and massacre in Hungary was provoked by the West trying to undermine the Soviet Bloc. Just like the Useful Idiots who denied that Stalin was responsible for the Katyn Massacre. Or the Holodomir.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Been drinking mulled rhetoric again?

That shopping centre incident I stand by, they were definitely aimed at military targets. But the rest, for freaks sake stop talking such b*llocks. Even Johnson wouldn't go that far.

By the way,  still waiting on one word of condemnation on Ukraine/US forces. The continued shelling of Donetsk perhaps? Oh, yeah, you did shudder a bit at one of the Ukraine shooting of prisoners, not other ones though.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You simply cannot back down can you?

The shopping centre attack used missiles with 60 year old guidance systems that could not possibly be used for a precision attack on anything. They were simply chucked into a city centre as a means of terrorising the civilian population. You are still, 6 months later parroting Kremlin lies. It is pitiful to see.

The rest? Your equivalents in previous decades did PRECISELY what you are doing now. Throwing smoke over everything Russian tyrants do, and blaming the West. Useful idiots, Stalin called them. What do you reckon Putin thinks you are?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Tell me BST, in your mind, your world, what atrocities have Ukraine committed, or even possibly committed?

What do you see as the US interference before the invasion, and before 2014?

3rd question, how do you realistically see this progressing from here?

[SydneyRover]

''Businesses from Hong Kong to Florida tied to Russian drones killing people in Ukraine''

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-18/global-supply-trail-that-leads-to-russias-killer-drones/101780832

apologies if this has already been posted

[BobG]

Personally, I hope Ukraine commits atrocity after atrocity after atrocity against the unspeakable thugs who have murdered, raped and destroyed absolutely everything that is not theirs. There is NO defence for the crimes of these Russian swines. They are evil. They are 19th century imperialists in a 21st century world. Until they grow up they deserve to be treated as the animals they so obviously are.

BobG

[Bristol Red Rover]

Personally, I hope Ukraine commits atrocity after atrocity after atrocity against the unspeakable thugs who have murdered, raped and destroyed absolutely everything that is not theirs. There is NO defence for the crimes of these Russian swines. They are evil. They are 19th century imperialists in a 21st century world. Until they grow up they deserve to be treated as the animals they so obviously are.

BobG

Imperialist, but not 21st, or even 20th century enough for you?

Intriguing thought of wanting more attrocities committed by the way, that sounds more 1st century.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I see the head of the Wagner Group is positioning himself for the end game when Russia's invasion collapses a d Putin is replaced (by him if he gets his way). He's been saying that the war is a mistake and that the fighting of Russian against Russian (read: "Russian against Ukrainian" but the nationalists can't say that) is a tragedy.

[BobG]

No Bristol. It has Biblical support.

BobG

[Bristol Red Rover]

No Bristol. It has Biblical support.

BobG

[BobG]

I was sitting out in the sun today with Alex and we ended up chatting about the inevitable Russia and Ukraine. The thought crossed my mind that what we are seeing today is on a direct line with what we saw in 1956, 1967 and 1979. It would be interesting to explore the depth of the parallels between all four of these Russian militaristic foreign adventures...

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think this one is very different Bob.

56 and 68 were models of what Putin THOUGHT this was going to be like - Russia disapproves of the Govt of a country it considers to be subservient to it. So they send the tanks in. There's little opposition. They decapitate the leadership and impose their own men.

That's what Putin told Xie was going to happen in February.

79 was about intervening in a messy, interminable civil war that Russia desperately wanted to stay out of, but had to wade into because a Marxist Govt, loyal to Moscow, was in danger of being overthrown. Moscow couldn't lose face so they went in. And got bogged down in a decade-long asymmetrical conflict against Western-backed Mujahedeen.

Ukraine has become a full on imperialistic war of territorial conquest. It's of a form and scale that Russia hasn't been involved in since 1945, but which they used to do every generation before that. WWII, Russo-Polish War WWI, Russo-Japanese War, Crimean War, etc, etc, etc...

In 56 and 68, Russian military deaths were trivial. Even in Afghanistan there were "only" 15,000 Russian deaths in a decade. Ukraine is on a different scale. Best estimates are that Russian has lost 200,000 killed and wounded in 9-10 months. It's truly horrific and Putin would give his right bollock to roll the clock back and not have invaded last February.

[ravenrover]

Now we await the response from Putins puppet

[Bristol Red Rover]

....Ukraine is on a different scale. Best estimates are that Russian has lost 200,000 killed and wounded in 9-10 months....

Far from "best estimates". Double even the western estimates I've seen - what's your source?

[BobG]

Rather than the military events and outcomes I was wondering about similarities, or differences, in the political and cultural values that led to each of these imperialist adventures.

BobG

[Bristol Red Rover]

Rather than the military events and outcomes I was wondering about similarities, or differences, in the political and cultural values that led to each of these imperialist adventures.

BobG

The Czech and Hungarian invasions were about keeping tight Russias influence. I think the pervading values there were mostly around the vision of the Soviet Union being powerful and holding what it felt was now it's backyard free from Western influence as well as milking it itself. No doubt there was at least an element of defenciveness in the shadow of a US becoming the great world power. So some similarities to the current situation but more of an iron fist attitude.

The Afghan war I think was an opportunity by the Soviets to keep a government under it's umbrella. The intervention may well have dragged on, but the US funding of the Mujahideen ($20 billion plus) certainly added to that. The US seeing an opportuntity to weaken the Soviet Union felt this was money well spent. I think this war resonated far less to the Soviets than the Czech and Hungarian interventions. Also resonated far less culturally and amongst the Soviet citizens. They didn't expect the US to join in with what was a proxy war, and they possibly wouldn't have acted if they have known the size of the US investment. Staying there not to lose face was a key motivation. So different to the above in that it was less of a defensive action, and very different in that it was a proxy war. That proxy is similar to the current situation.

The difference with Ukraine is that Russians see it more overtly as Western agression, expansion, imperialism if you like. It is also adjacent to their borders - as was Hungary to the Soviets, though Ukraine is in so many ways the blood brother of Russia where Hungary was far more distant, more just a neighbour. By taunting a section of the Ukraine leadership with NATO and the EU, and then moving towards instigating all that, the West - really the US - had stepped over Russia's garden gate and having a crafty joint by the hedge, passing it to Ukraine to indulge too.

I know most here won't see it like that, it's not what the west portrays, but it is how the majority of Russians see it. What a fackin liberty, they might say.

As for the leadership - I think it's a far more serious pushing of them that ever before. The US knows this. But kust looking at leadership, we're looking at people with huge personal investments - financial, ego, emotional, and legacy. That's no different to the leaders back in the Soviet days, and no different to the US leaders (not the president so much as he's the puppet), and the new pro western leaders in Ukraine. All in it for themselves. Even our Boris who went over to persuade Zelensky not to accept the Minsk agreements and vow full western support - ie loans to be paid back. And now we have another proxy war, one that could easily draw in Poland and then we're all fecked.

Bob,  you asked the question about Russian/Soviet culture. How much do you think western/US politics, culture, intervention is different in these situations?

[BillyStubbsTears]

My mistake.
200,000 on both sides. 100,000 each.

The main point still holds. This is by far the most destructive conflict that Russia has been involved in since 1945. And there is no way on God's earth Putin would have sunk into this if he'd known what was coming.

[Colin C No.3]

meant what I said, I don't know exactly what he said, generally pointing to the Ukraine deaths near Kyiv. I know the general situation ie he's opposition to the establishment, similar to Assange, similar to Corbyn.

The laughing face imogi on your post speaks volumes about you as a person so lost up in a ‘debate’ you can’t wait to ‘dive in’ & attempt to provide Putin’s‘ legitimacy’ for this war.

Think on that the next time you talk about the number of deaths this war has claimed thus far & on whose head those deaths ultimately lie.

I make this post after stating I would no longer give credence to your posts by ‘reacting’ to them, however.

‘Evil prospers when ‘good men’ turn a blind eye’.

Or perhaps in your case, when a ‘good man’ (?) refuses to open his eyes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This sums up the whole war.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Biz_Ukraine_Mag/status/1605551130892636160

The Putin coterie truly is like a Cosa Nostra.

Respect us or we will make you respect us.

Except they won't.

[tommy toes]

This sums up the whole war.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Biz_Ukraine_Mag/status/1605551130892636160

The Putin coterie truly is like a Cosa Nostra.

Respect us or we will make you respect us.

Except they won't.

This bloke is living in cloud cuckoo land.
How on earth does he believe a weakened Russia can stand up to the US and Europe in a conventional war, because China won't get involved, they've made that clear.

Sure, they can bring on Armageddon with their nuclear arsenal, but thats a Pyrrhic victory that doesn't bear thinking about.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No-one with any sense in Russia believes that.

But Kitsons like this do the job of pouring this uber-nationalist w**k fantasy into the heads of grindingly poor folk who have been robbed by the kleptocrats.

Better to keep people poor, ignorant and dreaming of faux nationalist glory, than actually encourage them to make their world better by demanding Russia act like a grown up country. While ever they can keep people like that, the gangster thugs can continue to rule.

[Colin C No.3]

There'll be the grieving families of 100,000 dead Russian soldiers who won't be swallowing that crap.

There are many 'younger' Russians who have travelled or lived abroad, they won't be buying into such rhetoric either.

I suspect Putin wishes he could turn the clock back.

[BillyStubbsTears]

True Colin, but it's amazing what nationalistic drivel you can sell to people who want to hear it.

Kemi Badenoch was at it yesterday, insisting that our British right to make deals with anyone in the world will more than make up for the wealth we are haemorrhaging through lower trade with the EU. There are millions in this country that will believe that because it plays to their prejudices. Even though it is complete b*llocks.

[Bristol Red Rover]

meant what I said, I don't know exactly what he said, generally pointing to the Ukraine deaths near Kyiv. I know the general situation ie he's opposition to the establishment, similar to Assange, similar to Corbyn.

The laughing face imogi on your post speaks volumes about you as a person so lost up in a ‘debate’ you can’t wait to ‘dive in’ & attempt to provide Putin’s‘ legitimacy’ for this war.

Think on that the next time you talk about the number of deaths this war has claimed thus far & on whose head those deaths ultimately lie.

I make this post after stating I would no longer give credence to your posts by ‘reacting’ to them, however.

‘Evil prospers when ‘good men’ turn a blind eye’.

Or perhaps in your case, when a ‘good man’ (?) refuses to open his eyes.

You're not making sense. I wasn't giving legitimacy to anyone, just simply putting this case in perspective and out of hysteria. But stick with hysteria if that's how your life works for you.

[Bristol Red Rover]

My mistake.
200,000 on both sides. 100,000 each.

The main point still holds. This is by far the most destructive conflict that Russia has been involved in since 1945. And there is no way on God's earth Putin would have sunk into this if he'd known what was coming.

This seems to be a reasonable, and detailed assessment of casualties.
https://youtu.be/Bfj2c5racUY