Remind me again why we left the EU

[River Don]

Remember that, in political terms, Remain v Leave was Tory on Tory! No one else called for a referendum.

But the bigger point surely has to be this: It is the Conservative Party, and the Conservative Party alone, that has brought us to this point.

BB when you talk about winners and losers, it was never going to be you or I. It was only ever about the guy in Number 10!

I would again make the point, that the Tory government didn't actually want a referendum at all.

When a referendum was called, the sole purpose was to secure the UK firmly within the EU.

The demand for a referendum came from outside the Tory party and in the end, they could not resist that demand. It was something a large part of the public wanted and it was a question the EU needed to have resolved.

Calling a referendum then was entirely legitimate. The way the whole thing was handled though, left a lot to be desired.

And the guy in no10?

He had to fall on his sword. His political career in tatters.

[SydneyRover]

So you are saying a big part of the reason why foreign criminals came to the UK was because of the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010?

Please point out where I wrote anyyhing of the sort bb, getting a bit desperate?

Sydney, maybe a big part of the reason the UK voted out was that it was becoming like Australia used to be, a penal colony for foreign criminals, the difference being that foreign criminals volunteered to come to the UK.

And maybe the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010 to catch criminals played a big part in it.


Why does your argument resemble a colander bb ................. Australia was claimed under the false pretext of terra nullius therefore all those that came from the British Isles were foreigners/invaders, government officials, soldiers, british convicts all were one and the same.

''Sydney, maybe a big part of the reason the UK voted out was that it was becoming like Australia used to be, a penal colony for foreign criminals, the difference being that foreign criminals volunteered to come to the UK''

So ...... because you and others that subscribe to the tory handmaiden's media and believe the same vote leavers ignored the massive lies printed about the NHS and Turkish immigration? and voted out mainly because of foreign criminals coming to Britiain yet you haven't got any proof to support whether these people were criminals before they arrived or whether they were actually born in the UK or where the hell they are supposed to be from?

A drink for anyone that can proove they have seen belton and bb in the same room 

[Bentley Bullet]

BB to Sydney: "Sydney, maybe a big part of the reason the UK voted out was that it was becoming like Australia used to be, a penal colony for foreign criminals, the difference being that foreign criminals volunteered to come to the UK."

Sydney to BB: "And maybe the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010 to catch criminals played a big part in it."

BB to Sydney: "So you are saying a big part of the reason why foreign criminals came to the UK was because of the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010?"

Sydney to BB: "Please point out where I wrote anything of the sort bb, getting a bit desperate?"

 

[selby]

The remain leadership, Farage's bitch's.

[BigH]

RD, the Conservative Government at the time may not have wanted a referendum, but the offer to provide one was theirs alone; a response to the threat that UKIP posed to many Conservative seats.

None of the other major political parties proposed a referendum (UKIP may have been vocal but it wasn't a major political party). Nor was there an overwhelming public clamour for a referendum in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales or any of the major cities in England.

It was, in short, a device dreamt up by the Conservative Party to try and shore up their vote in the 2015 election.

The rest, as they say, is history.

And the only real winner in all of this is the current incumbent of no 10.

[River Don]

H,

It may have been a 'device' to shore up the Tory vote but that's just democracy in action.

The Issue of the EU had risen from nowhere to be the key issue in elections. What was the Tory party supposed to do? Ignore it and accept defeat at a future general election? They had to respond.

What's more the 'device' was supposed to reiterate the UK commitment to the EU. It definitely wasn't designed as a mechanism to bring about Brexit.

In this case, our flawed democratic system was forcing an issue to be addressed. The system was actually working.

[selby]

 The EU leadership are making political decisions on the Astra vaccine that will cost lives trying to deflect criticism away from their poor management of the situation.
  The incidence of forming a blood clot is much higher taking the Pill yet they stop the vaccinations.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD.
I disagree on the purpose of the referendum. It was promised in 2013 for one reason alone. Cameron was worried about losing the 2015 election because UKIP was attracting Tory voters. He never actually expected to have to call it after 2015 because he expected to lose 2015 or at best be in Coalition with the LDs again who would block it. Then when he DID have to call it, Johnson chose to support Leave which he never believed in. Johnson never expected to win but he saw it as a path to No10 by being the darling of the massively Europhobic Tory membership.

The whole thing was about politics and personal ambition on the Right. What was best for the country was never on the agenda.

[River Don]

Im not disputing Cameron had to offer a referendum to win back UKIP supporters but again, isn't that just democracy in action?

The political calculations may not have worked out as expected...

But t would have been very strange for the Tory party to risk defeat at a general election in order to shield the EU from British democratic opinion.

[drfchound]

BB to Sydney: "Sydney, maybe a big part of the reason the UK voted out was that it was becoming like Australia used to be, a penal colony for foreign criminals, the difference being that foreign criminals volunteered to come to the UK."

Sydney to BB: "And maybe the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010 to catch criminals played a big part in it."

BB to Sydney: "So you are saying a big part of the reason why foreign criminals came to the UK was because of the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010?"

Sydney to BB: "Please point out where I wrote anything of the sort bb, getting a bit desperate?"

 

LoL.
He will have to try to put that one down.
Cant wait.

[Filo]

I see the gang is out playing tonight

[wilts rover]

Brexit was a project designed by foreign billionaires to use British millonaires to turn the UK into a deregulated tax haven and money laundering centre, whilst weakening the EU at the same time.

They did this by persuading the British public that the problems casued by the Tories austerity policy were the fault of the EU.

It was siezed on by the British right as an opportunity to remake the country in their world view - which they have done successfully by siezing control of the Tory Party and booting out moral objectors such as Winston Churchill's grandson and Margaret Thatcher's private secretary and speechwriter.

Whatever you think you voted for - that's what you got and gave to the rest of us.

[drfchound]

I see the gang is out playing tonight

Disciples too.

[belton rover]

I see the gang is out playing tonight

You get down yer own end, Filo.

[River Don]

Hang on Wilts,

There were millionaires on both sides of the argument, and the likes of Goldman were pumping cash into the remain campaign.

Is the vampire squid on the side of the little guy now?

[Filo]

I see my little comment brought out a couple of nicely fitting hat wearers

[drfchound]

I see my little comment brought out a couple of nicely fitting hat wearers

So you are admitting to being a WUM now.

[belton rover]

I thought I’d get a few posts in while Bentley’s left the room.

[drfchound]

Filo taking over until Sydney gets out of his bed maybe.

[BigH]

Im not disputing Cameron had to offer a referendum to win back UKIP supporters but again, isn't that just democracy in action?

The political calculations may not have worked out as expected...

But t would have been very strange for the Tory party to risk defeat at a general election in order to shield the EU from British democratic opinion.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one RD.

I can't accept that the Conservatives under Cameron proposed a referendum out of altruistic motives. It was a ploy to neuter the threat of UKIP, pure and simple.

So, more an example of cynical politics to my mind, rather than democracy in action. You could argue that, had it been more about democracy, then the Conservatives would have been way more specific about the referendum question they would pose.

The fact that it all backfired hugely for Cameron and Osborne might have more to do with divine retribution than democracy!

[River Don]

H,

The Tory party was forced to offer a referendum to its supporters.

As BST points out they didn't expect to have to honour the promise.

Then, when they were forced to go through with it, they did all they could to win it. The prize would have lanced the boil of EU scepticism within Tory ranks for good.

There is no way the Tories were plotting a Brexit. If anything it was an opportunity to silence 'the bas**rds' for good.

Ultimately why were the Tory party expected to shield the EU from British public opinion? Indeed all the parties have toyed with offering referendums but only when they have been confident of an EU endorsement.

I just don't understand the outrage that the public was actually given a referendum when there was clearly a large body of opinion asking for it.

[wilts rover]

Hang on Wilts,

There were millionaires on both sides of the argument, and the likes of Goldman were pumping cash into the remain campaign.

Is the vampire squid on the side of the little guy now?

That's interestig RD - you know who funded the Remain campaign.

Who funded Aaron Banks and Nigel Farage?

https://bakerstreetherald.com/

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD.
No way in a million years would a Remain vote have lanced any boil.

1) Farage was already arguing that the vote was invalid because...reasons and there's no way the UKIP threat was going away if Remain had won.

2) You are forgetting that the Tory membership is intensely Eurosceptic, and Johnson had nailed his colours to that mast. No way was Johnson going away. He had/has too much ambition. He'd have kept on playing to the membership gallery with the same degree of mendacity as he did a generation ago when he was making up stories about bent bananas and Italian condoms.

You're giving Cameron way too much credit for thinking strategically. He never did. He was a political tactician who did what he needed to do to win (as with Austerity which I don't believe for a minute he ever had any strategic belief in, or if he did, the find at Oxford who gave him a First in PPE want firing). He played tactics with the Referendum as a trick to avoid losing in 2015. Then it came back and blew up in his face.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Remember what Farage said 6 days before the vote, referring to a narrow Remain win.

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."

In other circumstances, that would be worth the odd titter.

[SydneyRover]

BB to Sydney: "Sydney, maybe a big part of the reason the UK voted out was that it was becoming like Australia used to be, a penal colony for foreign criminals, the difference being that foreign criminals volunteered to come to the UK."

Sydney to BB: "And maybe the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010 to catch criminals played a big part in it."

BB to Sydney: "So you are saying a big part of the reason why foreign criminals came to the UK was because of the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010?"

Sydney to BB: "Please point out where I wrote anything of the sort bb, getting a bit desperate?"

 

LoL.
He will have to try to put that one down.
Cant wait.

great post hound

[drfchound]

BB to Sydney: "Sydney, maybe a big part of the reason the UK voted out was that it was becoming like Australia used to be, a penal colony for foreign criminals, the difference being that foreign criminals volunteered to come to the UK."

Sydney to BB: "And maybe the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010 to catch criminals played a big part in it."

BB to Sydney: "So you are saying a big part of the reason why foreign criminals came to the UK was because of the fact that there were/are 19,000 less police since 2010?"

Sydney to BB: "Please point out where I wrote anything of the sort bb, getting a bit desperate?"

 

LoL.
He will have to try to put that one down.
Cant wait.

great post hound

Thank you for the kind words.
Nice to be appreciated. 

[SydneyRover]

even when you have your eyes closed we can still see you hound 

[drfchound]

Did you audition for the Riddler role in Batman.

[River Don]

BST

Should Cameron have ignore his intensely Eurosceptic membership, not offered a referendum and accepted defeat in the election in order to satisfy the assumption that Britain's membership of the EU should never be questioned?

I don't think he could. He had to offer a referendum. It's what his membership wanted and it's what the polls were telling him he had to do.

And he did it half expecting he would never have to honour that promise.

And that's how FPTP democracy works. It's a two horse race and he had to make sure he could get enough of his half of the electorate onside. It's something the left are incapable of doing, the vote on that side is completely fragmented and they hardly ever win.

In all honesty I'm not disagreeing with either you or Big H. I just don't see his decision as being particularly underhand. He was just responding to a democratic demand.

[SydneyRover]

Hang on Wilts,

There were millionaires on both sides of the argument, and the likes of Goldman were pumping cash into the remain campaign.

Is the vampire squid on the side of the little guy now?

That's interestig RD - you know who funded the Remain campaign.

Who funded Aaron Banks and Nigel Farage?

https://bakerstreetherald.com/

Thanks for this link Wilts, this is partly why I think those that can should invest part of their 'estate' to ongoing democracy projects.