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Quote from: bpoolrover on May 16, 2021, 09:30:57 amhttps://apple.news/AIo1GuoKZRA2EY1dtPDwP8AHigh ratings there for Andy Burnham as future leader as well.I've been saying on here for a long time that Burnham would be a good Labour leader. Straight talking Northern lad. Would appeal to a lot of lost Labour voters.
https://apple.news/AIo1GuoKZRA2EY1dtPDwP8A
Quote from: Sprotyrover on April 08, 2020, 10:36:03 pmInterestingly slavery did not end in Turkey until 1933. Circassian women were the prized possession and were acquired as Sex slaves. So Boris Ohnsons great great grandma was a Sex slave!if Johnson gets married he will have "scored" an equaliser in his "Beddings" sorry "Weddings" contest with Corbyn to make the scoreS 3 allit seems he got divorced in February 2020.Johnson 2 and countingSpouse: Marina Wheeler (m. 1993–2020), Allegra Mostyn-Owen (m. 1987–1993)Corbyn 3Spouse: Laura Alvarez (m. 2013), Claudia Bracchitta (m. 1987–1999), Jane Chapman (m. 1974–1979)
Interestingly slavery did not end in Turkey until 1933. Circassian women were the prized possession and were acquired as Sex slaves. So Boris Ohnsons great great grandma was a Sex slave!
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1445949/Labour-Party-news-batley-and-spen-by-election-candidate-Laurence-fox-reclaim-breaking-news Thought I would give the thread a bump for the faithful.
Quote from: selby on June 05, 2021, 05:53:46 pmhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1445949/Labour-Party-news-batley-and-spen-by-election-candidate-Laurence-fox-reclaim-breaking-news Thought I would give the thread a bump for the faithful.Another election and another defeat .The only question is who apart from themselves they will pin the blame on .Choose from the following A , The vaccine boost .B , Our core voters stayed at home .C , George Galloway split the vote D , Jeremy Corbyn E , Angela Rayner
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 05, 2021, 06:41:17 pmQuote from: selby on June 05, 2021, 05:53:46 pmhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1445949/Labour-Party-news-batley-and-spen-by-election-candidate-Laurence-fox-reclaim-breaking-news Thought I would give the thread a bump for the faithful.Another election and another defeat .The only question is who apart from themselves they will pin the blame on .Choose from the following A , The vaccine boost .B , Our core voters stayed at home .C , George Galloway split the vote D , Jeremy Corbyn E , Angela RaynerYou have the floor Tyke, use your 'learning' and explain to others how you're going to get the tories out.
Quote from: SydneyRover on June 05, 2021, 10:57:40 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 05, 2021, 06:41:17 pmQuote from: selby on June 05, 2021, 05:53:46 pmhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1445949/Labour-Party-news-batley-and-spen-by-election-candidate-Laurence-fox-reclaim-breaking-news Thought I would give the thread a bump for the faithful.Another election and another defeat .The only question is who apart from themselves they will pin the blame on .Choose from the following A , The vaccine boost .B , Our core voters stayed at home .C , George Galloway split the vote D , Jeremy Corbyn E , Angela RaynerYou have the floor Tyke, use your 'learning' and explain to others how you're going to get the tories out.What makes you so sure I want the tories out given the alternative ?
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 06, 2021, 12:09:38 amQuote from: SydneyRover on June 05, 2021, 10:57:40 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on June 05, 2021, 06:41:17 pmQuote from: selby on June 05, 2021, 05:53:46 pmhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1445949/Labour-Party-news-batley-and-spen-by-election-candidate-Laurence-fox-reclaim-breaking-news Thought I would give the thread a bump for the faithful.Another election and another defeat .The only question is who apart from themselves they will pin the blame on .Choose from the following A , The vaccine boost .B , Our core voters stayed at home .C , George Galloway split the vote D , Jeremy Corbyn E , Angela RaynerYou have the floor Tyke, use your 'learning' and explain to others how you're going to get the tories out.What makes you so sure I want the tories out given the alternative ?That's entirely up to you and your conscience Tyke, you're very much in danger of sounding more like a jilted lover rather than a rational political commentator. You have fought tooth and nail to deny that your stance helps the tories but now it appears you are even abandoning that position.AddedHowever Tyke, if after everything you do find yourself wavering, ignore the promises of 20,000 coppers, 50,000 nurses and 40 new hospitals but do watch this it's less than 3 minute of your life but may mean something to the families of the tens of thousands of those that died unnecessarily:2 March 2020https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-51706391
So you don't think that quite a few held their noses to vote in 2017?
"What finished him off was his decision aided by Starmer to move away from their manifesto pledge on brexit and put their name to a second referendum ."Utter and absolute b*llocks. This has become the Left's next Great Betrayal Myth to pass down the generations.Here's the real story.Labour supporters were split roughly 3:1 Remain:Leave. That's been shown in dozens of opinion polls.From 2017 until early 2019, Corbyn managed to neutralise the Brexit question, mainly by ignoring it. The Corbynistas clapped themselves on the back at the success of this strategy as Labour stayed above 40% in the polls.Some of us, while impressed by the efficacy of that strategy, warned that it couldn't last. By the next election, Brexit would have come to a head and Labour would have had to come down on one side or the other.Corbyn did. He came out for Leave in early 2019. And it had a catastrophic effect. Going on opinion poll numbers, that led to a collapse in Labour support on an unprecedented scale. In four months, Labour lost 5 million supporters to the Greens and LDs. They fell to their lowest polling figures in a century. Anyone on the Left who chucks about this idle accusation that Starmer destroyed Corbyn by pushing for a Ref2 stance is deliberately or ignorantly sidestepping the actual context of early 2019. But hey, as long as it gives them a reason to insist they were right all along...
Quote from: SydneyRover on June 06, 2021, 11:48:55 amSo you don't think that quite a few held their noses to vote in 2017?Well I don't think the younger people who Corbyn attracted to become members of the Labour Party did Sydney .To be fair the angle Corbyn came in from was pretty impressive policy wise .Unfortunately he was a weak leader with some disturbing relationships with many questionable people which worked against him in a huge number of areas such as South Yorkshire where they are a significant amount of families who have served their country in the military .What finished him off was his decision aided by Starmer to move away from their manifesto pledge on brexit and put their name to a second referendum .That was basically why the red wall crumbled and many unwilling to hold their noses anymore .Johnson delivered what they voted for in the 2016 referendum .Starmer was elected as Leader of the Labour Party to build on Corbyn's work post brexit and be the credible face of a socially democratic Labour Party .It's turned out to be anything but , he's purged the left , brought Mandelson back to the fold and now he's picking fights with the trade unions .The unification of the Labour Party seems to be to follow Blair's path , take it or leave it .He's completely fecked himself right over in the former heartlands , a shift towards New Labour which started the party's demise around here and the architect of Labour's brexit postion going in to the 2019 election .The electorate have concluded they may as well stick with the Tories and some level up money coming rather than Starmer who seems to have difficulty understanding a democratic vote , manifesto pledges and honouring his own leadership election promises .The party is heading for oblivion unless someone can be found to rescue it , it's not looking like that man is Starmer in all honesty .A good start would be to recognise the electorate aren't as stupid as the Labour Party take them for .It's one thing to be fecked over by Johnson and his mob and quite another by a party who were historically founded to represent you .Nobody seems to see that angle .
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 06, 2021, 01:40:30 pm"What finished him off was his decision aided by Starmer to move away from their manifesto pledge on brexit and put their name to a second referendum ."Utter and absolute b*llocks. This has become the Left's next Great Betrayal Myth to pass down the generations.Here's the real story.Labour supporters were split roughly 3:1 Remain:Leave. That's been shown in dozens of opinion polls.From 2017 until early 2019, Corbyn managed to neutralise the Brexit question, mainly by ignoring it. The Corbynistas clapped themselves on the back at the success of this strategy as Labour stayed above 40% in the polls.Some of us, while impressed by the efficacy of that strategy, warned that it couldn't last. By the next election, Brexit would have come to a head and Labour would have had to come down on one side or the other.Corbyn did. He came out for Leave in early 2019. And it had a catastrophic effect. Going on opinion poll numbers, that led to a collapse in Labour support on an unprecedented scale. In four months, Labour lost 5 million supporters to the Greens and LDs. They fell to their lowest polling figures in a century. Anyone on the Left who chucks about this idle accusation that Starmer destroyed Corbyn by pushing for a Ref2 stance is deliberately or ignorantly sidestepping the actual context of early 2019. But hey, as long as it gives them a reason to insist they were right all along...60% of Labour constituencies voted leave Billy , that's a clear mandate from their voters as to what their Brexit position should have been .Starmer's second referendum shenanigans led to the biggest election hiding since the 1930's .https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/
"What finished him off was his decision aided by Starmer to move away from their manifesto pledge on brexit and put their name to a second referendum ."Utter and absolute b*llocks. This has become the Left's next Great Betrayal Myth to pass down the generations.Here's the real story.Labour supporters were split roughly 3:1 Remain:Leave. That's been shown in dozens of opinion polls.From 2017 until early 2019, Corbyn managed to neutralise the Brexit question, mainly by ignoring it. The Corbynistas clapped themselves on the back at the success of this strategy as Labour stayed above 40% in the polls.Some of us, while impressed by the efficacy of that strategy, warned that it couldn't last. By the next election, Brexit would have come to a head and Labour would have had to come down on one side or the other.Corbyn did. He came out for Leave in early 2019. And it had a catastrophic effect. Going on opinion poll numbers, that led to a collapse in Labour support on an unprecedented scale. In four months, Labour lost 5 million supporters to the Greens and LDs. They fell to their lowest polling figures in a century. Anyone on the Left who chucks about this idle accusation that Starmer destroyed Corbyn by pushing for a Ref2 stance is deliberately or ignorantly sidestepping the actual context of early 2019. But hey, as long as it gives them a reason to insist they were right all along...
Tyke.You repeatedly complain about the last Labour Govt. You drop into this intellectually bone idle stance from the Left that Labour 1997-2010 might as well have been Tories.Look at school spending.Look at NHS spending.Look at infrastructure spending.Look at the introduction of working tax credits to put more money in the pockets of the lower paid.And biggest of all, look at the massive support the Labour Govt gave to the economy in 2008 when it was facing a Second Great Depression, and the Tories were screaming for Austerity.Look at those achievements and then look yourself in the mirror and tell me you truly think that Labour Govt was effectively Tory.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 06, 2021, 12:36:40 pmTyke.You repeatedly complain about the last Labour Govt. You drop into this intellectually bone idle stance from the Left that Labour 1997-2010 might as well have been Tories.Look at school spending.Look at NHS spending.Look at infrastructure spending.Look at the introduction of working tax credits to put more money in the pockets of the lower paid.And biggest of all, look at the massive support the Labour Govt gave to the economy in 2008 when it was facing a Second Great Depression, and the Tories were screaming for Austerity.Look at those achievements and then look yourself in the mirror and tell me you truly think that Labour Govt was effectively Tory.Nothing particularly new about low wage top ups Billy , they've been around for decades so nothing revolutionary going on here .This policy was rolled out with the best intentions by Brown and took many families out of poverty so I'm not going to criticise the intent .However let's be clear , working tax credits were only available to a percentage of the population , those with young children .There's more than a hint of welfare dependency with this policy .Once the benefit is removed the low pay still remains which offers little incentive to invest in creating skilled and better paid work .There's more meat on the bones in my opinion to eliminate in work poverty by bargaining agreements and skilling up .That's more a root and branch approach although as I say the intentions were honourable with WTC .
Quote from: tyke1962 on June 06, 2021, 12:41:24 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on June 06, 2021, 11:48:55 amSo you don't think that quite a few held their noses to vote in 2017?Well I don't think the younger people who Corbyn attracted to become members of the Labour Party did Sydney .To be fair the angle Corbyn came in from was pretty impressive policy wise .Unfortunately he was a weak leader with some disturbing relationships with many questionable people which worked against him in a huge number of areas such as South Yorkshire where they are a significant amount of families who have served their country in the military .What finished him off was his decision aided by Starmer to move away from their manifesto pledge on brexit and put their name to a second referendum .That was basically why the red wall crumbled and many unwilling to hold their noses anymore .Johnson delivered what they voted for in the 2016 referendum .Starmer was elected as Leader of the Labour Party to build on Corbyn's work post brexit and be the credible face of a socially democratic Labour Party .It's turned out to be anything but , he's purged the left , brought Mandelson back to the fold and now he's picking fights with the trade unions .The unification of the Labour Party seems to be to follow Blair's path , take it or leave it .He's completely fecked himself right over in the former heartlands , a shift towards New Labour which started the party's demise around here and the architect of Labour's brexit postion going in to the 2019 election .The electorate have concluded they may as well stick with the Tories and some level up money coming rather than Starmer who seems to have difficulty understanding a democratic vote , manifesto pledges and honouring his own leadership election promises .The party is heading for oblivion unless someone can be found to rescue it , it's not looking like that man is Starmer in all honesty .A good start would be to recognise the electorate aren't as stupid as the Labour Party take them for .It's one thing to be fecked over by Johnson and his mob and quite another by a party who were historically founded to represent you .Nobody seems to see that angle .Quote from: tyke1962 on June 06, 2021, 03:15:54 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 06, 2021, 01:40:30 pm"What finished him off was his decision aided by Starmer to move away from their manifesto pledge on brexit and put their name to a second referendum ."Utter and absolute b*llocks. This has become the Left's next Great Betrayal Myth to pass down the generations.Here's the real story.Labour supporters were split roughly 3:1 Remain:Leave. That's been shown in dozens of opinion polls.From 2017 until early 2019, Corbyn managed to neutralise the Brexit question, mainly by ignoring it. The Corbynistas clapped themselves on the back at the success of this strategy as Labour stayed above 40% in the polls.Some of us, while impressed by the efficacy of that strategy, warned that it couldn't last. By the next election, Brexit would have come to a head and Labour would have had to come down on one side or the other.Corbyn did. He came out for Leave in early 2019. And it had a catastrophic effect. Going on opinion poll numbers, that led to a collapse in Labour support on an unprecedented scale. In four months, Labour lost 5 million supporters to the Greens and LDs. They fell to their lowest polling figures in a century. Anyone on the Left who chucks about this idle accusation that Starmer destroyed Corbyn by pushing for a Ref2 stance is deliberately or ignorantly sidestepping the actual context of early 2019. But hey, as long as it gives them a reason to insist they were right all along...60% of Labour constituencies voted leave Billy , that's a clear mandate from their voters as to what their Brexit position should have been .Starmer's second referendum shenanigans led to the biggest election hiding since the 1930's .https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/That is a pretty damning report Tyke and an interesting link that you posted but will be ridiculed and discredited without doubt.I have noticed though that quite a few posters who would have been on here in a flash to join in against you have been absent.Perhaps not too many of them disagree with you.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 06, 2021, 01:40:30 pm"What finished him off was his decision aided by Starmer to move away from their manifesto pledge on brexit and put their name to a second referendum ."Utter and absolute b*llocks. This has become the Left's next Great Betrayal Myth to pass down the generations.Here's the real story.Labour supporters were split roughly 3:1 Remain:Leave. That's been shown in dozens of opinion polls.From 2017 until early 2019, Corbyn managed to neutralise the Brexit question, mainly by ignoring it. The Corbynistas clapped themselves on the back at the success of this strategy as Labour stayed above 40% in the polls.Some of us, while impressed by the efficacy of that strategy, warned that it couldn't last. By the next election, Brexit would have come to a head and Labour would have had to come down on one side or the other.Corbyn did. He came out for Leave in early 2019. And it had a catastrophic effect. Going on opinion poll numbers, that led to a collapse in Labour support on an unprecedented scale. In four months, Labour lost 5 million supporters to the Greens and LDs. They fell to their lowest polling figures in a century. Anyone on the Left who chucks about this idle accusation that Starmer destroyed Corbyn by pushing for a Ref2 stance is deliberately or ignorantly sidestepping the actual context of early 2019. But hey, as long as it gives them a reason to insist they were right all along...60% of Labour constituencies voted leave Billy , that's a clear mandate from their voters as to what their Brexit position should have been .Starmer's second referendum shenanigans led to the biggest election hiding since the 1930's .https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/
"What finished him off was his decision aided by Starmer to move away from their manifesto pledge on brexit and put their name to a second referendum ."Utter and absolute b*llocks. This has become the Left's next Great Betrayal Myth to pass down the generations.Here's the real story.Labour supporters were split roughly 3:1 Remain:Leave. That's been shown in dozens of opinion polls.From 2017 until early 2019, Corbyn managed to neutralise the Brexit question, mainly by ignoring it. The Corbynistas clapped themselves on the back at the success of this strategy as Labour stayed above 40% in the polls.Some of us, while impressed by the efficacy of that strategy, warned that it couldn't last. By the next election, Brexit would have come to a head and Labour would have had to come down on one side or the other.Corbyn did. He came out for Leave in early 2019. And it had a catastrophic effect. Going on opinion poll numbers, that led to a collapse in Labour support on an unprecedented scale. In four months, Labour lost 5 million supporters to the Greens and LDs. They fell to their lowest polling figures in a century. Anyone on the Left who chucks about this idle accusation that Starmer destroyed Corbyn by pushing for a Ref2 stance is deliberately or ignorantly sidestepping the actual context of early 2019. But hey, as long as it gives them a reason to insist they were right all along...
Tyke.Yes, but in very few of those constituencies did a majority of Labour voters support Leave. That is the point.And there you go again saying that it was the move towards Ref2 that wrecked Labour.Utter b*llocks.Labour's policy under Corbyn for the first half of 2019 was to support Leave.Only from Summer 2019, under Starmer's influence, did policy embrace Ref 2.Look at that polling graph and tell me Starmer was responsible for Labour's disaster in 2019.You are like a man who sets fire to his house, then blames the fire brigade for the water damage.
Ldr.Given the split of votes on the centre-Left, Labour ALWAYS needs to appeal to a broad church to have a chance of winning.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on June 06, 2021, 04:18:40 pmLdr.Given the split of votes on the centre-Left, Labour ALWAYS needs to appeal to a broad church to have a chance of winning. So what Tyke said is right, if Labour had focussed more on what all constituents wanted in those seats rather than just what the Labour supports wanted they would have likely done better. It’s a hard thing to hear but there is no need for Labour to appeal to you, Wilts or Filo (apologies for using you as examples) as for your own reasons you would vote Labour regardless. They need to attract support from the wider voter base
LdrIn 2019, a majority of voters across the entire country voted for parties that were against the Brexit that was being lined up.You are focussing on a minority and saying Labour should have pandered to them. A bit of inconsistent logic going on there.