Remind me again why we left the EU

[Dutch Uncle]

This is a long thread but it sums up perfectly the NI situation. How peace came. Who was virulently against the GFA (plot spoiler - Michael Gove). Why and how Brexit has destabilised peace. Why it is going to be damned hard to out the violence genie back in the bottle.

https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1380067048491978755

Second, the 56-44% vote to remain is a little more subtle than a majority seeing the consequences of Brexit. Nationalist/Republicans voted 80-20 to remain while Loyalist/Unionists voted 60-40 to leave. Some of those 60% Unionists would automatically vote against whatever Republicans want, and but the 'enlightened' 40% were enough to give an overall majority for remain.

Totally agree with this - it feels like it was inevitable that there would be trouble when 'leave' was voted for - but it also seems that some were just looking for the opportunity to re-engage old hostilities...... I can't see this ending well either way.

Agree that Arlene Foster sometimes morphs into Paisley with her wailing...

No I disagree. It wasn't inevitable. There could have been other forms of Brexit that would have meant there was a lesser effect of Brexit on NI.

What made it likley was Johnson's hard Brexit - and then his lying about it. As soon as he told the DUP no British PM would ever put a border in the Irish Sea, then agreed a deal to put a border in the Irish Sea, then told people he hadn't - there was going to be trouble.

I heard Peter Hain on the radio just now say Brexit had poured petrol on the flame of the troubles. And that funeral was the match.

What it needs now are wise heads and calm politicians on all sides. We have Boris Johnson and Brandon Lewis.

Wilts - what is being said above is that leaving the SM/CU meant a border somewhere (Ire/NI or GB/NI) was inevitable, not every kind of Brexit. Of course a softer Brexit remaining in the SM/CU avoids this issue. And we have been lied to at every twist and turn of the last 5 years.

And what Peter Hain says is exactly right in every aspect IMHO.

[Metalmicky]

This is a long thread but it sums up perfectly the NI situation. How peace came. Who was virulently against the GFA (plot spoiler - Michael Gove). Why and how Brexit has destabilised peace. Why it is going to be damned hard to out the violence genie back in the bottle.

https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1380067048491978755

Second, the 56-44% vote to remain is a little more subtle than a majority seeing the consequences of Brexit. Nationalist/Republicans voted 80-20 to remain while Loyalist/Unionists voted 60-40 to leave. Some of those 60% Unionists would automatically vote against whatever Republicans want, and but the 'enlightened' 40% were enough to give an overall majority for remain.

Totally agree with this - it feels like it was inevitable that there would be trouble when 'leave' was voted for - but it also seems that some were just looking for the opportunity to re-engage old hostilities...... I can't see this ending well either way.

Agree that Arlene Foster sometimes morphs into Paisley with her wailing...

No I disagree. It wasn't inevitable. There could have been other forms of Brexit that would have meant there was a lesser effect of Brexit on NI.

What made it likley was Johnson's hard Brexit - and then his lying about it. As soon as he told the DUP no British PM would ever put a border in the Irish Sea, then agreed a deal to put a border in the Irish Sea, then told people he hadn't - there was going to be trouble.

I heard Peter Hain on the radio just now say Brexit had poured petrol on the flame of the troubles. And that funeral was the match.

What it needs now are wise heads and calm politicians on all sides. We have Boris Johnson and Brandon Lewis.

Wilts - what is being said above is that leaving the SM/CU meant a border somewhere (Ire/NI or GB/NI) was inevitable, not every kind of Brexit. Of course a softer Brexit remaining in the SM/CU avoids this issue. And we have been lied to at every twist and turn of the last 5 years.

And what Peter Hain says is exactly right in every aspect IMHO.

Correct - that's precisely what I meant Dutch..... without any spin. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

The problem absolutely was the UK Govt deciding that a 52/48 vote was a mandate for a hard Brexit, including leaving the SM and CU, and steadfastly refusing to engage with the inevitable problem that meant for NI.

This really ought to make anyone's blood boil. The combination of pig-headed arrogance and pig-ignorant stupidity.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Seanmatty123/status/1380096890407116804

[wilts rover]

This is a long thread but it sums up perfectly the NI situation. How peace came. Who was virulently against the GFA (plot spoiler - Michael Gove). Why and how Brexit has destabilised peace. Why it is going to be damned hard to out the violence genie back in the bottle.

https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1380067048491978755

Second, the 56-44% vote to remain is a little more subtle than a majority seeing the consequences of Brexit. Nationalist/Republicans voted 80-20 to remain while Loyalist/Unionists voted 60-40 to leave. Some of those 60% Unionists would automatically vote against whatever Republicans want, and but the 'enlightened' 40% were enough to give an overall majority for remain.

Totally agree with this - it feels like it was inevitable that there would be trouble when 'leave' was voted for - but it also seems that some were just looking for the opportunity to re-engage old hostilities...... I can't see this ending well either way.

Agree that Arlene Foster sometimes morphs into Paisley with her wailing...

No I disagree. It wasn't inevitable. There could have been other forms of Brexit that would have meant there was a lesser effect of Brexit on NI.

What made it likley was Johnson's hard Brexit - and then his lying about it. As soon as he told the DUP no British PM would ever put a border in the Irish Sea, then agreed a deal to put a border in the Irish Sea, then told people he hadn't - there was going to be trouble.

I heard Peter Hain on the radio just now say Brexit had poured petrol on the flame of the troubles. And that funeral was the match.

What it needs now are wise heads and calm politicians on all sides. We have Boris Johnson and Brandon Lewis.

Wilts - what is being said above is that leaving the SM/CU meant a border somewhere (Ire/NI or GB/NI) was inevitable, not every kind of Brexit. Of course a softer Brexit remaining in the SM/CU avoids this issue. And we have been lied to at every twist and turn of the last 5 years.

And what Peter Hain says is exactly right in every aspect IMHO.

Correct - that's precisely what I meant Dutch..... without any spin. 

Then I agree with both yourself & DU.

I haven't read that that thread but I just wanted to emphasis that it is not leaving the EU or Brexit per se which has caused recent problems, for fishermen, seafood exporters or in Ireland - it's Johnson's answer to it and subsequent deal.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's far deeper than Johnson.

The NI problems were inevitable once May blithely announced in her Lancaster House speech that the Brexit vote meant we had to leave the SM and CU. And she did that because she knew anything less would tear the Tory party apart.

And that's the core of the issue. Whether it is through ignorance or deliberate choice, a generation of senior Tories have put career and party success above the effect on the country.

[selby]

  Billy, I know you don't believe me or at least others on here don't, but I was one of the 48% and absolutely refute your idea that that is not a mandate to leave, in fact since that date I have changed my stance and would definitely vote to leave if a another vote was taken and believe that many more would do the same especially after the shameful way the EU are acting towards the UK since the vote.
  Overturning that vote would have caused a lot more trouble than the resulting problems and in my mind could well have ended up in civil unrest in some parts of the country.
  Far from making people like yourself's blood boil it could well have ended up with blood spilt.
 As far as NI is concerned the EU have used the situation there for their own selfish means, and may come to rue the day if the bombs start flying about in Brussels.
   

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.
1) On the mandate, go back and read what I wrote.

2) On the EU "using the NI situation", just turn off Talk Radio, engage your brain and tell me which part of the following sentence you disagree with.

"When the UK Govt chose, unilaterally, to leave the SM and CU, with Ireland staying in the SM and CU, the only possible outcomes were a trade border between NI and Ireland or a trade border between GB and NI."

Once you've accepted the correctness of that sentence, then ask yourself where on earth you got this childish certainty that "the EU have used the situation for their own selfish means" .

[wilts rover]

  Billy, I know you don't believe me or at least others on here don't, but I was one of the 48% and absolutely refute your idea that that is not a mandate to leave, in fact since that date I have changed my stance and would definitely vote to leave if a another vote was taken and believe that many more would do the same especially after the shameful way the EU are acting towards the UK since the vote.
  Overturning that vote would have caused a lot more trouble than the resulting problems and in my mind could well have ended up in civil unrest in some parts of the country.
  Far from making people like yourself's blood boil it could well have ended up with blood spilt.
 As far as NI is concerned the EU have used the situation there for their own selfish means, and may come to rue the day if the bombs start flying about in Brussels.
   

It wasn't the EU who promised the DUP there would be no border in the Irish Sea - and then put a border in the Irish Sea. For his own selfish ends.

Six days it took for the Prime Minister of the UK to make a comment on serious rioting in a UK city. 55 UK police officers injured, a bus hijacked and burnt out, petrol bombs and fireworks. Six days and all he can do is one tweet telling them to stop being naughty. Get over there you lazy ***** start acting like a Prime Minister and sort your mess out.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sure you really want Johnson over there sorting it out?

His usual strategy for sorting out a mess he's caused by deception and lying is divorce.

[SydneyRover]

indeed, from the earlier twitter link ..............

https://mobile.twitter.com/syrpis/status/1154286327699005440

[selby]

  Sorry Billy, you and the disciples can stamp your feet and bang your head against a brick wall all you want that percentage not to be in the EU is getting wider every day, partly because of people like you and the disciples harping on and on  how great life was under the EU and nobody listening its become just a noise in the background buddy.

[SydneyRover]

dunno, dunno anyone that said that

[Glyn_Wigley]

  Sorry Billy, you and the disciples can stamp your feet and bang your head against a brick wall all you want that percentage not to be in the EU is getting wider every day, partly because of people like you and the disciples harping on and on  how great life was under the EU and nobody listening its become just a noise in the background buddy.

Can anyone else hear a constant droning noise already?

[ravenrover]

Looking at the coverage it seems to be early teens causing all the trouble. Would they be old enough to remember the earlier Troubles and would they understand the effect of Brexit?
It looks to me like pent up anti social behaviour rather than full on rioting

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

Once again, you're arguing like a child.

We are talking now about the CONSEQUENCES of Brexit that are unfolding before your eyes. If you would open them.

I'll ask again. Do you accept that the presence of a border between GB and NI, or one between NI and Ireland was inevitable once WE, Britain, our Govt had chosen to interpret the 2016 vote as a mandate for leaving the SM and CU?

No need for your playground blather. Just a straight yes or no. Be grown up enough to engage with the consequences, rather than just throw stupid insults around.

[Dutch Uncle]

Looking at the coverage it seems to be early teens causing all the trouble. Would they be old enough to remember the earlier Troubles and would they understand the effect of Brexit?
It looks to me like pent up anti social behaviour rather than full on rioting

It is widely accepted that these youths are being manipulated by older more sinister figures.

[Metalmicky]

OT from Ireland talk (and this thread), but there is a horse running in the 14.20 at Aintree (about 5 mins) called Belfast Banter.... what's the chances of that running well...?

[Metalmicky]

OT from Ireland talk (and this thread), but there is a horse running in the 14.20 at Aintree (about 5 mins) called Belfast Banter.... what's the chances of that running well...?

Only bloody won didn't it - had a small E/W at 12/1, so I'm now £14 richer......... love the Irish I do 

[wilts rover]

Looking at the coverage it seems to be early teens causing all the trouble. Would they be old enough to remember the earlier Troubles and would they understand the effect of Brexit?
It looks to me like pent up anti social behaviour rather than full on rioting

It is widely accepted that these youths are being manipulated by older more sinister figures.

Billy Hutchinson, former Loyalist paramilitary, now leader of the PUP, interviewed on Channel 4 last night

https://www.channel4.com/news/politicians-must-prove-violence-doesnt-work-says-unionist-leader-in-northern-ireland

Naomi Long, Minister in NI Executive on same programme:

https://www.channel4.com/news/i-hoped-children-would-never-see-it-again-ni-justice-minister-on-belfast-violence

[selby]

  Funny how on the coronavirus thread we have got to over 350 pages of the same people slagging off the governments reaction to the pandemic some next to having a break down, and on this thread not championing the same government for saving thousands of lives getting us out of the EU with their absolutely pathetic and poor response to administering the vaccine programme in the Eu which is shambolic and is causing lives to be lost.

[ravenrover]

Selby can you explain saving lives? 127k dead!

[selby]

  If things carry on in Europe the way they are going quite a few countries on population overtook us by Christmas head to head on population and quite a few are quickly catching us up now, and that is if they report on the numbers the same like for like way  we do, which in some instances I doubt and am sceptical of, France for one.

[wilts rover]

  Funny how on the coronavirus thread we have got to over 350 pages of the same people slagging off the governments reaction to the pandemic some next to having a break down, and on this thread not championing the same government for saving thousands of lives getting us out of the EU with their absolutely pathetic and poor response to administering the vaccine programme in the Eu which is shambolic and is causing lives to be lost.

Which EU vaccination is that Selby? I was under the impression that individual countries were carrying out their own vaccintion programmes?

[selby]

  Wilts, Italy has once again gone in front of us with the number of deaths per million population this week, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Belgium, Hungary, Poland are in a number of countries on the continent and in the EU that have and still are dealing with the pandemic poorly conveniently not commented on on here when pointing the finger at our leadership.

[ravenrover]

Ah but of course our shower did everything they could, but to do what?

[Bentley Bullet]

Apparently, someone I know who lives in Austria claims that the media there is keeping a very low profile on the success of the UK vaccine roll-out.

Hmm, I thought. There are a few of us here in the UK who are doing that too!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Apparently, someone I know who lives in Austria claims that the media there is keeping a very low profile on the success of the UK vaccine roll-out.

Hmm, I thought. There are a few of us here in the UK who are doing that too!

They probably report the situation in the UK about as often as the UK media report the situation in Austria.

[Bentley Bullet]

Apparently, they reported on the situation in the UK frequently when our daily death rates were high, prior to the vaccine roll-out, but have kept a low profile since.

.....Just like a few of us here in the UK are doing!

[selby]

  Well Wilts, if they do it as individual countries there is quite a few who are not very good at it, but what they seem to be excellent about is stamping their feet and moaning at us about  the fact that it is the Kent variant from the UK that is causing them problems.
  Another thing we have been better at making than them and after all the Lord did say share, which it looks like we have done.

[tyke1962]

Some of the posters on here should really have a good look inside the mind of your average Mr Joe Loyalist in NI before they start throwing accusations around at people who voted leave in a democratic referendum

Give this set of lunatics one inch and they will drive every Catholic out of Ulster within the day and that's just the DUP never mind the meat heads in the Shankhill .

The power share broke down in Storemont years ago .

It's gone on for over 300 years .