Ukraine

[Branton Red]

Have a listen to this I discovered today: -

www.youtube.com/watch?v=og0X3-lDQts

On Russia did the West and particularly the US miss a great opportunity in the 1990s?

I would say so.

Yeltsin wanted to bring in free-market capitalism but buggered up economic reforms so spectacularly the 90s were actually a period of depression for Russia.

That's the environment under which Putin came to power.

Where was the economic, financial and trade support from the West esp the US at this time?

Why was this not on the same scale as correctly provided to both West Germany and Japan after WW2?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've said for years THE biggest f**k up of the 20th century was the West not offering a massive Marshall Plan to Russia in 1991. Bring them into the fold like the original did for West Germany.

Trouble was, we had a minor recession and all eyes were on saving money in the West. John Major and Bill Clinton in charges when we needed proper statesman-like leaders with serious vision.

[wilts rover]

Thought this was good

[SydneyRover]

''Russia-Ukraine war live: head of Russian Orthodox church calls for temporary ceasefire''

He obviously hasn't heard of the russian windows program.

[normal rules]

I really enjoyed watching the documentary last night about Ukraine. Love the use of hand held drones to target enemy positions, but by hell do they need training around use of Mortars. What a waste of shells.

[Dutch Uncle]

''Russia-Ukraine war live: head of Russian Orthodox church calls for temporary ceasefire''

He obviously hasn't heard of the russian windows program.

This one 

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I really enjoyed watching the documentary last night about Ukraine. Love the use of hand held drones to target enemy positions, but by hell do they need training around use of Mortars. What a waste of shells.

Yes, I thought that too. Got to admire them though. Showing real ingenuity adapting drone technology

[ncRover]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/406fOiiKMU0ot5AS1AIwve?si=mcubCY3ITHOsPCwpNCq77Q

I know some of you might see it’s Rogan and just not listen,  but it’s very insightful. Also brilliant on why we need to support Ukraine and what the future holds for Russia (it isn’t good).

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye, aye.

General Surovikin has been replaced by the (previous failure) General Gerasimov as head of the Russian invasion.

Surovikin is the one who championed the disgusting, but potent policy of launching drone missiles at civilian infrastructure to try to freeze Ukraine out of the war.

Did he get too much of a threat to Putin? Or is Putin now bricking it about having authorised 6 months of textbook war crimes? Or has Surovikin run out of drones? Or is Putin reverting back to the General he first trusted to run an aggressive land campaign? Maybe planning for a Spring offensive with all his new conscripts?

Whichever, this is big, big news.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yet more Russian missile strikes today on critical military infrastructure carefully disguised as civilian apartment blocks.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Still waiting on your condemnation on Ukraine attacks on civilians.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The effects of sending of main battle tanks from UK and Germany will be interesting to observe both in how they perform and the effect on Russian's support for the war.

[normal rules]

Russian military top brass have suggested that sending MBT’s will cross the red line, so to speak.
What about the HIMARS then? If that doesn’t cross red lines, then it seems Russian warnings are hollow rhetoric.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Russian military top brass have suggested that sending MBT’s will cross the red line, so to speak.
What about the HIMARS then? If that doesn’t cross red lines, then it seems Russian warnings are hollow rhetoric.

It seems a minor escalation from NATO,  partly as the numbers are so small. I think the red line talk is predictable, just on par with what is said from both sides. The main point is that statement is highlighting this for the Russian public - having German tanks up against Russians is especially emotive for obvious reasons, though seeing NATO as upping their input in any way will increase the Russian public's support for the war.

[Filo]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

[Bristol Red Rover]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.

However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?

[Filo]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.

However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?

The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia

[normal rules]

It will be nice to see challengers taking out a few Russian tanks. From what I’ve seen, the Ukrainian use of mortars is none too effective.
If my memory serves, the 120mm shells can hit their target from about 3 km out. In fact I think it holds the distance record for a tank on tank hit. 4km in the gulf war.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.

However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?

The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia

There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU,  were fully behind fuelling a war,  Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.

To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.

[Filo]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.

However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?

The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia

There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU,  were fully behind fuelling a war,  Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.

To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.

And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?

[wilts rover]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.

However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?

The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia

There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU,  were fully behind fuelling a war,  Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.

To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.

In December Putin began building up troops on Ukraine's border. He insisted in no way were these troops preparing for an invasion of Ukraine but were 'only' conducting exercises. He continued to insist this until the day they invaded.

He also insisted it was a 'special military operation'. In which other conflict does bombing civilian apartment blocks, schools and hospitals equate to 'military operations'?

To see it your way is the arsonist holding a can of petrol and a box of matches insisting he was just stopping for a smoke.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.

However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?

The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia

There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU,  were fully behind fuelling a war,  Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.

To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.

And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?

Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022

[Bristol Red Rover]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.

However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?

The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia

There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU,  were fully behind fuelling a war,  Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.

To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.

In December Putin began building up troops on Ukraine's border. He insisted in no way were these troops preparing for an invasion of Ukraine but were 'only' conducting exercises. He continued to insist this until the day they invaded.

He also insisted it was a 'special military operation'. In which other conflict does bombing civilian apartment blocks, schools and hospitals equate to 'military operations'?

To see it your way is the arsonist holding a can of petrol and a box of matches insisting he was just stopping for a smoke.

Of course no one is going to say they're about to do anything militarily.

There's always mistakes in targeting. Ukraine at least as guilty. Tho remember Ukraine's made a habit of hanging out in schools and hospitals, and parking tanks in amongst civilians, as well as taking human shields. No doubt Russia did this too, but seems it was a very strong tactic from Ukraine's - eg Amnesty Int.

Your simili makes no sense.

[normal rules]

AS90 on their way to Ukraine also.
They could be a real game changer.
With good scoping/Intel/ targeting, these things can take out Russian armour and artillery from 20 plus kilometres away.
I hope they are being provided with enough shells.
They can fire three rounds every 10 seconds.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!

And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.

However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?

The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia

There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU,  were fully behind fuelling a war,  Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.

To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.

And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?

Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022

Help me out here cos I've had flu ad I'm not on top of my game.

In mid Feb 2022, Putin had amassed a couple of hundred thousand troops and several thousand tanks on the Ukraine border.

Putin had just (illegally under international law) recognised as independent, two regions of Ukraine that he had already had troops in for 8 years.

A few months ago, he had given a fanatical speech in which he denied that Ukraine had any right to exist as an independent state.

In the UK Govt report of the call that you've just pasted, these words appear, "The leaders agreed that the West needed to support Ukraine in the event of an invasion but should continue to pursue a diplomatic solution until the last possible second."

You appear to be telling us that Boris Johnson put a stop to the diplomatic process (posting those precise words as your evidence) and that Ukraine "chose" to be invaded.

I'm really struggling to join up the dots here. Can you fill in the gaps that are obviously clear to you, but which I'm having trouble with?

[normal rules]

I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?

[wilts rover]

I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?

He was counting on a cold winter and EU states being forced to push Ukraine into surrender to acquire Russian gas. Doesn't look like that is going to happen now due to mild weather & good planning.

I see also he is preparing to widen conscription to older age groups. Never a good sign for them or their families. Spring campaign do you reckon?

[ncRover]

I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?

He was counting on a cold winter and EU states being forced to push Ukraine into surrender to acquire Russian gas. Doesn't look like that is going to happen now due to mild weather & good planning.

I see also he is preparing to widen conscription to older age groups. Never a good sign for them or their families. Spring campaign do you reckon?

Yes. Listen to the first part of the podcast I posted it covers all this in detail.

Putin’s list of allies is comical, says it all.

[normal rules]

I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?

I don’t consider -20c mild. Which is has been down to over Xmas new year in Luhansk. The next two weeks not so good either. Day time temps not much above freezing with -9 overnight.
Good for moving heavy artillery. Bad for keeping warm.
He was counting on a cold winter and EU states being forced to push Ukraine into surrender to acquire Russian gas. Doesn't look like that is going to happen now due to mild weather & good planning.

I see also he is preparing to widen conscription to older age groups. Never a good sign for them or their families. Spring campaign do you reckon?

[BillyStubbsTears]

NR. Putin's calculations were based on Western and Central Europe having a cold winter.

He gambled that the EU populations and Governments were soft. If he cut the gas off and they got cold, they'd give in, stop supplying Ukraine and force Ukraine to capitulate to the Kremlin.

It is going down in history as one of THE biggest wrong decisions by a major leader, certainly since WWII. The European people and Governments have found a resolve and discipline that Putin didn't think they had. And as a result, there is absolutely no good outcome for Russia. Even if Ukrainian defences collapsed tomorrow, Europe is never going back to buying vast quantities of Russian oil. So Putin has f**ked up his country's biggest export market.

It's quite ironic when you think about it. His psy-ops were at least partly responsible for the UK choosing to f**k up its relations with its own largest export market. That was a big win for Putin, because it weakened both the UK and the EU. But the stupid Kitson has now done it to himself, on steroids.

I've said for a while that I don't buy this idea of Putin as a genius strategist. He's a low-grade thug, who has been clever enough to pick weak enemies in the past. That seemed to give him an inflated opinion of his own infallibility. But when it was really put to the test, he's f**ked up on a historic scale.