Congratualtions Keir Starmer

[Bentley Bullet]

Apology accepted. You might call it going round in circles, I call it putting a point across. You seem to agree with my point but feel the need to argue the toss about it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Go and read the previous exchange. It's not difficult.

I'll make it easy for you in fact. Here was my response.

https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=276622.msg965023#msg965023

What do you take issue with in that post?

By the way, for the record, Belgium (who have managed this epidemic very badly) have right from the start included in their daily figures all cases where CV-19 was included on the death certificate, whether or not the deceased had tested positive. That inevitably means that they have recorded more deaths relatively than our headline figures which are released every day. The ONS does release figures (seriously backdated) for us which are equivalent. Going on the numbers released by the ONS today, on 1 May, we had just over 40,000 deaths in which CV-19 was included on the death certificate, so that would be about 63 deaths per 100,000 population, compared with Belgium's 76 in the link you posted. So yes, possibly Belgium is having a marginally worse outcome than us. We'll know in a couple of weeks time when our data has caught up.

None of that changes the main thrust of my point. Which was that, whichever way you look at it, we are in a group of countries that are at the worst end of outcomes in Europe. And since I'm a patriot and I love this country, I'd like to know why and and like us to learn the lessons that we got wrong and that Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, Portugal, Greece and Norway have done much, much better on. had we managed this epidemic like they have, we'd currently have 40-50,000 people alive today who are now dead. And we'd have a hell of a lot less economic damage.

I truly do not understand why anyone wouldn't want to face up to that and learn from it. Unless they don't want to know the reasons because it might make them have to re-evaluate their political beliefs.

[SydneyRover]

It's funny, whenever I read a thread where bb is involved it always reminds me of the show about nothing ............ now what was it's name 

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. Of course I want to know why those countries have done much better than us. I'm questioning the league table that shows EVERY country doing better than us.

Regarding the chart I posted, I've already conceded that the table showing deaths per 1000 population has shortcomings. Do you concede that the chart we use as the default one showing the UK at the top of the death list table is also flawed, in respect of the different methods of calculation that the countries use?

[MachoMadness]

Question. At PMQs, Starmer asked Johnson about the government advice that states people in care homes are unlikely to be infected. Johnson flat out lied and said that was never the advice. But, on the government website:


Is Johnson not now on the hook for lying to the Commons? Of course nothing will happen, but is flatly lying at PMQs really the new normal?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Question. At PMQs, Starmer asked Johnson about the government advice that states people in care homes are unlikely to be infected. Johnson flat out lied and said that was never the advice. But, on the government website:


Is Johnson not now on the hook for lying to the Commons? Of course nothing will happen, but is flatly lying at PMQs really the new normal?

Cue a "why is everybody trying to bring down the country?" whinge in reply!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Question. At PMQs, Starmer asked Johnson about the government advice that states people in care homes are unlikely to be infected. Johnson flat out lied and said that was never the advice. But, on the government website:


Is Johnson not now on the hook for lying to the Commons? Of course nothing will happen, but is flatly lying at PMQs really the new normal?

Of course it is the new normal. No-one gives a f**k about it any more. Just look at some of the attitudes to lying in here.

[foxbat]

another masterclass from Kier Starner. dePfeffel piffwaffle exposed again as the pantomime clown with no real idea what's happening.  As has been pointed out Tory voters keep trying to insist he is doing a good job , because he says he is, in true Trump style.
This Government needs bringing down.

[tyke1962]

another masterclass from Kier Starner. dePfeffel piffwaffle exposed again as the pantomime clown with no real idea what's happening.  As has been pointed out Tory voters keep trying to insist he is doing a good job , because he says he is, in true Trump style.
This Government needs bringing down.

Piece by piece and bit by bit SKS exposes the Johnson government's handling of the pandemic .

There is no one question hit for the newspaper headline the following morning and soon forgotten about .

SKS is merely building his case , every question asked is based on the governments own handling of the pandemic and their own words and when that question is attempted to be brushed away SKS produces the hardcopy evidence .

SKS is strangling Johnson with his own government's words .

There is no route out of this other than to ignore the question , answer about something entirely different from the original question raised or lie , he could tell the truth of course but let's be realistic .

Johnson appears to do all three and therefore exposes himself to the public .

There is no raised voices , emotional rants or even soundbites , just calm and calculating questions sourced from the government's own words .

Johnson isn't at PMQ's he's in the witness stand defending himself and his government , there is no counter attack from Johnson towards SKS , he's all on to get out of this cross examination in one piece .

He told Raab the other week he was on notice to produce some figures regarding deaths in care homes and he's told Johnson he wants answers to one question he failed to answer at all .

Psychologically Starmer is assuming control whilst the Tories are scampering for the facts SKS has asked for .

It's a remarkable spectacle to witness , Starmer's got a government with an 80 seat majority scared shyteless .

If PMQ's decided elections the Tories would be dead in the water already .

Alas they don't but it's a real confident start from SKS  .

[Filo]

From the Evening Standard

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/pmqs-keir-starmer-boris-johnson-interrogation-coronavirus-a4439686.html

[BillyStubbsTears]

"Johnson isn't at PMQ's he's in the witness stand defending himself and his government"

And THAT is precisely how PMQs is supposed to work in a properly functioning system. It's about a skilled and able Opposition holding the Govt to account, and about giving the public the chance to see, on a week-by-week basis, which of the choice of leaders seems the more intelligent, incisive, honest and competent.

The problem is that it has become like a chimps' tea party over the past 20-odd years. But then we never had a crisis like this to deal with in those times. Maybe one thing we'll learn from this crisis is just how important intelligence, incisiveness, honesty and competency are in our leaders. We can but hope.

[Filo]

How many times did he look around for the baying mob to back him up today, only to see Hancock sat there nodding like a dashboard toy

[BillyStubbsTears]

From the Evening Standard

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/pmqs-keir-starmer-boris-johnson-interrogation-coronavirus-a4439686.html

Interesting article. I think this sums up the new Parliamentary face-off.

"Starmer is not looking for quick victories to lead the Six o’clock News each Wednesday but is far more dangerous. Instead he is going to spend weeks building up a case against the Government and forcing the PM to comment on every decision.

"Johnson’s technique is to admit freely to the awfulness of the coronavirus death toll without ever confessing to culpability, then move the conversation on with a n announcement or a bon mot. It is clever and strong politics which works brilliantly on an emotional level with punters who see him acknowledging the horror of coronavirus with apparent candour. Which is why these mild questions about detail posed by Sir Keir are so potentially deadly because when the daily emotion dies down, people will be asking how did this happen and who is to blame."

Personally, I'm finding the empty HoC far more conducive to seeing serious discussion take place. You don't have 600 people cheering on their side in a court. Why should you in the HoC? As that article says:

"In a chamber where gurning and pantomime emotions are the traditional currency of Opposition, the former Director of Public Prosecutions is as different as the socially-distanced chamber itself. A Kinnock or a Corbyn would, in a packed chamber, have shrieked and shouted and ultimately rallied the Tory mob behind their leader. But Starmer served his killer soundbite ice cold, leaving it hanging in the near silent chamber."

[tyke1962]

From my favourite columnist the brilliant John Crace from The Guardian .

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/13/boris-johnson-resorts-to-bluster-under-keir-starmer-cross-examination

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'll guarantee you that when the HoC is full again for PMQs, the Tory backbenchers will be briefed to raise hell every time Starmer speaks. They know that they cannot afford to allow this calm, dispassionate, clinical unpicking of Govt policy every week. They will have to try to unsettle Starmer and male him raise his voice to be heard. That will demonstrate just what a sorry state our politics is in.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST. Of course I want to know why those countries have done much better than us. I'm questioning the league table that shows EVERY country doing better than us.

Regarding the chart I posted, I've already conceded that the table showing deaths per 1000 population has shortcomings. Do you concede that the chart we use as the default one showing the UK at the top of the death list table is also flawed, in respect of the different methods of calculation that the countries use?

BB. Totally the wrong thread for this, but I'm going to have one, final, tired go at trying to explain.

It doesn't really matter whether we are top, 2nd or 3rd in the list. That is obsessing about second order things. What matters is whether we have done a relatively good job or a relatively bad job at managing this crisis.

Dispassionately, looking at the data whichever way you wish, we have unquestionably done a very bad job by international comparisons. We are not on our own but that is irrelevant. We have done far, far worse than some similar countries.

But. Since you have a fixation who is top of the list and with the deaths per 100k population, I'll come back to those now. I explained, patiently yesterday why simply looking at a list or a graph of where each country was on a given day is badly flawed if you are trying to draw international comparisons. Because a) it depends on where each country is in the development of its epidemic and b) countries which went into the epidemic late should be expected to do better than countries which went in early (because they had prior warning to get their shit in their socks).

This is how it turns out if you allow for the epidemics getting up to speed at different times in different countries.

As i say, we are in a group of badly performing countries. And now you can see that it is silly to look at the data you posted yesterday and conclude that Italy has handled things worse than we have. They went into the crisis well before us, but they have a slightly better outcome trend. Chances are, I'd say, looking at that graph, it's a toss up whether we end up worse than Spain or not. But it doesn't really matter.

The big take home is that Germany had 3 weeks notice and they crushed the epidemic.

We had 2.5 weeks notice and we failed.

We have huge lessons to learn and we need to make damn sure that the people responsible for the failures in Feb and March are stopped from making them again in June and July. And eventually held to account at a Royal Inquiry.

No arguments on that.

[tyke1962]

I'll guarantee you that when the HoC is full again for PMQs, the Tory backbenchers will be briefed to raise hell every time Starmer speaks. They know that they cannot afford to allow this calm, dispassionate, clinical unpicking of Govt policy every week. They will have to try to unsettle Starmer and male him raise his voice to be heard. That will demonstrate just what a sorry state our politics is in.

Couldn't agree more Billy but just consider this .

How long will it be before social distancing is something of the past ?

A bloody long time away .

By the time these restrictions are lifted if they ever leave us that is this clown will already suffered even more humiliations .

This is far from the way I wanted things let me be clear on that but I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say the ducks are starting to move in to line since that humiliation last December .

An almost empty HOC , a PM totally out of his depth up against probably the sharpest mind that Labour have had in modern times with a depression coming our way that nobody but someone aged in their 90's have ever seen .

The Telegraph and Times already breaking rank .

Personally I don't think Johnson will even make it to the next election and by that time the damage has already been done by definition .

SKS is coming across as smart , credible with no political skeletons in the cupboard , the Sun and Mail have no ammunition .

The country will be ripe for a serious politician to take over from the bullshyte operators .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke

Except the Leader of the House wants all MPs back in the HoC from the start of June...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52606982

I'd be tempted to let the Tories fill their benches cheek by jowl if they want and boycott the House on safety grounds if I were LotO. You might lose a bit of air time at first, but the natural outcome would be a fair few lopped off the 85 seat majority if you give it a month or two.

[tyke1962]

Tyke

Except the Leader of the House wants all MPs back in the HoC from the start of June...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52606982

I'd be tempted to let the Tories fill their benches cheek by jowl if they want and boycott the House on safety grounds if I were LotO. You might lose a bit of air time at first, but the natural outcome would be a fair few lopped off the 85 seat majority if you give it a month or two.

He's a cunning operator is JRM , many underestimate him but he'd even give Starmer a run for his money in a debate or PMQ's .

Mind you I'm saying that but Starmer wiped the floor with him on the Brexit exchanges but none the less you have to watch him closely .

I watch and read a lot of Tory content and I have done for years .

There clever bstrds I'll give em that , to be able to protect and represent about 2% of the people of this country and con the rest in to voting for em is remarkable to say the least .

You can never underestimate em , that I do know .

I've always found the best way to deal with Tory voters is to ditch the standard slagging em off for simply committing the crime of being Tories .

What have they done for you in government is a good one for the more recent Tory voters , they've held office for 10 years btw , give me one thing that's massively helped you ?

Older voters are fertile ground too , when you voted for Thatcher and you bought your council house does it bother you your kids haven't the same opportunity and are actually poorer than you ? , now those feckers do squirm .

The standard answer is well they are at Uni so they have every chance .

Aye and who made that possible ? ...... more squirm .

The thing is Billy if everyone who voted was politically aware the Tories would never win which is how they pull it off because they are bloody good at what they do .

[SydneyRover]

Afraid that won't work either Tyke we've repeatedly asked the tory defenders club here to name something positive about brexit or to defend Austerity ............. blank

[tyke1962]

Afraid that won't work either Tyke we've repeatedly asked the tory defenders club here to name something positive about brexit or to defend Austerity ............. blank

There's more to it than that Sydney in my humble opinion .

We still have this thing in this country that says man who went to Eton and Oxford University is the man for the job of running the country based on that with a confident approach .

It's my opinion it breeds confident idiots , I give you Cameron , Osborne and Johnson .

You get an authentic women like Jess Philips who probably represents a far bigger proportion of society in the UK , not without flaws don't get me wrong but working class women with a platform and yet ......

This country is fundamentally flawed by class , it's not like it was with top hats in your face ,  no it's actually worse because it's subtle now but it exists just as much as it ever did .

We've actually had to elect a bloke who looks like a tory , speaks like a tory but with a heart n soul labour DNA just to get back in the game .

It's not a poor choice by any means don't get me wrong but hey ho he's been knighted , the Telegraph and Times can hang a hat on it ...... for now .

The same questioning and competence from Jess Philips today in the HOC  would have seen a different perspective , I can almost guarantee it .

Blair recognised it only too well and its a tragedy for this country that we've gone back to the subtle top hats .

At least Thatcher and Major came from different stock , I'll give em that .

The question of the EU is a proper old left argument Sydney just to put my personal touch to your post .

And no I don't want to open up old wounds again , we move on .

[tyke1962]

Sydney

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible and some of the present hierarchy with rather more credibility i could be talked around .

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

I've personally seen no evidence that it's the case and they have a mindset that they have a project to complete and that is that .

You can't even negotiate with these people , I can't have that because this country put an enormous amount of taxpayers money in to this thing and we should be heard .

I recognise its not without consequences , I always did .

But fuq em anyway if that's the case , I don't do personally guns to my head as a proven point of being right .

I had one vote and I used it based on not the likes of Johnson but what I thought for myself .

We move on .

[SydneyRover]

Afraid that won't work either Tyke we've repeatedly asked the tory defenders club here to name something positive about brexit or to defend Austerity ............. blank

There's more to it than that Sydney in my humble opinion .

We still have this thing in this country that says man who went to Eton and Oxford University is the man for the job of running the country based on that with a confident approach .

It's my opinion it breeds confident idiots , I give you Cameron , Osborne and Johnson .

You get an authentic women like Jess Philips who probably represents a far bigger proportion of society in the UK , not without flaws don't get me wrong but working class women with a platform and yet ......

This country is fundamentally flawed by class , it's not like it was with top hats in your face ,  no it's actually worse because it's subtle now but it exists just as much as it ever did .

We've actually had to elect a bloke who looks like a tory , speaks like a tory but with a heart n soul labour DNA just to get back in the game .

It's not a poor choice by any means don't get me wrong but hey ho he's been knighted , the Telegraph and Times can hang a hat on it ...... for now .

The same questioning and competence from Jess Philips today in the HOC  would have seen a different perspective , I can almost guarantee it .

Blair recognised it only too well and its a tragedy for this country that we've gone back to the subtle top hats .

At least Thatcher and Major came from different stock , I'll give em that .

The question of the EU is a proper old left argument Sydney just to put my personal touch to your post .

And no I don't want to open up old wounds again , we move on .

Yes agreed the public school shit does breed idiots and the networking ensures they are overly represented in the top of the public service and any area where public money is spent. Further the propaganda that the tories are better managers of the economy is founded on this idea that they are better educated therefore better able to ......... you name it ...........

[Glyn_Wigley]

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

If someone went to the NUM and wanted all the benefits of NUM membership but without having to pay any subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

[tyke1962]

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

If someone went to the NUM and wanted all the benefits of NUM membership but without having to pay any subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

It's an interesting comparison Glyn , I could see it as a bit of straw from your good self but I'll take it on none the less .

I was a much younger man back then and I was only ever a member , I actually left the industry well before the curtain finally came down , my choice .

Looking back at the age I am today I can see the NUM had some significant flaws , whilst I agree we were right to defend our jobs and communities , I was out on strike for the duration we also lacked a significant democratic element .

A democratic element that proved to be our downfall and marked the end of the industry as a consequence .

There was no attempt by the leadership of the NUM to compromise what so ever and as I say the decision not to ballot proved to be a fatal error .

The rest as they say is history and the Nottingham miners left the NUM and paddled their own canoe .

There are comparisons to be made with the European Union and how it's panned out here in the UK and we've decided to follow our own path too .

It's on the record what the likes of Junker thought about democracy .

I'm going to leave it at that because we will only end up opening old wounds and this thing has done enough damage within the Labour Movement .

[SydneyRover]

Peter Walker Guardian live:

Labour has expressed alarm after a series of Conservative MPs, including a minister, shared a video tweeted by a hard-right Twitter account which falsely claimed Sir Keir Starmer obstructed the targeting of grooming gang victims when he led the Crown Prosecution Service.

The tweeted video was shared by Nadine Dorries, who is now a junior health minister, as well as Telford MP Lucy Allan and Maria Caulfield, who represents Lewes. All expressed alarm at what the video purported to show, with Dorries calling it “revealing”.

The 22-second clip from 2013 shows Starmer apparently recounting reasons why victims of grooming gangs might not be credible, talking about “the assumption that a victim of child sexual abuse will swiftly report what’s happened to them to the police; will be able to give a coherent, consistent account, first time; that they will not themselves have engaged in any offending or other behaviour; and that they will not have misused drugs or alcohol at any stage”.

The original tweeter, who also regularly posts anti-Islam messages and other hard-right content, titled the clip, “Keir Starmer explains why he didn’t prosecute grooming gangs when he was head if the Crown Prosecution Service”.

However, a fuller version of the video shows this is completely misleading. Starmer is in fact explaining why he had changed the prosecution guidelines, to move away from “a number of assumptions, which didn’t withstand scrutiny”.

[MachoMadness]

To be fair, most of them have now deleted their tweets. Although it doesn't take a genius to realise that libelling a QC isn't the best idea.

[SydneyRover]

So keen to drag Starmer down they haven't got time to think.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

I don't think Glyn was asking for a critique of the NUM.

There's a simpler question. If you paid your subs to an organisation and some asked for all the benefits of that organisation but refused to pay stubs, what would you say to them?

[Filo]

To be fair, most of them have now deleted their tweets. Although it doesn't take a genius to realise that libelling a QC isn't the best idea.

A nicely worded letter asking them to apologise publicly would be enough for their arses to drop out and the added bonus of embarrassing them should do the trick