Ukraine

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid?  Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own

And wth that, I think this discussion has run out over the edge of the boundary or reality and off into la-la-land.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?

Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.

Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any

Filo. I'll translate.

Ukraine recaptured about 30,000 km^2 in Kharkiv and Kherson. Since then, the Wagner Group have won a couple of street blocks in Bakhmut.

So that's level playing.

[ravenrover]

So what have the civilians of Kherson done to deserve this Russian shelling? I thought according to Russia they supported the Russian occupation as most of them were actually Russian

[Nudga]

Is this what's known as the fog of war?


https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1607503509670473728?t=aOTuzxTz0N1tyv9CESrDcg&s=19

[BillyStubbsTears]

Is this what's known as the fog of war?


https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1607503509670473728?t=aOTuzxTz0N1tyv9CESrDcg&s=19

Yes. It's f**king horrible. And totally unnecessary.

[Colin C No.3]

Unnecessary. I take it you’re referring to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine?

Inevitable when you’re fighting for your country’s very existence as a result of an unnecessary invasion.

‘Casualties of war’. That covers many forms of casualty. We all know what atrocities the ‘Russian soldiers’ have inflicted on the civilian population. It’s incomprehensible, indefensible & obscene.

I hope that one day they are held to account, especially Putin. The little Russian Hitler.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes, of course I'm saying it is the invasion that was unnecessary.

Putin was convinced that Ukraine would shite it and roll over, so he launched his imperialist land grab. Now he's trapped himself in a nightmare of his own making. And all he can do is launch missiles into residential areas.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?

Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.

Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any

Not reluctant,  tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.

[Bristol Red Rover]

 

Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid?  Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own

And wth that, I think this discussion has run out over the edge of the boundary or reality and off into la-la-land.

Yet again, BST runs back to mammy "they won't give me my ball back!".
 "but Billy, it's under your arm. Is it just to complicated out there for you?"
" "

[Bristol Red Rover]

Yes, of course I'm saying it is the invasion that was unnecessary.

Putin was convinced that Ukraine would shite it and roll over, so he launched his imperialist land grab. Now he's trapped himself in a nightmare of his own making. And all he can do is launch missiles into residential areas.

You are the most clueless commentator on this bar none. I'll ask again,  Donetsk? Shells? Are you still saying that's Russia firing?

[Filo]

Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?

Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.

Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any

Not reluctant,  tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.

And how do you establish the least reliable maps?

Is those that don’t fit your pro Russian narrative?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?

Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.

Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any

Not reluctant,  tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.

And how do you establish the least reliable maps?

Is those that don’t fit your pro Russian narrative?

Observe the ones that are up to date more consistently with verifiable info,  eg geolocated pics and vids, and info in general. What do you do?

[Filo]

Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?

Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.

Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any

Not reluctant,  tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.

And how do you establish the least reliable maps?

Is those that don’t fit your pro Russian narrative?

Observe the ones that are up to date more consistently with verifiable info,  eg geolocated pics and vids, and info in general. What do you do?

Keep my eyes open and evaluate for myself, 120 rockets launched at Ukraine today, many on Kherson, the place where Russia said wanted to be Russian, lies and deflection all the time from Russia and their useful idiots 

[i_ateallthepies]

BBC News.

Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.

The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence.  "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said.  "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."

I reckon she's been reading this Forum.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid?  Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own

And wth that, I think this discussion has run out over the edge of the boundary or reality and off into la-la-land.

Yet again, BST runs back to mammy "they won't give me my ball back!".
 "but Billy, it's under your arm. Is it just to complicated out there for you?"
" "

Nope. It's because you're dribbling out the same absolute bullshit that Dmitri Medvedev Tweeted a few days ago.

I'm starting to think that you're so immersed in Kremlin propaganda that you no longer realise what you are doing.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BBC News.

Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.

The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence.  "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said.  "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."

I reckon she's been reading this Forum.

BBC article saying how all the info suggesting the Western narrative is at least not the whole story is Russian propahanda lies. Oh, my.... what a shocker 

[Bristol Red Rover]

Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid?  Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own

And wth that, I think this discussion has run out over the edge of the boundary or reality and off into la-la-land.

Yet again, BST runs back to mammy "they won't give me my ball back!".
 "but Billy, it's under your arm. Is it just to complicated out there for you?"
" "

Nope. It's because you're dribbling out the same absolute bullshit that Dmitri Medvedev Tweeted a few days ago.

I'm starting to think that you're so immersed in Kremlin propaganda that you no longer realise what you are doing.

Are you saying the aid isn't a loan? That the US doesn't have huge investments and possessions in Ukraine? What are you saying? Do try and spit it out old chumly.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

If you truly believe Poland is going to do a land grab on Western Ukraine, you're beyond help.

As I say, you're so immersed in the Kremlin line without even realising it, it's squirmingly embarrassing to watch.

[ncRover]

BBC News.

Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.

The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence.  "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said.  "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."

I reckon she's been reading this Forum.

Interesting line from her. I sometimes worry how much of the culture war stuff is perpetuated by Chinese / Russians. “Look how horrible the west is”.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BBC News.

Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.

The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence.  "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said.  "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."

I reckon she's been reading this Forum.

Interesting line from her. I sometimes worry how much of the culture war stuff is perpetuated by Chinese / Russians. “Look how horrible the west is”.

It's Russian foreign policy to effectively wage war on the West using our own addiction to online information. They spread discord and believable misinformation wherever they can. They directly interfere with elections (2016 US Election for example - Russia delivering hacked emails to Assange at exactly the best times to support Trump's campaign). But more insidiously, they try to blow smoke over every online discussion theme, by either pushing a direct Kremlin line, or pouring out so much credible misinformation that anyone online can find something that supports what they want to believe is true. The overall aim is to do what dictatorships have always done and what George Orwell was so terrified about - to destroy the concept of a working version of Objective Truth. Once that has gone, there's no holding power to account. You see it daily in this very thread.

Have a dig around on the Internet Research Agency.

[ncRover]

BBC News.

Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.

The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence.  "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said.  "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."

I reckon she's been reading this Forum.

Interesting line from her. I sometimes worry how much of the culture war stuff is perpetuated by Chinese / Russians. “Look how horrible the west is”.

It's Russian foreign policy to effectively wage war on the West using our own addiction to online information. They spread discord and believable misinformation wherever they can. They directly interfere with elections (2016 US Election for example - Russia delivering hacked emails to Assange at exactly the best times to support Trump's campaign). But more insidiously, they try to blow smoke over every online discussion theme, by either pushing a direct Kremlin line, or pouring out so much credible misinformation that anyone online can find something that supports what they want to believe is true. The overall aim is to do what dictatorships have always done and what George Orwell was so terrified about - to destroy the concept of a working version of Objective Truth. Once that has gone, there's no holding power to account. You see it daily in this very thread.

Have a dig around on the Internet Research Agency.

Shall do, thanks

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

If you truly believe Poland is going to do a land grab on Western Ukraine, you're beyond help.

As I say, you're so immersed in the Kremlin line without even realising it, it's squirmingly embarrassing to watch.

Here you go again like a sheet flapping in the wind. Get a grip. Stick to what is said rather than your own over excitable misinterpretation, and maybe you'll find ground beneath your feet. Or eat less smarties.

I didn't say Poland or Hungary or Romania would take a bite of the East of Ukraine. You made that up, its called disinformation, something you consistently specialise in. No idea why you think it's helpful to anyone? Insecurity? Anger? Too many smarties?

I said - and check it if you can focus that long - that Russia won't be wanting Western Ukraine, but other countries do fancy some, eg Poland which has a historical claim there. Not saying it "will" take it, but it, its people, the country,  most likely fancies it.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST - no comment about US aid being a loan?

Nothing about Ukraine's relentless shelling and murdering of civilians in Donetsk with artillery?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?

Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.

Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any

Not reluctant,  tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.

And how do you establish the least reliable maps?

Is those that don’t fit your pro Russian narrative?

Observe the ones that are up to date more consistently with verifiable info,  eg geolocated pics and vids, and info in general. What do you do?

Keep my eyes open and evaluate for myself, 120 rockets launched at Ukraine today, many on Kherson, the place where Russia said wanted to be Russian, lies and deflection all the time from Russia and their useful idiots 

Aren't you using maps to view changing frontlines? If so, which ones? Whose reports?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR

If you truly believe Poland is going to do a land grab on Western Ukraine, you're beyond help.

As I say, you're so immersed in the Kremlin line without even realising it, it's squirmingly embarrassing to watch.

Here you go again like a sheet flapping in the wind. Get a grip. Stick to what is said rather than your own over excitable misinterpretation, and maybe you'll find ground beneath your feet. Or eat less smarties.

I didn't say Poland or Hungary or Romania would take a bite of the East of Ukraine. You made that up, its called disinformation, something you consistently specialise in. No idea why you think it's helpful to anyone? Insecurity? Anger? Too many smarties?

I said - and check it if you can focus that long - that Russia won't be wanting Western Ukraine, but other countries do fancy some, eg Poland which has a historical claim there. Not saying it "will" take it, but it, its people, the country,  most likely fancies it.

You wrote: "Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does."

IF you don't intend to give the impression that you, like the Kremlin, think Ukraine will lose territory to Poland, don't write stupid stuff like that.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR

If you truly believe Poland is going to do a land grab on Western Ukraine, you're beyond help.

As I say, you're so immersed in the Kremlin line without even realising it, it's squirmingly embarrassing to watch.

Here you go again like a sheet flapping in the wind. Get a grip. Stick to what is said rather than your own over excitable misinterpretation, and maybe you'll find ground beneath your feet. Or eat less smarties.

I didn't say Poland or Hungary or Romania would take a bite of the East of Ukraine. You made that up, its called disinformation, something you consistently specialise in. No idea why you think it's helpful to anyone? Insecurity? Anger? Too many smarties?

I said - and check it if you can focus that long - that Russia won't be wanting Western Ukraine, but other countries do fancy some, eg Poland which has a historical claim there. Not saying it "will" take it, but it, its people, the country,  most likely fancies it.

You wrote: "Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does."

IF you don't intend to give the impression that you, like the Kremlin, think Ukraine will lose territory to Poland, don't write stupid stuff like that.

Yawn....
You doubt Poland would like that territory?

Oh,  yeah, forgot. Its not what the BBC are saying, or the edited comments of the EU are saying.

[wilts rover]

BBC News.

Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.

The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence.  "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said.  "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."

I reckon she's been reading this Forum.

Interesting line from her. I sometimes worry how much of the culture war stuff is perpetuated by Chinese / Russians. “Look how horrible the west is”.

All of it. Has been since 1948.

What you are witnessing now is exactly the same as the story I mentioned the other week about members of the British left denying the Hungarian version of the 1956 uprising but supporting the Soviet one - despite having all the information available to them.

There is no point arguing with a Putin propogandist. Whether or not they realise or admit to that is irrelevant, we know they are because we can read that what they are saying is exactly the same as he is saying - and what he wants them to write.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.

Do I really have to spell it out to you?

It appears I do.

1) You wrote "Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine?"

2) Immediately following that, you wrote, "I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does."

See, that, in standard English, seems to me, indisputably to say you think there may be existential threats to Ukraine as a viable nation state, and that Poland is one of them. And since the post you were replying to when you said that was talking about the immediate future, presumably, you think that Polish threat is present right now.

Except, you are saying you meant nothing of the sort. In which case, what the f**k were you prattling on about?

[Filo]

BRR.

Do I really have to spell it out to you?

It appears I do.

1) You wrote "Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine?"

2) Immediately following that, you wrote, "I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does."

See, that, in standard English, seems to me, indisputably to say you think there may be existential threats to Ukraine as a viable nation state, and that Poland is one of them. And since the post you were replying to when you said that was talking about the immediate future, presumably, you think that Polish threat is present right now.

Except, you are saying you meant nothing of the sort. In which case, what the f**k were you prattling on about?

Muddying the waters and deflection

It’s what his hero Putin and Russia do

[Nudga]

#GorsadKyiv