Ukraine

[Bristol Red Rover]

Nc

That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.

It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.

The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)

Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.

A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.

It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.

Nevertheless, having been drawn into a war with proxy opponents using Slavs as cannon fodder, they are winning, taking lands from the USA,  EU, and NATO. Who's the loser?

[SydneyRover]

With all due respect BRR I guess that would be you

[ncRover]

Nc

That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.

It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.

The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)

Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.

A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.

It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.

Thanks but I can’t read it as I’m not subscribed

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nc

That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.

It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.

The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)

Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.

A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.

It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.

Nevertheless, having been drawn into a war with proxy opponents using Slavs as cannon fodder, they are winning, taking lands from the USA,  EU, and NATO. Who's the loser?

In the list of quite disgracefully stupid comments you've made in this thread, this really stands out.

Drawn into a war...

Taking land from the EU, NATO and USA.

Is this what the tankie Russia fanboys are telling themselves is happening here?

[BillyStubbsTears]

And here we go again.

The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.

Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.

There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.

He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.

Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.

All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.

[Bristol Red Rover]

With all due respect BRR I guess that would be you

Such a charmer 

[Bristol Red Rover]

Nc

That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.

It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.

The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)

Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.

A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.

It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.

Nevertheless, having been drawn into a war with proxy opponents using Slavs as cannon fodder, they are winning, taking lands from the USA,  EU, and NATO. Who's the loser?

In the list of quite disgracefully stupid comments you've made in this thread, this really stands out.

Drawn into a war...

Taking land from the EU, NATO and USA.

Is this what the tankie Russia fanboys are telling themselves is happening here?

Intrigued as to where you're getting info about this going the USAs way?

[normal rules]

And here we go again.

The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.

Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.

There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.

He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.

Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.

All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.

Whilst I generally agree BST, it’s not Medvedev we have to worry about. It’s Putin. He himself has said a world without Russia is not worth living in. Add to that his suspected ailing health, and his “rat in the corner” upbringing means some caution is advisable. Think about the increase in firepower Ukraine has being given since they were invaded. First it was hand held anti tank rockets, then armoured vehicles, then air defence systems and recently guided multi missile launchers. With tanks on the horizon, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the “ fight fire with fire” escalation is going. If Russian troops were pushed right out of Ukraine, do we think Zelensky would end it there? Or would he use his new found land army of Western weapons to strike Russian soil? Because if he did, then all bets are off.

[Dutch Uncle]

And here we go again.

The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.

Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.

There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.

He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.

Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.

All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.

Whilst I generally agree BST, it’s not Medvedev we have to worry about. It’s Putin. He himself has said a world without Russia is not worth living in. Add to that his suspected ailing health, and his “rat in the corner” upbringing means some caution is advisable. Think about the increase in firepower Ukraine has being given since they were invaded. First it was hand held anti tank rockets, then armoured vehicles, then air defence systems and recently guided multi missile launchers. With tanks on the horizon, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the “ fight fire with fire” escalation is going. If Russian troops were pushed right out of Ukraine, do we think Zelensky would end it there? Or would he use his new found land army of Western weapons to strike Russian soil? Because if he did, then all bets are off.

NR first of all I don't think Zelensky would even think of attacking Russia and lose all moral high ground

Second, if he did I fully expect NATO and the West to stop all resupply and then he has nothing

[BillyStubbsTears]

Precisely DU.

Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Precisely DU.

Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.

You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks,  rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.

[SydneyRover]

Precisely DU.

Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.

And of course any toe over the line would bar the Ukraine from joining Nato for maybe ever, the more countries that joining NATO would reduce the threat of member countries getting stuck into each other including the US.

[ncRover]

BRR would you rather live in USA or Russia?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Precisely DU.

Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.

You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks,  rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.

As stupid, intellectually bone idle comparisons go, this takes the biscuit.

Your mind seems to operate in a mode of "Let's ignore what is actually happening, and instead say do whataboutery on a ridiculous hypothetical."

There is no threat to Russia as a state in this war.

There IS a threat to Russia as the Great Power that Putin wants Russia to be.

Your hypothetical could never come about for numerous reasons, not least that the USA IS a Great Power, and one that Mexico WANTS to have close relations with because it benefits them.

Russia ISN'T a Great Power. It wants to play at being by brutally bullying those around it. Which is why Ukraine needs and wants protection.

The fact that I have to spell this out to you shows how addled your Kremlin fanboy head is.

[wilts rover]

Precisely DU.

Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.

You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks,  rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.

Err but that's exactly what Putin is going to get by moving Russia's border westward? And what he has achieved on the northern border. We want to protest against NATO by going closer to them - and you call other people naive!!!

[wilts rover]

And here we go again.

The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.

Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.

There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.

He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.

Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.

All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.

Whilst I generally agree BST, it’s not Medvedev we have to worry about. It’s Putin. He himself has said a world without Russia is not worth living in. Add to that his suspected ailing health, and his “rat in the corner” upbringing means some caution is advisable. Think about the increase in firepower Ukraine has being given since they were invaded. First it was hand held anti tank rockets, then armoured vehicles, then air defence systems and recently guided multi missile launchers. With tanks on the horizon, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the “ fight fire with fire” escalation is going. If Russian troops were pushed right out of Ukraine, do we think Zelensky would end it there? Or would he use his new found land army of Western weapons to strike Russian soil? Because if he did, then all bets are off.

You - as much as anyone on here (aplogies Dutch) - know that conducting a defensive operation is totally different to conducting an offensive one. No way is Zelensky going over the border - because he doesn't, & wont, have the supplies or logistic capability to do it. A tank is only as useful as the fuel tanker that's following it.

[Colin C No.3]

9 European nations have promised Ukraine more support after meeting on Thursday in Estonia.

UK - 600 Brimstone missiles.
Denmark - 19 French made Caesar self propelled howitzer cannons.
Estonia - howitzers, ammunition, support vehicles & anti-tank grenade launchers.
Latvia - Stinger air-defence systems, two helicopters & drones.
Lithuania - anti-air craft guns & two helicopters.
Poland - S60 anti-aircraft guns with 70,000 pieces of ammunition.
Czech Republic - produce further large calibre ammunition, howitzers & APC’s.

Once Germany sends (& it will) its Leopard tanks to Ukraine the Russians will be pushed out of Ukraine & Putin will ‘disappear’.

[Filo]

I read somewhere Poland wants to give them F-16’s, the soviet era MIGS won’t stand a chance if they do

[normal rules]

And here we go again.

The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.

Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.

There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.

He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.

Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.

All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.

Whilst I generally agree BST, it’s not Medvedev we have to worry about. It’s Putin. He himself has said a world without Russia is not worth living in. Add to that his suspected ailing health, and his “rat in the corner” upbringing means some caution is advisable. Think about the increase in firepower Ukraine has being given since they were invaded. First it was hand held anti tank rockets, then armoured vehicles, then air defence systems and recently guided multi missile launchers. With tanks on the horizon, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the “ fight fire with fire” escalation is going. If Russian troops were pushed right out of Ukraine, do we think Zelensky would end it there? Or would he use his new found land army of Western weapons to strike Russian soil? Because if he did, then all bets are off.

NR first of all I don't think Zelensky would even think of attacking Russia and lose all moral high ground

Second, if he did I fully expect NATO and the West to stop all resupply and then he has nothing

Here’s the thing though, to suppress Russian troops beyond Ukraine’s borders would involve attacks over the border. And to be honest, there have already been attacks behind enemy lines so to speak .

[Dutch Uncle]

NR I was referring to a ground offensive attack with the aim of taking some Russian territory, not strikes against military airbases or critical supply bridges which can be seen as a measure taken for defensive reasons

[BillyStubbsTears]

I think it IS very, very important that there are no strikes on Russian territory using NATO-provided weapons. To me, that would cross a very serious line. Russian forces on the territory of another country are fair game for attack by NATO-provided weapons, whatever blustering b*llocks comes piping out of the Kremlin. Soviet soldiers were killed by NATO-provided weapons in Afghanistan. Just as Americans were killed by Russian-provided weapons in Vietnam. But using NATO weapons to attack Russian territory would be a massive escalation. I'm guessing the NATO Government's have said to Zelensky, "You even think of doing that and you are on your own pal."

[Dutch Uncle]

I think it IS very, very important that there are no strikes on Russian territory using NATO-provided weapons. To me, that would cross a very serious line. Russian forces on the territory of another country are fair game for attack by NATO-provided weapons, whatever blustering b*llocks comes piping out of the Kremlin. Soviet soldiers were killed by NATO-provided weapons in Afghanistan. Just as Americans were killed by Russian-provided weapons in Vietnam. But using NATO weapons to attack Russian territory would be a massive escalation. I'm guessing the NATO Government's have said to Zelensky, "You even think of doing that and you are on your own pal."

Completely agree with that BST

[normal rules]

NR I was referring to a ground offensive attack with the aim of taking some Russian territory, not strikes against military airbases or critical supply bridges which can be seen as a measure taken for defensive reasons

Ok , let’s wait and see what happens when British as90 are bombarding Russian logistics over the border on a regular basis.
There will be a tipping point in future when western weapons will overcome anything conventional Russia respond with. Collectively NATO can bring a lot more to bear than Russia. It’s a simple numbers game. Providing enough Ukrainians troops can survive.
At that point Putin will be cornered. On the verge of actual military defeat. Pushed back into his own land. A wounded animal. Pounded by western weaponry.
This will happen.
And if he is still alive and in power, then at this point, we should all get very concerned.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR would you rather live in USA or Russia?

Neither.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Precisely DU.

Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.

You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks,  rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.

As stupid, intellectually bone idle comparisons go, this takes the biscuit.

Your mind seems to operate in a mode of "Let's ignore what is actually happening, and instead say do whataboutery on a ridiculous hypothetical."

There is no threat to Russia as a state in this war.

There IS a threat to Russia as the Great Power that Putin wants Russia to be.

Your hypothetical could never come about for numerous reasons, not least that the USA IS a Great Power, and one that Mexico WANTS to have close relations with because it benefits them.

Russia ISN'T a Great Power. It wants to play at being by brutally bullying those around it. Which is why Ukraine needs and wants protection.

The fact that I have to spell this out to you shows how addled your Kremlin fanboy head is.

For one who rigidly sticks to one perspective and garners all he can in every way with bizarre similies - including many times from WW2, you are 'avin a hypocritical laff. Not to mention rarely replying to questions and then whining about others not answering his particular points.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Precisely DU.

Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.

You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks,  rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.

Err but that's exactly what Putin is going to get by moving Russia's border westward? And what he has achieved on the northern border. We want to protest against NATO by going closer to them - and you call other people naive!!!

Duh - taking Ukraine keeps NATO further from many other parts of Russia, and lets NATO - the US and it's many ass lickers - know there is a limit to its attempts at geopolitical expansionism.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I haven't compared this war to the detail of WWII action or political situation.

I have noted, correctly, that this is the biggest and most destructive war in Europe since WWII.

Regarding answering your questions, I will not get dragged into false equivalences between an aggressive, invading force with a history of terrorising urban areas, launching indiscriminate missiles at civilian areas hundreds of miles from a war front; and a force defending its own land against an invasion inevitably causing damage and casualties on its own land at the battlefront itself.

The fact that YOU try to draw equivalence between those two days everything about your take. I'm not engaging with you on that, because frankly it disgusts me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And once again. No NATO boot will ever step an inch onto Russian territory while Russia has 7000 nukes.

The fact that you repeat this see-through excuse for Russian aggression is beneath contempt.

[Bristol Red Rover]

9 European nations have promised Ukraine more support after meeting on Thursday in Estonia.

UK - 600 Brimstone missiles.
Denmark - 19 French made Caesar self propelled howitzer cannons.
Estonia - howitzers, ammunition, support vehicles & anti-tank grenade launchers.
Latvia - Stinger air-defence systems, two helicopters & drones.
Lithuania - anti-air craft guns & two helicopters.
Poland - S60 anti-aircraft guns with 70,000 pieces of ammunition.
Czech Republic - produce further large calibre ammunition, howitzers & APC’s.

Once Germany sends (& it will) its Leopard tanks to Ukraine the Russians will be pushed out of Ukraine & Putin will ‘disappear’.

That is not going to make one jot of a difference to the outcome.

Apart from the numbers there being barely significant, Ukraine is increasingly looking like Steptoandsonia with a hotpotch of mainly cast off equipment, with troops being barely trained in their use, where logistic nightmares of maintenance and co-ordination create a situation where these gifts/loans will just as likely set them back as give any benefit.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I read somewhere Poland wants to give them F-16’s, the soviet era MIGS won’t stand a chance if they do

The problem is first training, second maintenance and logistics, third that Russia has a superior air defence, and note Ukraine's is broken. F-16s will barely be able to get near enough to any front line.