Ukraine

[BillyStubbsTears]

We'll that's good to see evidence-based debating still surviving in here.

[normal rules]

Only just noticed this. According to the Ukraine papers leak there are at least 50 UK Special Forces troops operating in Ukraine.

Is it legal for the government to deploy UK troops in a war zone without the consent of Parliament?

https://declassifieduk.org/u-s-intel-leak-reveals-50-elite-british-troops-in-ukraine/

I’d be more surprised and a little disappointed if UKSF were not in Ukraine.
Something the UK govt would never ever confirm of course.
You only have to look at some of the more successful targetted strikes.
The story of Ukrainian special forces who destroyed as many as 20 Russian aircraft at Saki air base in Crimea. Classic SAS tactic. Get in behind enemy lines, at a time and place where the enemy least expects you. Cause the most damage in as little time as possible and disappear back into the night. I have little doubt this was at least directed and instructed by UKSF, and possibly even involved them. Backed by remote UK based Intel support.

If British troops are involved in combat or sabotage operations against Russian troops, especially IN Russia, either in or out of uniform, that is an act of war. Which requires assent by Parliament NOT the government.

And Johnson said explicity that British troops would not be deployed to Ukraine but would stay within NATO territory.

Doesn't matter whether you or anyone else think they should be there. You are playing with WW3 here - without Parliament getting a say in it.

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/uk-war-will-go-russia-nato-ukraine-where-british-troops-deployed-explained-1492266

I understand fully the ramifications of the presence of uk troops in Ukraine. IF ever proven. Or any other countries spec forces for that matter.
But Clandestine Ops is what SF do.
Hidden activities. Secret deployments. Un reported. Un noticed by the general population. Un known ops. Authorised at the very highest level. And known about by very very few people.
It’s how they came to be in the first place.
No publicity. No fanfares. Maximum damage with no trace left they were even there .
They are damn good at it. It’s part of what makes them “special”
But no govt, especially the British one, would ever admit to this taking place. Johnson’s comments about there not being any British troops deployed there is exactly what I’d expect govt to say.
Ukraine has provided the perfect arena for them to do their business.
I have a very strong suspicion they will be there. A very small unit, such as some of those that form the “Increment” could do a hell of a lot of harm to the Russian war effort.

[Sprotyrover]

I can’t bet that the US let a 21 year old idiot have access to such classified information, I really do believe that this is Black Ops, an attempt to get Putin to escalate the conflict so we can all enjoy a Nuclear winter or two

[Sprotyrover]

And the US has previous convictions for doing this ie Iraq.

[normal rules]

I can’t bet that the US let a 21 year old idiot have access to such classified information, I really do believe that this is Black Ops, an attempt to get Putin to escalate the conflict so we can all enjoy a Buclear winter or two

The many facets of conflict in the 21st c mean that sadly, pretty much anything is possible.
Is Buclear a biological armageddon.?

[Bristol Red Rover]

We'll that's good to see evidence-based debating still surviving in here.

BST,  do you see how Russia has been progressively provoked whereby they opted to invade? I'm not asking you to agree with any justification for invasion, but do you understand the provocation?

[idler]

BRR, don’t you think that the Ukrainian people have a right to decide who they want to trade with and form alliances with?
Russia under Putin and his cronies has hardly been a shining example of democracy and caring for the common people.
They see a brighter future being closer to the democratic Western Europeans. Maybe Putin is more frightened that the Russian people seeing Ukraine have a much better life with close ties to NATO countries  will cause jealousy and unrest among his own people, undermining his power base.

[Filo]

Top and bottom line is Putin is a Soviet dinosaur, hankering for a dictorial past and domineering his neighbours

[i_ateallthepies]

BRR, don’t you think that the Ukrainian people have a right to decide who they want to trade with and form alliances with?
Russia under Putin and his cronies has hardly been a shining example of democracy and caring for the common people.
They see a brighter future being closer to the democratic Western Europeans. Maybe Putin is more frightened that the Russian people seeing Ukraine have a much better life with close ties to NATO countries  will cause jealousy and unrest among his own people, undermining his power base.

Very good point, idler.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR, don’t you think that the Ukrainian people have a right to decide who they want to trade with and form alliances with?
Russia under Putin and his cronies has hardly been a shining example of democracy and caring for the common people.
They see a brighter future being closer to the democratic Western Europeans. Maybe Putin is more frightened that the Russian people seeing Ukraine have a much better life with close ties to NATO countries  will cause jealousy and unrest among his own people, undermining his power base.

Interesting point and question. I'm not pro Russia here,  just mainly putting across a perspective that is less moulded by Western media, which is steeped in propaganda that benefits Western elites. So....

First, take a look around at the poverty even in this country. The economic bias towards the haves and the disregard of the have nots is criminal. The cultural poverty is dire too. Is Russia better? No, tho it is different. The important question is what about Ukraine. It's long been ruled by elites, possibly less subtle than we have. Maybe less subtle than Russia too. It has been a mess for a long time. Joining NATO and the EU is yet more propagandic icing on a tasteless cake. The very same gangsters ruling Ukraine are the ones who would benefit, who have benefitted, from Western entanglement - them and the US gangsters who already own a lot of Ukraine. A lot of the aid that's gone over there has been syphoned off. Ordinary people are stuffed. They were before the war, now many times more, and maimed,  and dead. Some might prefer the west, some the east, others a mix.

[Filo]

BRR, don’t you think that the Ukrainian people have a right to decide who they want to trade with and form alliances with?
Russia under Putin and his cronies has hardly been a shining example of democracy and caring for the common people.
They see a brighter future being closer to the democratic Western Europeans. Maybe Putin is more frightened that the Russian people seeing Ukraine have a much better life with close ties to NATO countries  will cause jealousy and unrest among his own people, undermining his power base.

Interesting point and question. I'm not pro Russia here,  just mainly putting across a perspective that is less moulded by Western media, which is steeped in propaganda that benefits Western elites. So....

First, take a look around at the poverty even in this country. The economic bias towards the haves and the disregard of the have nots is criminal. The cultural poverty is dire too. Is Russia better? No, tho it is different. The important question is what about Ukraine. It's long been ruled by elites, possibly less subtle than we have. Maybe less subtle than Russia too. It has been a mess for a long time. Joining NATO and the EU is yet more propagandic icing on a tasteless cake. The very same gangsters ruling Ukraine are the ones who would benefit, who have benefitted, from Western entanglement - them and the US gangsters who already own a lot of Ukraine. A lot of the aid that's gone over there has been syphoned off. Ordinary people are stuffed. They were before the war, now many times more, and maimed,  and dead. Some might prefer the west, some the east, others a mix.

A lot of words without addressing the original question Idler asked you

[Bristol Red Rover]

Filo, you're right, I should have made that clear. Yes they do, just like Brits have the right to choose their leaders,  and their allegiances. Don't you think the lies they are fed in this, the bus for example, make the choosing not free? Manipulation, dishonesty,  propaganda, kill choice.

[idler]

The choice the Ukrainians have made is that they have chosen to defend their homeland and give up their lives for it.
As for lies, how many Russian soldiers have died thinking that they were on a special military operation as Putin called it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

More evidence of just what barbarians the Russians are.

They've lost 100,000 men trying to take Bakhmut. Now they are about to be pushed out of the region, so they torch the remains of the city with white phosphorus.

https://twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1654563909804728322

They will be beaten. They know that. And their response is to leave whole areas destroyed.

[Filo]

Russia clearly targeting Civilian areas, trying to terrorise the civilian population into submission, cowards the lot of them, I can’t wait for the Ukrainian offensive to rout the Russian army and Wagner

[Bristol Red Rover]

Russia clearly targeting Civilian areas, trying to terrorise the civilian population into submission, cowards the lot of them, I can’t wait for the Ukrainian offensive to rout the Russian army and Wagner

Where are Russians targeting civilian areas? What about Ukraines targeting Donetsk, daily, for several years?

[Bristol Red Rover]

More evidence of just what barbarians the Russians are.

They've lost 100,000 men trying to take Bakhmut. Now they are about to be pushed out of the region, so they torch the remains of the city with white phosphorus.

https://twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1654563909804728322

They will be beaten. They know that. And their response is to leave whole areas destroyed.

100k, is that what you read in the Beano? How many Ukraine troops dead there?
Ukraines been blowing up buildings as they retreat. Well documented by themselves.

[wilts rover]

News being reported by Russian sources that Ukranian troops have broken through Russian defences in several places and Russians in danger of being surrounded unless they pull back. Presumably this means the Ukranian offensive has just started - guss we shall see soon:

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1656748785492455448

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's interesting to see the limitations of US tech - Patriots, HIMARS, and F-16s if they dare let them go to war? For sure there's been issues with the Russians, but as time goes on, they have got the upper hand with their kit, upper hand over NATO, not just Ukraine. Upper hand with tactics too.

Still to see how the NATO tanks perform. A couple of dead Challengers reported, slung into a vulnerable attack, but early days there.

[ncRover]

Where’s the big Russian offensive this year? Was expecting it once the winter ended. Is he short on bodies? Haven’t followed it too closely.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Did I just read that Russia has the upper hand on kit and tactics?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Where’s the big Russian offensive this year? Was expecting it once the winter ended. Is he short on bodies? Haven’t followed it too closely.

The Russian "offensive" is just continuing as was. Taking out Ukraine manpower and machines has been the aim. Hence the slaughter of Ukraines in Atremivsk (Bakhmut when In Ukraine) has been perfect for that plan. Deffo at a manpower cost to the Wagner, but less than Ukraines.

Russia has gained another 100 to 150k troops, on top of the previous 350k. Most apparently waiting for any Ukraine attack in the south. Makes sense to let them attack as will be more expensive for them that way. They are under pressure from NATO to attack, not sure its a wise move.

[Ldr]

Did I just read that Russia has the upper hand on kit and tactics?

Nice that Comical Ali has found something to fill the time since the Iraq war I guess BST

[wilts rover]

The spokesman of the Ukrainian Air Force, Yuriy Ignat, says that Ukraine will receive several dozen F-16s.

He also confirmed that they will be transferred to Ukraine in squadrons (12+ planes) at a time and that no donor country will make any individual transfers.

Guess we will soon see how Russia's 'superior kit' fairs against them.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1660369091717201920

[TonySoprano]

What I get get by head round is how does it end ?

Regime change in Russia?
Nuclear war ?
Ukraine giving up crimea and donbass?
Russia giving up crimea and donbass?

All seem as unlikely as each other

[BillyStubbsTears]

Regime change in Russia. That's how it ends. When it turns out the Emperor has no clothes.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Did I just read that Russia has the upper hand on kit and tactics?

Looking at most of your comments, including today's, Ukraine's propoganda kit is working well on some green matter.

[wilts rover]

What I get get by head round is how does it end ?

Regime change in Russia?
Nuclear war ?
Ukraine giving up crimea and donbass?
Russia giving up crimea and donbass?

All seem as unlikely as each other

All wars end in a negotiated peace. The fighting gives you more leverage as to gaining what you want in the negotiations.

Only Putin can end this one - because only he started it. What does he want and how long will he carry on in an attempt to get it? And how long will the Russian people let him try? Your answer to these questions is as good as mine.

[wilts rover]

First confirmed action of local Russian anti-Putin milita/freedom groups, the Russian Volunteer Corps and the Freedom of Russia Legion, attacking & defeating Russian troops in Russia.

That was how the end of WW1 began in Russia.

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1660722675331768338

https://www.newsweek.com/putin-defectors-freedom-russia-legion-ukraine-belgorod-war-1801786

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/freedom-of-russia-legion-invasion-belgorod-2357297

[Filo]

Wagner are withdrawing before they get surrounded, the Russian troops replacing them will surrender or die