Congratualtions Keir Starmer

[Glyn_Wigley]

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

If someone went to the NUM and wanted all the benefits of NUM membership but without having to pay any subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

It's an interesting comparison Glyn , I could see it as a bit of straw from your good self but I'll take it on none the less .

I was a much younger man back then and I was only ever a member , I actually left the industry well before the curtain finally came down , my choice .

Looking back at the age I am today I can see the NUM had some significant flaws , whilst I agree we were right to defend our jobs and communities , I was out on strike for the duration we also lacked a significant democratic element .

A democratic element that proved to be our downfall and marked the end of the industry as a consequence .

There was no attempt by the leadership of the NUM to compromise what so ever and as I say the decision not to ballot proved to be a fatal error .

The rest as they say is history and the Nottingham miners left the NUM and paddled their own canoe .

There are comparisons to be made with the European Union and how it's panned out here in the UK and we've decided to follow our own path too .

It's on the record what the likes of Junker thought about democracy .

I'm going to leave it at that because we will only end up opening old wounds and this thing has done enough damage within the Labour Movement .

You've taken what I said completely the wrong way. I'm not talking about any internal NUM politics, I just used them as an organisation you're familiar with.

Perhaps if I put it this way instead: If someone went to an organisation you're a member of (that benefits those who are it's paying members) and wanted some or all the benefits of that organisation, but without having to pay any membership subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

[ravenrover]

The attempts by the Tories to rake the muck on SKS has started, prepare for more attempts after the way he keeps skewering Boris

[BillyStubbsTears]

Health Minister Nadine Dorries has deleted her re-tweeting if a far right disinformation campaign.

But the internet doesn't forget.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlansiPhone/status/1260898051985637377

She will, of course, publicly and unreservedly apologies for this libellous and grave error of judgement, don't you think?

Maybe not, eh?

After all she never apologised for castigating the Mayor of London over Asian gang paedophilia in Rotherham. (No, *I* can't think why Khan should be responsible either. Anybody?)

[Filo]

Yesterdays PMQ’s obviously hurt 😂😂

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just look again at what Dorries, a Govt minister re-tweeted.

And look at what the video actually said.

https://mobile.twitter.com/_WilliamCole/status/1260863677101735937

As I keep saying. There IS a massive problem with deliberate deception and misinformation in politics these days. And overwhelmingly it does not come from the Left.

This little story is on a par with the disgusting video that Leave.EU pumped out, purporting to show EU Brexit negotiators admitting that they were trying to trap the British. In fact, the footage was from a documentary, where the negotiators were discussing how they had to be fair and transparent so they wouldn't run the risk of the British getting the feeling they had been trapped. The Leave.EU video cut out that context. Then editted the visuals to make it look as though this was a secret recording.

Absolutely disgusting and it really ought to be a criminal offence. At the very least, it ought to give people in that side of politics concern about the veracity of the lines they are fed day after day after day. Instead, there appears to be no questioning from the Right at all. Just onto the next lie.

[MachoMadness]

Health Minister Nadine Dorries has deleted her re-tweeting if a far right disinformation campaign.

But the internet doesn't forget.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlansiPhone/status/1260898051985637377

She will, of course, publicly and unreservedly apologies for this libellous and grave error of judgement, don't you think?

Maybe not, eh?

After all she never apologised for castigating the Mayor of London over Asian gang paedophilia in Rotherham. (No, *I* can't think why Khan should be responsible either. Anybody?)

Think that's exactly the point BST. The internet doesn't forget. The people who they want to have seen that video will have already seen it, but they can say they did the right thing and deleted it. Best of both worlds. Get the message out, poison the discourse, then pretend they haven't done anything and delete it. Textbook tactics from the new Right. And it'll work, too. Just like how Corbyn was a Jew-hater, and Brown bankrupted the country, and Miliband was from a family of communist extremists, Starmer will be the bloke who let Savile get away with it. Mark my words.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Just look again at what Dorries, a Govt minister re-tweeted.

And look at what the video actually said.

https://mobile.twitter.com/_WilliamCole/status/1260863677101735937

As I keep saying. There IS a massive problem with deliberate deception and misinformation in politics these days. And overwhelmingly it does not come from the Left.

This little story is on a par with the disgusting video that Leave.EU pumped out, purporting to show EU Brexit negotiators admitting that they were trying to trap the British. In fact, the footage was from a documentary, where the negotiators were discussing how they had to be fair and transparent so they wouldn't run the risk of the British getting the feeling they had been trapped. The Leave.EU video cut out that context. Then editted the visuals to make it look as though this was a secret recording.

Absolutely disgusting and it really ought to be a criminal offence. At the very least, it ought to give people in that side of politics concern about the veracity of the lines they are fed day after day after day. Instead, there appears to be no questioning from the Right at all. Just onto the next lie.

Isn't re-editing it a breach of the copyright of the original filmmaker? That might have to be the way into holding the distorters to account. Those who retweet would be guilty of distributing copyright material too.

[IDM]

Isn’t claiming that someone said something which they didn’t actually say, a libel offence.?

As for being able to claim they never did something after having taken the offending tweets down, don’t they think that some people won’t have taken screenshots.?  Or that twitter itself cannot retrieve deleted tweets.?

Things can be removed, but not unsaid.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Isn’t claiming that someone said something which they didn’t actually say, a libel offence.?

As for being able to claim they never did something after having taken the offending tweets down, don’t they think that some people won’t have taken screenshots.?  Or that twitter itself cannot retrieve deleted tweets.?

Things can be removed, but not unsaid.

If it's film of them saying it that wouldn't work though. It's all about the re-editing and misrepresentation.

[MachoMadness]

You say that, Glyn, but if someone perfects Deepfake technology then we're in for a rough time.

[idler]

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

If someone went to the NUM and wanted all the benefits of NUM membership but without having to pay any subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

I worked at a firm called A E Turbines in Leeds in the 1980s. It was a closed union shop. The only way you could not pay union subs was to give the equivalent amount to charity. It was still annoying that they were willing to accept shorter hours, pay rises, holidays and a sick scheme all negotiated by the union.
I left after eighteen and a half years and the work force had dropped massively  from the 2,500 or so in 1985 when I joined. I think that there is about 250 now plus some agency workers. The union has lost all of it’s power.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You say that, Glyn, but if someone perfects Deepfake technology then we're in for a rough time.

That is the nightmare scenario, definitely. Democracy is out the window when that happens. You can't have a functioning democracy when there is no concept of objective truth with which to use as a basis for making rational decisions.

[tyke1962]

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

If someone went to the NUM and wanted all the benefits of NUM membership but without having to pay any subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

It's an interesting comparison Glyn , I could see it as a bit of straw from your good self but I'll take it on none the less .

I was a much younger man back then and I was only ever a member , I actually left the industry well before the curtain finally came down , my choice .

Looking back at the age I am today I can see the NUM had some significant flaws , whilst I agree we were right to defend our jobs and communities , I was out on strike for the duration we also lacked a significant democratic element .

A democratic element that proved to be our downfall and marked the end of the industry as a consequence .

There was no attempt by the leadership of the NUM to compromise what so ever and as I say the decision not to ballot proved to be a fatal error .

The rest as they say is history and the Nottingham miners left the NUM and paddled their own canoe .

There are comparisons to be made with the European Union and how it's panned out here in the UK and we've decided to follow our own path too .

It's on the record what the likes of Junker thought about democracy .

I'm going to leave it at that because we will only end up opening old wounds and this thing has done enough damage within the Labour Movement .

You've taken what I said completely the wrong way. I'm not talking about any internal NUM politics, I just used them as an organisation you're familiar with.

Perhaps if I put it this way instead: If someone went to an organisation you're a member of (that benefits those who are it's paying members) and wanted some or all the benefits of that organisation, but without having to pay any membership subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

When I became a shop steward after leaving the mining industry we had a couple of lads in the office who wouldn't join the union , mind you one of em did have a picture of Thatcher on his desk .

I didn't particularly like it that they automatically got what we negotiated for them but I didn't take it any further than that , I talked to them and didn't hold it against them but at the same time it didn't sit right with me either .

I'd heard enough about workplace , family and friends relationships breaking down during and after the strike to go down that route .

[tyke1962]

You say that, Glyn, but if someone perfects Deepfake technology then we're in for a rough time.

That is the nightmare scenario, definitely. Democracy is out the window when that happens. You can't have a functioning democracy when there is no concept of objective truth with which to use as a basis for making rational decisions.

Just read about this , Tory government refusing to condemn it with a no comment .

I was led to believe the case fell apart because three of the girls wouldn't take the stand .

No case is going to trial if there's a good chance it will collapse due to lack of evidence and waste taxpayers money in the process .

Mind you the Tories have always had their own ideas about justice when the cap fits , Orgreave and Hillsborough jump off the page .

[Glyn_Wigley]

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

If someone went to the NUM and wanted all the benefits of NUM membership but without having to pay any subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

It's an interesting comparison Glyn , I could see it as a bit of straw from your good self but I'll take it on none the less .

I was a much younger man back then and I was only ever a member , I actually left the industry well before the curtain finally came down , my choice .

Looking back at the age I am today I can see the NUM had some significant flaws , whilst I agree we were right to defend our jobs and communities , I was out on strike for the duration we also lacked a significant democratic element .

A democratic element that proved to be our downfall and marked the end of the industry as a consequence .

There was no attempt by the leadership of the NUM to compromise what so ever and as I say the decision not to ballot proved to be a fatal error .

The rest as they say is history and the Nottingham miners left the NUM and paddled their own canoe .

There are comparisons to be made with the European Union and how it's panned out here in the UK and we've decided to follow our own path too .

It's on the record what the likes of Junker thought about democracy .

I'm going to leave it at that because we will only end up opening old wounds and this thing has done enough damage within the Labour Movement .

You've taken what I said completely the wrong way. I'm not talking about any internal NUM politics, I just used them as an organisation you're familiar with.

Perhaps if I put it this way instead: If someone went to an organisation you're a member of (that benefits those who are it's paying members) and wanted some or all the benefits of that organisation, but without having to pay any membership subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

When I became a shop steward after leaving the mining industry we had a couple of lads in the office who wouldn't join the union , mind you one of em did have a picture of Thatcher on his desk .

I didn't particularly like it that they automatically got what we negotiated for them but I didn't take it any further than that , I talked to them and didn't hold it against them but at the same time it didn't sit right with me either .

I'd heard enough about workplace , family and friends relationships breaking down during and after the strike to go down that route .

Any chance of telling us what you'd do?

[MachoMadness]

Apparently the MPs who tweeted that video have been reprimanded by the Tory whips. Must have been awkward considering one of them actually is a Tory whip.

[wilts rover]

Just for a bit of balance. Don't forget that the current Prime Minister when asked about his opinion of the investigation of child abuse said, live on LBC radio, this was 'spaffing money up the wall'.

[tyke1962]

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

If someone went to the NUM and wanted all the benefits of NUM membership but without having to pay any subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

It's an interesting comparison Glyn , I could see it as a bit of straw from your good self but I'll take it on none the less .

I was a much younger man back then and I was only ever a member , I actually left the industry well before the curtain finally came down , my choice .

Looking back at the age I am today I can see the NUM had some significant flaws , whilst I agree we were right to defend our jobs and communities , I was out on strike for the duration we also lacked a significant democratic element .

A democratic element that proved to be our downfall and marked the end of the industry as a consequence .

There was no attempt by the leadership of the NUM to compromise what so ever and as I say the decision not to ballot proved to be a fatal error .

The rest as they say is history and the Nottingham miners left the NUM and paddled their own canoe .

There are comparisons to be made with the European Union and how it's panned out here in the UK and we've decided to follow our own path too .

It's on the record what the likes of Junker thought about democracy .

I'm going to leave it at that because we will only end up opening old wounds and this thing has done enough damage within the Labour Movement .

You've taken what I said completely the wrong way. I'm not talking about any internal NUM politics, I just used them as an organisation you're familiar with.

Perhaps if I put it this way instead: If someone went to an organisation you're a member of (that benefits those who are it's paying members) and wanted some or all the benefits of that organisation, but without having to pay any membership subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

When I became a shop steward after leaving the mining industry we had a couple of lads in the office who wouldn't join the union , mind you one of em did have a picture of Thatcher on his desk .

I didn't particularly like it that they automatically got what we negotiated for them but I didn't take it any further than that , I talked to them and didn't hold it against them but at the same time it didn't sit right with me either .

I'd heard enough about workplace , family and friends relationships breaking down during and after the strike to go down that route .

Any chance of telling us what you'd do?

There aren't any solutions Glyn , the time for flexibility was when we were members of the EU but they never really believed we'd leave so we were rebuffed .

What's emerged since is punishment politics from them for us having the audacity to leave and a total meltdown of the political system here .

There are no workable solutions under those conditions and I expect we will leave without a trade deal at the end of the year .

This , that and what if doesn't come in to it so there's little point in pressing me further .

[Glyn_Wigley]

If I could see a willingness from the EU to be flexible

I'm a pragmatic voter and from a Union background post NUM I might add with a compromising mindset .

If someone went to the NUM and wanted all the benefits of NUM membership but without having to pay any subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

It's an interesting comparison Glyn , I could see it as a bit of straw from your good self but I'll take it on none the less .

I was a much younger man back then and I was only ever a member , I actually left the industry well before the curtain finally came down , my choice .

Looking back at the age I am today I can see the NUM had some significant flaws , whilst I agree we were right to defend our jobs and communities , I was out on strike for the duration we also lacked a significant democratic element .

A democratic element that proved to be our downfall and marked the end of the industry as a consequence .

There was no attempt by the leadership of the NUM to compromise what so ever and as I say the decision not to ballot proved to be a fatal error .

The rest as they say is history and the Nottingham miners left the NUM and paddled their own canoe .

There are comparisons to be made with the European Union and how it's panned out here in the UK and we've decided to follow our own path too .

It's on the record what the likes of Junker thought about democracy .

I'm going to leave it at that because we will only end up opening old wounds and this thing has done enough damage within the Labour Movement .

You've taken what I said completely the wrong way. I'm not talking about any internal NUM politics, I just used them as an organisation you're familiar with.

Perhaps if I put it this way instead: If someone went to an organisation you're a member of (that benefits those who are it's paying members) and wanted some or all the benefits of that organisation, but without having to pay any membership subs, how flexible and compromising would you have been with them?

When I became a shop steward after leaving the mining industry we had a couple of lads in the office who wouldn't join the union , mind you one of em did have a picture of Thatcher on his desk .

I didn't particularly like it that they automatically got what we negotiated for them but I didn't take it any further than that , I talked to them and didn't hold it against them but at the same time it didn't sit right with me either .

I'd heard enough about workplace , family and friends relationships breaking down during and after the strike to go down that route .

Any chance of telling us what you'd do?

There aren't any solutions Glyn , the time for flexibility was when we were members of the EU but they never really believed we'd leave so we were rebuffed .

What's emerged since is punishment politics from them for us having the audacity to leave and a total meltdown of the political system here .

There are no workable solutions under those conditions and I expect we will leave without a trade deal at the end of the year .

This , that and what if doesn't come in to it so there's little point in pressing me further .

What I don't get is what you're expecting them to be flexible about?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

We opted out of Schengen, the Euro and much of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the Working Time Directive.

For a dictatorial, centralised bureaucracy, the EU didn't half allow us a lot of flexibility. I've never understood what these great losses of liberty are that we ceded to the EU that required us to choose to lose 5-9% of GDP by leaving the SM and CU.

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

We opted out of Schengen, the Euro and much of the Charter of Fundamental Rights and the Working Time Directive.

For a doctorial, centralised bureaucracy, the EU didn't half allow us a lot of flexibility. I've never understood what these great losses of liberty are that we ceded to the EU that required us to choose to lose 5-9% of GDP by leaving the SM and CU.

Billy

I don't think we as a nation ever really embraced the European Union from start to finish , certainly not like many other european nations did .

We hadn't been in it two minutes before there was a referendum on the future of whether we remained .

The Left and the Right were joined at the hip on it , anytime that happens something definitely isn't right .

We've tolerated it at best and I think it's fair to say that .

We are different from those over the channel , there's no getting away from it , we are an island race with a huge colonial history and its in our DNA .

We ain't a problem with partnerships just as long as we are calling the shots or some bugger bails us out of the shyte such as the Americans in WW2 .

Most of the country love the Royals and all that pageantry and when the country goes to war with another country over some islands no bugger had ever heard of before we rejoice and wave the union jack when we reclaim em and then go back to forgetting they ever existed .

We don't understand what Spain's problem is with Gibraltar but wouldn't tolerate the Spanish if they governed the Isle Of Wight .

Don't get me started on Northern Ireland .

A bit of wriggle room on free movement may have seen Remain home and dry in my opinion Billy .

The worst thing about this whole bloody mess was Remainers getting on their soap box and telling the leavers they were racist , xenophobic , thick , stupid and ignorant .

The amount of personal abuse directed was a disgrace and it only led to Leavers sticking to their guns and sticking two fingers up which played out in the last election .

The Leave campaign knew which buttons to press , crudely and in many cases falsely too , I know that but here's the thing they understood the target audience and the Remain campaign never did connect , or didn't connect enough because they were only trying to sell us a product that was tolerable at best .

And there lies the problem today , there's  many in the country not ready for this liberal integration and getting told they are this , that and the other if they don't .

You can't make people be what you want them to be because if they get an opportunity to bury your mandate they will take it all day long and what's more if you try and snatch it away they will fight you with their teeth if they have to .

[Copps is Magic]

The Tory machine rolls on. 1% of those who saw the accusation will see the apology/redaction when it comes. Mission accomplished for them.

So many can't see through it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke mate.

I suggest you are selectively re-writing history.

1) There is nothing philosophically wrong with Right and Left being United on major matters. See: 1939...

2) Right and left weren't only united for membership of the EEC in 1975.  Benn and Powell were united on not staying in. Go figure...

3) We had a referendum in 1975 for one reason - because the Labour party was hopelessly split on the matter. Nothing else. The Bennite Left never accepted that defeat and that led to the disastrous split of the Labour party in 1981.

4) There is ample evidence that the British people changed attitudes to become far more "European" in the last quarter of the 20th century, before the fringes of the Right started changing opinions on the topic.

[tyke1962]

Tyke mate.

I suggest you are selectively re-writing history.

1) There is nothing philosophically wrong with Right and Left being United on major matters. See: 1939...

2) Right and left weren't only united for membership of the EEC in 1975.  Benn and Powell were united on not staying in. Go figure...

3) We had a referendum in 1975 for one reason - because the Labour party was hopelessly split on the matter. Nothing else. The Bennite Left never accepted that defeat and that led to the disastrous split of the Labour party in 1981.

4) There is ample evidence that the British people changed attitudes to become far more "European" in the last quarter of the 20th century, before the fringes of the Right started changing opinions on the topic.

Billy , the whole bloody trade union movement were anti Common Market in the 70's , the size and power they had back then would make the ERG today look like a cub scout movement .

We went kicking and bloody screaming in to this thing , watch the debates on YouTube from back then , they are seriously a good watch .

This thing had a lid on it for the most part but it was always simmering away and eventually the lid blew off and it was exposed .

If this country was comfortable within the EU then the result would have been a formality for Remain and that's despite Leaves attempts to play on prejudice .

70 % v 30% was the result you would have got if this country was comfortable within the EU in Remains favour .

Billy you only had 48% , Leave had 52% which to be honest wasn't great either in all honesty but I didn't decide what was the winning outcome and neither did I have any control over those tasked with delivering the dam thing .

I didn't vote for this clown or his ERG lick spittles or for Cameron and May .

If our party had actually anything good to offer the electorate it may have greatly helped your cause .

You know nobody looks towards Brussels with Remain eyes on and ever calls em out because it's far from beyond criticism and I'm being kind at that and what's more your intelligent and politically aware enough to know it isn't .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke

I said you were re-writing history. I stand by that.

The LEADERSHIP of unions was steadfastly against the EEC in the mid 70s. That's because it had, for the most part been taken over by the far-Left and was unrepresentative of the members (most of whom didn't vote in union leadership elections - a bit like today, where McCluskey has had a dominant position in the Labour movement despite being voted for by fewer than 6% of his members in the last leadership election).

The MEMBERSHIP was mostly pro-EEC.

I don't really want to get into the issues around the 2016 vote. We've thrashed through them for 4 years on here.

Regarding criticism of issues associated with the EU, you weren't here in 2010-13 when I was volcanic in my criticism of the German-led approach to the debt crisis. None of that has anything to do with the relative pros and cons of our membership.

My position is simple and can be summarised in 2 questions which I've repeated many times and I've never once had a decent answer:

1) What are the economic benefits that we get from leaving the EU that will balance the long-term loss of 5-9% of GDP that all credible economists predict?

2) What are the political benefits that we get from leaving the EU that will balance the weakening of a body that has been crucial in cementing peace, stability and democracy in the most dangerous region on Earth?

Give me simple, crisp answers to those questions and you will have done more than any Leave supporter has ever done before or since 2016.

[tyke1962]

Billy

I ain't ever going to say leaving the EU is the road to economic utopia , I'm a realist .

But I see all sorts of figures quoted for this that and the other for leaving the EU and to be honest I say to myself so what ?

The EU deliver austerity packages to those who don't fall in to line within the membership , who do these people think they are ?

Ask the working class of Greece , Ireland , Portugal , Italy and The Netherlands how that works out .

An austerity programme decided by people they've never voted for and what's more never even seen , it's one thing to have to accept austerity from your own government and quite another from an organisation outside of your borders .

So I'm afraid in my opinion there particular version of economic well being passes me by and I've yet to see the Armageddon predictions post Brexit actually play out in reality .

And post pandemic you don't need to guess what's coming for the Eurozone , the thing is there's nowt they can do either .

I'll tell you now they won't have it in the Eurozone even that idiot Veroffstadt was throwing his arms up the other day wanting the Commission otherwise known as The Syndicate to actually come up with some solutions .

They've gone too far with this shyte , trading deal no problem all the other cr@p well you got your answer four years ago in the UK .

As far as the mid 70's goes we will just have to agree to disagree Billy but British jobs for British workers carried some massive clout back then and they'd the power to make the argument .

[Glyn_Wigley]

You know nobody looks towards Brussels with Remain eyes on and ever calls em out because it's far from beyond criticism and I'm being kind at that and what's more your intelligent and politically aware enough to know it isn't .

Well this Remainer will always criticise CAP until it's reformed in a way that doesn't kill competition. It makes producers of certain goods set a price without any incentive to modernise production of be more efficient.

[SydneyRover]

Billy

I ain't ever going to say leaving the EU is the road to economic utopia , I'm a realist .

But I see all sorts of figures quoted for this that and the other for leaving the EU and to be honest I say to myself so what ?

The EU deliver austerity packages to those who don't fall in to line within the membership , who do these people think they are ?

Ask the working class of Greece , Ireland , Portugal , Italy and The Netherlands how that works out .

An austerity programme decided by people they've never voted for and what's more never even seen , it's one thing to have to accept austerity from your own government and quite another from an organisation outside of your borders .

So I'm afraid in my opinion there particular version of economic well being passes me by and I've yet to see the Armageddon predictions post Brexit actually play out in reality .

And post pandemic you don't need to guess what's coming for the Eurozone , the thing is there's nowt they can do either .

I'll tell you now they won't have it in the Eurozone even that idiot Veroffstadt was throwing his arms up the other day wanting the Commission otherwise known as The Syndicate to actually come up with some solutions .

They've gone too far with this shyte , trading deal no problem all the other cr@p well you got your answer four years ago in the UK .

As far as the mid 70's goes we will just have to agree to disagree Billy but British jobs for British workers carried some massive clout back then and they'd the power to make the argument .

We've have of course had most of this conversation before Tyke, Greece voted for the fiscal remedies proposed by the EU (or at least the coutries offerering loans) over reverting back to the Drachma and later the lenders relieved the terms of repayment.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So no answers to either of those questions Tyke? Just machine gun bluster.

[Not Now Kato]

Billy

I ain't ever going to say leaving the EU is the road to economic utopia , I'm a realist .

But I see all sorts of figures quoted for this that and the other for leaving the EU and to be honest I say to myself so what ?

The EU deliver austerity packages to those who don't fall in to line within the membership , who do these people think they are ?

Ask the working class of Greece , Ireland , Portugal , Italy and The Netherlands how that works out .

An austerity programme decided by people they've never voted for and what's more never even seen , it's one thing to have to accept austerity from your own government and quite another from an organisation outside of your borders .

So I'm afraid in my opinion there particular version of economic well being passes me by and I've yet to see the Armageddon predictions post Brexit actually play out in reality .

And post pandemic you don't need to guess what's coming for the Eurozone , the thing is there's nowt they can do either .

I'll tell you now they won't have it in the Eurozone even that idiot Veroffstadt was throwing his arms up the other day wanting the Commission otherwise known as The Syndicate to actually come up with some solutions .

They've gone too far with this shyte , trading deal no problem all the other cr@p well you got your answer four years ago in the UK .

As far as the mid 70's goes we will just have to agree to disagree Billy but British jobs for British workers carried some massive clout back then and they'd the power to make the argument .

tyke, this reads like something out of the Daily Mail mate. 
 
The EU don't deliver austerity packages, full stop.  And whilst I cant speak for Italy or Portugal I have friends in the ROI and The Netherlands and the message they give me is that there is overall support there for being in the EU.  The ROI has seen massive economic growth since joining the EU, they are a well off nation far from any form of austerity!  Oh, and Greece paid the penalty for many internal failures, though they did actually vote in favour of the measures the EU proposed - the alternative was a return to their previous problems and financial issues. 
 
It's rather clear you don't actually understand how either the EU works, but hey, the Daily Mail again eh?
 
As for your post Brexit 'Armageddon' - we haven't left yet, even if Daily Mail readers believe we have!
 
In the end, it's quite clear from what you write that you don't care if we're going to be worse off once we actually leave the EU, and that is a really worrying concept!