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Quote from: tyke1962 on May 01, 2020, 10:22:56 pmQuote from: scawsby steve on May 01, 2020, 07:54:47 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on April 30, 2020, 10:12:29 pmQuote from: Bentley Bullet on April 29, 2020, 08:29:13 pmYes, Labour supporters will be very impressed with Starmer. I can see him being the leader of the opposition for years.God forbid an intelligent and credible bloke should lead a political party in this day and age .Better stick with the bankrupt king and reality tv idiot across the pond or the shake hands with corvid-19 patients serial liar we have in the UK .I'll give Johnson 18 months tops before his own party , media and donors turn on him .With what's coming down the road he won't even be around to fight the next election .Simple choice for the Tories , get rid of the idiot or Labour win with a landslide under Starmer .You heard it here first .Tyke, I totally agree with you about Starmer being intelligent and credible. He's also a very decent man. However, you must also not forget that he showed an astonishing lack of judgement on Brexit, when it came to Labour voters in the North, which contributed to the terrible pummeling the Party took last year.When out on my walk today, I came across an old friend of mine, a guy who has been the staunchest Labour supporter I've ever known, all of his life. He's always hated the Tories with a passion, and still does.When I asked him about Starmer, he said that in his opinion the guy would be a disaster for the Party, and that Labour are now interested in nothing but London and the South.Whether he's right or wrong, Tyke, the thing is that there'll be millions thinking like him in the North of England. How does Starmer now get them all back on board? Because he's certainly going to have to if the Labour Party are going to turn an 80 seat Tory majority into the Labour landslide that you're predicting in 2024.Steve I'm aware of Starmer's stance on brexit and its catastrophic consequences in the heartlands .The way I look at is that we need to move on now , the brexit argument is over and done with , we have left now and that's that .We need to bury the hatchet come together behind the new leader , I'm an ardent leaver so I've figured if I can move on then we should all be able to .Starmer as Wilts has pointed out is reaching out to the heartlands and asking the questions and no doubt he will take on board what's he's hearing .He's intelligent enough to know things need to change and I fully believe he will get the party united and ready for government .It won't be a quick fix solution and it doesn't need to be as there isn't an election for 4 years .Step by step rather than knee jerk decisions .I think he will shift the party more towards the centre ground as time goes on and the electorate will have a choice of right wing populist v centre ground credibility .Four more years of this clown and what's coming down the road economically from the aftermath of this pandemic will I feel see a return to common sense and credibility .Crisis government's never get re-elected historically , not even Churchill could manage that or Gordon Brown to a lesser extent .I'm a left wing man myself but we have to compromise to get elected , I understand that .A centre Labour Government is still a damn sight more preferable than a Tory one led by this buffoon that I do know .Some great points in there Tyke. However, I can't see the Tories pursuing right wing populist policies during the economic hit that's coming with this virus. They've already had to take the railways into state control, and many economic pundits are saying the same thing will have to happen with the airline industry, and other industries as well.If all this happens, the Tories will be taking the centre ground almost by default, and Labour will face an enormous task getting it back.I don't envy Starmer's job at the moment, I really don't.
Quote from: scawsby steve on May 01, 2020, 07:54:47 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on April 30, 2020, 10:12:29 pmQuote from: Bentley Bullet on April 29, 2020, 08:29:13 pmYes, Labour supporters will be very impressed with Starmer. I can see him being the leader of the opposition for years.God forbid an intelligent and credible bloke should lead a political party in this day and age .Better stick with the bankrupt king and reality tv idiot across the pond or the shake hands with corvid-19 patients serial liar we have in the UK .I'll give Johnson 18 months tops before his own party , media and donors turn on him .With what's coming down the road he won't even be around to fight the next election .Simple choice for the Tories , get rid of the idiot or Labour win with a landslide under Starmer .You heard it here first .Tyke, I totally agree with you about Starmer being intelligent and credible. He's also a very decent man. However, you must also not forget that he showed an astonishing lack of judgement on Brexit, when it came to Labour voters in the North, which contributed to the terrible pummeling the Party took last year.When out on my walk today, I came across an old friend of mine, a guy who has been the staunchest Labour supporter I've ever known, all of his life. He's always hated the Tories with a passion, and still does.When I asked him about Starmer, he said that in his opinion the guy would be a disaster for the Party, and that Labour are now interested in nothing but London and the South.Whether he's right or wrong, Tyke, the thing is that there'll be millions thinking like him in the North of England. How does Starmer now get them all back on board? Because he's certainly going to have to if the Labour Party are going to turn an 80 seat Tory majority into the Labour landslide that you're predicting in 2024.Steve I'm aware of Starmer's stance on brexit and its catastrophic consequences in the heartlands .The way I look at is that we need to move on now , the brexit argument is over and done with , we have left now and that's that .We need to bury the hatchet come together behind the new leader , I'm an ardent leaver so I've figured if I can move on then we should all be able to .Starmer as Wilts has pointed out is reaching out to the heartlands and asking the questions and no doubt he will take on board what's he's hearing .He's intelligent enough to know things need to change and I fully believe he will get the party united and ready for government .It won't be a quick fix solution and it doesn't need to be as there isn't an election for 4 years .Step by step rather than knee jerk decisions .I think he will shift the party more towards the centre ground as time goes on and the electorate will have a choice of right wing populist v centre ground credibility .Four more years of this clown and what's coming down the road economically from the aftermath of this pandemic will I feel see a return to common sense and credibility .Crisis government's never get re-elected historically , not even Churchill could manage that or Gordon Brown to a lesser extent .I'm a left wing man myself but we have to compromise to get elected , I understand that .A centre Labour Government is still a damn sight more preferable than a Tory one led by this buffoon that I do know .
Quote from: tyke1962 on April 30, 2020, 10:12:29 pmQuote from: Bentley Bullet on April 29, 2020, 08:29:13 pmYes, Labour supporters will be very impressed with Starmer. I can see him being the leader of the opposition for years.God forbid an intelligent and credible bloke should lead a political party in this day and age .Better stick with the bankrupt king and reality tv idiot across the pond or the shake hands with corvid-19 patients serial liar we have in the UK .I'll give Johnson 18 months tops before his own party , media and donors turn on him .With what's coming down the road he won't even be around to fight the next election .Simple choice for the Tories , get rid of the idiot or Labour win with a landslide under Starmer .You heard it here first .Tyke, I totally agree with you about Starmer being intelligent and credible. He's also a very decent man. However, you must also not forget that he showed an astonishing lack of judgement on Brexit, when it came to Labour voters in the North, which contributed to the terrible pummeling the Party took last year.When out on my walk today, I came across an old friend of mine, a guy who has been the staunchest Labour supporter I've ever known, all of his life. He's always hated the Tories with a passion, and still does.When I asked him about Starmer, he said that in his opinion the guy would be a disaster for the Party, and that Labour are now interested in nothing but London and the South.Whether he's right or wrong, Tyke, the thing is that there'll be millions thinking like him in the North of England. How does Starmer now get them all back on board? Because he's certainly going to have to if the Labour Party are going to turn an 80 seat Tory majority into the Labour landslide that you're predicting in 2024.
Quote from: Bentley Bullet on April 29, 2020, 08:29:13 pmYes, Labour supporters will be very impressed with Starmer. I can see him being the leader of the opposition for years.God forbid an intelligent and credible bloke should lead a political party in this day and age .Better stick with the bankrupt king and reality tv idiot across the pond or the shake hands with corvid-19 patients serial liar we have in the UK .I'll give Johnson 18 months tops before his own party , media and donors turn on him .With what's coming down the road he won't even be around to fight the next election .Simple choice for the Tories , get rid of the idiot or Labour win with a landslide under Starmer .You heard it here first .
Yes, Labour supporters will be very impressed with Starmer. I can see him being the leader of the opposition for years.
Yep, the last 10 years was all labours fault Tyke As I often do I'll temper that comment a little by saying yes a lot of people didn't like JC but getting screwed over by the tories was better? and most of what I read here from the deep thinkers was purile rubbish about him being the friend of terrorists and being a russian and yet we now have a PM who's party was partly financed by the russians and not a f**king word from the same people. Where is that report by-the-way.As you said we have to move on.
Quote from: SydneyRover on May 03, 2020, 05:34:13 amYep, the last 10 years was all labours fault Tyke As I often do I'll temper that comment a little by saying yes a lot of people didn't like JC but getting screwed over by the tories was better? and most of what I read here from the deep thinkers was purile rubbish about him being the friend of terrorists and being a russian and yet we now have a PM who's party was partly financed by the russians and not a f**king word from the same people. Where is that report by-the-way.As you said we have to move on.Corbyn's biggest mistake was to openly take the establishment on and attempt to wrestle the wealth from them .Playing class politics requires rather more subtlety in my opinion .Blair getting rid of the majority of hereditary peers in the Lords many of whom were Tories and came from privilege was an example of class politics but done with rather more brains attached to it .Privately it was " get fecking rid of those rich privileged Tories in that place " Publicly it was " a bit old fashioned for a modern country to be having them and we need a change " A huge majority and actually in power generally helps too .Got to gain the power first Sydney and then go to work as I'm sure you know only too well .
That's what the world needs less personalities and more grafters but the population has to want it and demand it, unfortunately more and more people are tuned into wanting it now, whatever it is.
Quote from: tyke1962 on May 03, 2020, 11:49:39 amQuote from: SydneyRover on May 03, 2020, 05:34:13 amYep, the last 10 years was all labours fault Tyke As I often do I'll temper that comment a little by saying yes a lot of people didn't like JC but getting screwed over by the tories was better? and most of what I read here from the deep thinkers was purile rubbish about him being the friend of terrorists and being a russian and yet we now have a PM who's party was partly financed by the russians and not a f**king word from the same people. Where is that report by-the-way.As you said we have to move on.Corbyn's biggest mistake was to openly take the establishment on and attempt to wrestle the wealth from them .Playing class politics requires rather more subtlety in my opinion .Blair getting rid of the majority of hereditary peers in the Lords many of whom were Tories and came from privilege was an example of class politics but done with rather more brains attached to it .Privately it was " get fecking rid of those rich privileged Tories in that place " Publicly it was " a bit old fashioned for a modern country to be having them and we need a change " A huge majority and actually in power generally helps too .Got to gain the power first Sydney and then go to work as I'm sure you know only too well .I dont disagree with that tyke but in regard to your first point, Corbyn's main problem was that much of the establishment he tried to take on were in his own party.I don't think people appreciate how close he came of being PM in 2017. 2227 votes in 7 seats. Those claims in the recent report look even more worrying if that is taken into consideration.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-election-results-votes-away-prime-minister-theresa-may-hung-parliament-a7782581.htmlWhat would the next GE have looked like in 2020 or 2022 if Brexit had been carried out (or indeed never happened) and this period rested soley on austerity? We will never know but it would certainly have been different.It is also a bit generous of you Billy to say that Atlee won victory in the 'centre ground' by creating a free for use NHS, carrying out the nationalisation of most of the countries utilities, railways and major heavy industries. What would a radical left-wing programme have been in 1945 then?Good luck to Starmer, as far as I can see he is doing as well as can be expected under the circumstances. Like a barrister building a case - whilst listening to those around him as to what he can do to improve that case.
Quote from: scawsby steve on May 02, 2020, 06:41:29 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on May 01, 2020, 10:22:56 pmQuote from: scawsby steve on May 01, 2020, 07:54:47 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on April 30, 2020, 10:12:29 pmQuote from: Bentley Bullet on April 29, 2020, 08:29:13 pmYes, Labour supporters will be very impressed with Starmer. I can see him being the leader of the opposition for years.God forbid an intelligent and credible bloke should lead a political party in this day and age .Better stick with the bankrupt king and reality tv idiot across the pond or the shake hands with corvid-19 patients serial liar we have in the UK .I'll give Johnson 18 months tops before his own party , media and donors turn on him .With what's coming down the road he won't even be around to fight the next election .Simple choice for the Tories , get rid of the idiot or Labour win with a landslide under Starmer .You heard it here first .Tyke, I totally agree with you about Starmer being intelligent and credible. He's also a very decent man. However, you must also not forget that he showed an astonishing lack of judgement on Brexit, when it came to Labour voters in the North, which contributed to the terrible pummeling the Party took last year.When out on my walk today, I came across an old friend of mine, a guy who has been the staunchest Labour supporter I've ever known, all of his life. He's always hated the Tories with a passion, and still does.When I asked him about Starmer, he said that in his opinion the guy would be a disaster for the Party, and that Labour are now interested in nothing but London and the South.Whether he's right or wrong, Tyke, the thing is that there'll be millions thinking like him in the North of England. How does Starmer now get them all back on board? Because he's certainly going to have to if the Labour Party are going to turn an 80 seat Tory majority into the Labour landslide that you're predicting in 2024.Steve I'm aware of Starmer's stance on brexit and its catastrophic consequences in the heartlands .The way I look at is that we need to move on now , the brexit argument is over and done with , we have left now and that's that .We need to bury the hatchet come together behind the new leader , I'm an ardent leaver so I've figured if I can move on then we should all be able to .Starmer as Wilts has pointed out is reaching out to the heartlands and asking the questions and no doubt he will take on board what's he's hearing .He's intelligent enough to know things need to change and I fully believe he will get the party united and ready for government .It won't be a quick fix solution and it doesn't need to be as there isn't an election for 4 years .Step by step rather than knee jerk decisions .I think he will shift the party more towards the centre ground as time goes on and the electorate will have a choice of right wing populist v centre ground credibility .Four more years of this clown and what's coming down the road economically from the aftermath of this pandemic will I feel see a return to common sense and credibility .Crisis government's never get re-elected historically , not even Churchill could manage that or Gordon Brown to a lesser extent .I'm a left wing man myself but we have to compromise to get elected , I understand that .A centre Labour Government is still a damn sight more preferable than a Tory one led by this buffoon that I do know .Some great points in there Tyke. However, I can't see the Tories pursuing right wing populist policies during the economic hit that's coming with this virus. They've already had to take the railways into state control, and many economic pundits are saying the same thing will have to happen with the airline industry, and other industries as well.If all this happens, the Tories will be taking the centre ground almost by default, and Labour will face an enormous task getting it back.I don't envy Starmer's job at the moment, I really don't.The thing is Steve becoming less Tory is going to set them on a collision course with the wealthy donors who back them to receive tax cuts and less regulation and not pursue social policies .Becoming less Labour may have won 3 elections under Blair but it also came at a price and the start of the demise in the heartlands You can hear the donors already blowing in the ears of ministers to get the economy moving again .The majority of the Tory Party MP's are products of Thatcherism , less state involvement and they don't care too much for investing in it .The Mail and The Times are already criticising the government robustly and I suspect a divide in the party is starting to emerge with Gove no doubt ready to make his move given half the chance .The UK they started to work on in the mid 70's and what you see today neoliberalism isn't something many Tories and donors want to lose a grip on , even a pandemic would present an opportunity to shrink the state even more for some of this lot .Johnson may have other ideas given his craving for adulation and with an eye on his ratings with the public , bear in mind Johnson is in this job for himself and believes in nowt other than to remain popular , he's not even a Brexiter in reality , that's just the ship he jumped on to get where he is , as a journalist and Mayor Of London he was pro EU .If Johnson starts going away from the idealism he's heading for big trouble within the party and not even Thatcher won that battle when they turned on her .Very interesting to see how this plays out .
The country does not want a left wing government and we have to accept that , far too much fire and brimstone and it scares the electorate to death .
There is a middle ground. Clem Attlee found it. In 1945, he was a dull, organised, principled QC, facing a mega-star popular hero immediately after an enormous national crisis that had wrecked the economy.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on May 03, 2020, 12:08:34 pmThere is a middle ground. Clem Attlee found it. In 1945, he was a dull, organised, principled QC, facing a mega-star popular hero immediately after an enormous national crisis that had wrecked the economy.Apologies Billy I presumed when you said Attlee found the middle ground this was in the centre.Presumably in your world the centre is some place other than in the middle? Who knew.
Quote from: tyke1962 on May 03, 2020, 01:37:00 pmThe country does not want a left wing government and we have to accept that , far too much fire and brimstone and it scares the electorate to death .Not sure I agree with that. The parties to the left of the center have usually collectively beaten the ones on the right of the center. One of the main issues is competition, there's more vying for you vote on the left than the right. Obviously FPTP is also a big one, change that to STV and it'll make the government a lot more representative of this country.2019Right leaning - Brexit Party, Conservatives - 14.6mLeft leaning - Labour, Green, SNP, Lib Dems - 16m2017Right leaning - Conservatives, UKIP - 14.2mLeft leaning - Labour, Green, SNP, Lib Dems - 16.75mNote: I'm not saying these parties are extreme left or right and Lib Dems are more Centrists but I seem them swapping votes with parties on the left than the right.
Quote from: wilts rover on May 03, 2020, 03:06:37 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on May 03, 2020, 12:08:34 pmThere is a middle ground. Clem Attlee found it. In 1945, he was a dull, organised, principled QC, facing a mega-star popular hero immediately after an enormous national crisis that had wrecked the economy.Apologies Billy I presumed when you said Attlee found the middle ground this was in the centre.Presumably in your world the centre is some place other than in the middle? Who knew.Please read my entire post and if you are going to quote me, please don't do so out of context. There's enough of that going on as it is.I meant middle ground as in being able to square the circle of being left wing and winning elections. Not political middle ground. You have this strange obsession with me being someone occupying the centre of the political spectrum.
Blair's government sold one of the biggest lies ever sold to the British public and took us into a war that cost lives of our soldiers and is still playing out to this day, impoverished millions in the middle east and empowered Iran. He also loaded up the NHS with millions of pounds of debt at extortionate interest rates which we are still paying for to build those hospitals. And the minimum wage became the norm for millions of workers for a generation even though it was below what a real living wage should have been.
Iraq was a horrific mistake and I've never quite figured out what it was that drove Blair to it.Two possibilities as far as I can see.1) Blair's Govt had come to power promising an "ethical foreign policy". In the 6-7 years before Labour came to power, the West had sat on its hands when bestial war crimes were being committed in the Balkans and in Rwanda and Congo. And Robin Cook as Labour's Foreign Secretary was, I think, sincere in stating that we had an obligation in the post-Cold War world to do better than that. British forces had lived up to that in putting down the horrific civil war in Sierra Leone and then Blair & Bush did the right thing in intervening in Kosovo to stop another Bosnia from happening. One argument is that Blair just got too messianic and thought that we could roll that into a far more complex problem like improving Iraq by getting rid of Saddam. 2) Bush was going into Iraq whatever. And Blair saw Britain's role with America as McMillan did with Kennedy - to be the wise old head constraining and advising them. Which required us to stay on board.The first doesn't stack up as a credible argument, because even a cursory look showed that invading Iraq was going to be a nightmare. There was no way the country was going to be stable without a hard man in charge.The second - well if you are going to be a wiser, older friend, you do it like Wilson did with Johnson over Vietnam. By telling them frankly that they are wrong, practically and morally and that we are not going to join them.However you look at it, it was an appalling decision.
Jenny Formby has resigned which will allow Starmer to have a closer supporter in that position.
Wilts.I apologise for my poor phrasing earlier. When I said, "I agree that factionalism is a cancer on the Left. That's why the People's Front of Judea scene was such barbed humour." I was meaning the entire spectrum of the Left. My apologies if that wasn't clear. In fairness though, I have asked you and others in here who I'm sure would claim to be further to the Left than me if they voted and campaigned for Brown in 2010. Those who didn't are on thin ice criticising those who did that for both Brown and Corbyn.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on May 03, 2020, 08:27:42 pmWilts.I apologise for my poor phrasing earlier. When I said, "I agree that factionalism is a cancer on the Left. That's why the People's Front of Judea scene was such barbed humour." I was meaning the entire spectrum of the Left. My apologies if that wasn't clear. In fairness though, I have asked you and others in here who I'm sure would claim to be further to the Left than me if they voted and campaigned for Brown in 2010. Those who didn't are on thin ice criticising those who did that for both Brown and Corbyn. Billy, there is no need to apolgise, just take a minute to review your post before pressing send.Please don't be offended as I mean this in all comradeship and friendship but you do have a tendency to preach and sermonise in your posts. The above being a perfect example of that.This has begun in a debate over how left wing the policies of the Atlee government were. Why on earth have you mentioned Gordon Brown and people being on thin ice for critising you in a reply to it? take it up with them! This is a rhetorical question btw.