Congratualtions Keir Starmer

[Glyn_Wigley]

Lovely. Then your guess is as good as mine.

And Private Eye's is better than both of ours.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The blame game has begun, this from a Government minister

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-minister-says-wrong-advice-at-start-of-covid-19-outbreak-could-have-led-to-mistakes-11990896

Completely ignoring that it's the government's responsibility to get all the advise they can and then make the decisions.

And no-one is going to tell me that South Korea's pandemic experience and knowledge of how to manage one properly were kept state secrets and not available to our government.

[bpoolrover]

The blame game has begun, this from a Government minister

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-minister-says-wrong-advice-at-start-of-covid-19-outbreak-could-have-led-to-mistakes-11990896

is it correct or not thou?

[DonnyOsmond]

thou

[Glyn_Wigley]

The blame game has begun, this from a Government minister

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-minister-says-wrong-advice-at-start-of-covid-19-outbreak-could-have-led-to-mistakes-11990896

is it correct or not thou?

Is "it's the government's responsibility to get all the advice they can and then make the decisions." wrong?

[Filo]

The blame game has begun, this from a Government minister

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-minister-says-wrong-advice-at-start-of-covid-19-outbreak-could-have-led-to-mistakes-11990896

is it correct or not thou?

Well it’s from a Government Ministers mouth, so probably no

[BillyStubbsTears]

So you think the government and the PM has done well, since the election.?

The coronavirus outbreak would have been difficult for any government - but I would rather see a PM make strong decisions, even if proven later to be wrong, but on the basis of honesty.

on the economic plans the put in place yes I think they have done as well as could be expected, on keeping enough space in hospitals I think they have done pretty well, I think they should have locked down earlier but don’t no exactly what advice they were given, you will always find things they can improve on thou

Bpool.

They kept hospitals below capacity by outsourcing the problem to the care home sector. Where something like 25,000 excess deaths have occurred.

Doesn't that give you, as a pensioner, some concern?

[BillyStubbsTears]

The blame game has begun, this from a Government minister

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-minister-says-wrong-advice-at-start-of-covid-19-outbreak-could-have-led-to-mistakes-11990896

is it correct or not thou?

No. It's not correct. Full stop.

I knew from listening to the radio in early February that without a hard lockdown, we were looking at 250-500,000 deaths by early summer.

It is shocking re-writing of history for a Govt minister to suggest that they weren't advised that that scenario was coming.

She's doing it to con the gullible. It is you choice whether you choose to be gullible enough to be conned.

[ravenrover]

The wriggling has started

[bpoolrover]

The blame game has begun, this from a Government minister

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-minister-says-wrong-advice-at-start-of-covid-19-outbreak-could-have-led-to-mistakes-11990896

is it correct or not thou?

No. It's not correct. Full stop.

I knew from listening to the radio in early February that without a hard lockdown, we were looking at 250-500,000 deaths by early summer.

It is shocking re-writing of history for a Govt minister to suggest that they weren't advised that that scenario was coming.

She's doing it to con the gullible. It is you choice whether you choose to be gullible enough to be conned.

what we need to do is wait until the time is right to have a enquiry and find out exactly what they were advised and by who and then make our minds up rather than just guessing surly that would be the right thing to do

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool

So you are happy for the people who made the collosal mistakes in Feb that have led to 60,000 deaths continuing to take the decisions on how we come out of lockdown? With no oversight?

[drfchound]

Are you impressed with Ed Davey manipulating the leadership election date to favour himself?

Are you insinuating that by delaying until next year with the full backing of the federal board he's favouring himself?

"Remember the Liberal Democrats? The party has been leaderless ever since Jo Swinson lost her seat last December, less than five months after taking charge - but a bizarre power grab has been under way. A curious pair has assumed the role of "joint acting leader". as half of this duumvirate Sir Edward Davey MP, soundly defeated by Swinson in the last leadership contest, has now actually been in post for longer than she was. Davey shares power with Dr Mark Pack.

As president of the Lib Dems, Pack's role is to uphold the constitution and to chair the party's federal board, on which Davey also sits. Curiously, two weeks after Pack assumed office in January, the board came out for the longest possible timetable for a leadership election, pushing it back until June- even though the party's rulebook envisions a contest lasting 9-13 weeks.

Then the election was delayed again, due to the Covid-19 crisis - fair enough. But Lib Dem members were furious to learn that it had been pushed back over a year: it wouldn't even begin until May 2021, thus extending the Davey-Pack junta from six months to more than 18 months! There was widespread suspicion that Sir Edward was lining himself up to be a shoo-in for the vote, becoming the well-entrenched incumbent with Pack's support.

Things grew even more bizarre when a dissenting member of the federal board, Jo Hayes, complained about the farce. Opposing this, in a long submission on behalf of the board, was...Mark Pack. The result was a formal ruling from barrister Alan Masters (who chairs the party's federal appeals panel) which makes sober reading for Davey and Pack.

While recognising that Covid-19 justified a further delay, Masters concludes: "To suspend the elections to May 2021 cannot be justified. I see no reason why once restrictions cease and it becomes safe to do so, an election cannot be conducted as soon as practical thereafter." Alternately, the party could just quietly drop the 'Democrats' from its name..."

From the current issue of Private Eye.

“But Lib Dem members were furious”.
Well obviously not all of them because MikeF isn’t furious.

[bpoolrover]

Bpool

So you are happy for the people who made the collosal mistakes in Feb that have led to 60,000 deaths continuing to take the decisions on how we come out of lockdown? With no oversight?

no matter what you think bst the government are going to be making the decisions with advice of science and medical experts so if makes no difference who is happy with that really, when they have a inquiry and find out what went wrong and who made what choice and why then I will judge not off bits of information I choose to believe

[Glyn_Wigley]

Are you impressed with Ed Davey manipulating the leadership election date to favour himself?

Are you insinuating that by delaying until next year with the full backing of the federal board he's favouring himself?

"Remember the Liberal Democrats? The party has been leaderless ever since Jo Swinson lost her seat last December, less than five months after taking charge - but a bizarre power grab has been under way. A curious pair has assumed the role of "joint acting leader". as half of this duumvirate Sir Edward Davey MP, soundly defeated by Swinson in the last leadership contest, has now actually been in post for longer than she was. Davey shares power with Dr Mark Pack.

As president of the Lib Dems, Pack's role is to uphold the constitution and to chair the party's federal board, on which Davey also sits. Curiously, two weeks after Pack assumed office in January, the board came out for the longest possible timetable for a leadership election, pushing it back until June- even though the party's rulebook envisions a contest lasting 9-13 weeks.

Then the election was delayed again, due to the Covid-19 crisis - fair enough. But Lib Dem members were furious to learn that it had been pushed back over a year: it wouldn't even begin until May 2021, thus extending the Davey-Pack junta from six months to more than 18 months! There was widespread suspicion that Sir Edward was lining himself up to be a shoo-in for the vote, becoming the well-entrenched incumbent with Pack's support.

Things grew even more bizarre when a dissenting member of the federal board, Jo Hayes, complained about the farce. Opposing this, in a long submission on behalf of the board, was...Mark Pack. The result was a formal ruling from barrister Alan Masters (who chairs the party's federal appeals panel) which makes sober reading for Davey and Pack.

While recognising that Covid-19 justified a further delay, Masters concludes: "To suspend the elections to May 2021 cannot be justified. I see no reason why once restrictions cease and it becomes safe to do so, an election cannot be conducted as soon as practical thereafter." Alternately, the party could just quietly drop the 'Democrats' from its name..."

From the current issue of Private Eye.

“But Lib Dem members were furious”.
Well obviously not all of them because MikeF isn’t furious.

It doesn't say all of them.

[drfchound]

Are you impressed with Ed Davey manipulating the leadership election date to favour himself?

Are you insinuating that by delaying until next year with the full backing of the federal board he's favouring himself?

"Remember the Liberal Democrats? The party has been leaderless ever since Jo Swinson lost her seat last December, less than five months after taking charge - but a bizarre power grab has been under way. A curious pair has assumed the role of "joint acting leader". as half of this duumvirate Sir Edward Davey MP, soundly defeated by Swinson in the last leadership contest, has now actually been in post for longer than she was. Davey shares power with Dr Mark Pack.

As president of the Lib Dems, Pack's role is to uphold the constitution and to chair the party's federal board, on which Davey also sits. Curiously, two weeks after Pack assumed office in January, the board came out for the longest possible timetable for a leadership election, pushing it back until June- even though the party's rulebook envisions a contest lasting 9-13 weeks.

Then the election was delayed again, due to the Covid-19 crisis - fair enough. But Lib Dem members were furious to learn that it had been pushed back over a year: it wouldn't even begin until May 2021, thus extending the Davey-Pack junta from six months to more than 18 months! There was widespread suspicion that Sir Edward was lining himself up to be a shoo-in for the vote, becoming the well-entrenched incumbent with Pack's support.

Things grew even more bizarre when a dissenting member of the federal board, Jo Hayes, complained about the farce. Opposing this, in a long submission on behalf of the board, was...Mark Pack. The result was a formal ruling from barrister Alan Masters (who chairs the party's federal appeals panel) which makes sober reading for Davey and Pack.

While recognising that Covid-19 justified a further delay, Masters concludes: "To suspend the elections to May 2021 cannot be justified. I see no reason why once restrictions cease and it becomes safe to do so, an election cannot be conducted as soon as practical thereafter." Alternately, the party could just quietly drop the 'Democrats' from its name..."

From the current issue of Private Eye.

“But Lib Dem members were furious”.
Well obviously not all of them because MikeF isn’t furious.

It doesn't say all of them.

It doesn’t say some of them either.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Are you impressed with Ed Davey manipulating the leadership election date to favour himself?

Are you insinuating that by delaying until next year with the full backing of the federal board he's favouring himself?

"Remember the Liberal Democrats? The party has been leaderless ever since Jo Swinson lost her seat last December, less than five months after taking charge - but a bizarre power grab has been under way. A curious pair has assumed the role of "joint acting leader". as half of this duumvirate Sir Edward Davey MP, soundly defeated by Swinson in the last leadership contest, has now actually been in post for longer than she was. Davey shares power with Dr Mark Pack.

As president of the Lib Dems, Pack's role is to uphold the constitution and to chair the party's federal board, on which Davey also sits. Curiously, two weeks after Pack assumed office in January, the board came out for the longest possible timetable for a leadership election, pushing it back until June- even though the party's rulebook envisions a contest lasting 9-13 weeks.

Then the election was delayed again, due to the Covid-19 crisis - fair enough. But Lib Dem members were furious to learn that it had been pushed back over a year: it wouldn't even begin until May 2021, thus extending the Davey-Pack junta from six months to more than 18 months! There was widespread suspicion that Sir Edward was lining himself up to be a shoo-in for the vote, becoming the well-entrenched incumbent with Pack's support.

Things grew even more bizarre when a dissenting member of the federal board, Jo Hayes, complained about the farce. Opposing this, in a long submission on behalf of the board, was...Mark Pack. The result was a formal ruling from barrister Alan Masters (who chairs the party's federal appeals panel) which makes sober reading for Davey and Pack.

While recognising that Covid-19 justified a further delay, Masters concludes: "To suspend the elections to May 2021 cannot be justified. I see no reason why once restrictions cease and it becomes safe to do so, an election cannot be conducted as soon as practical thereafter." Alternately, the party could just quietly drop the 'Democrats' from its name..."

From the current issue of Private Eye.

“But Lib Dem members were furious”.
Well obviously not all of them because MikeF isn’t furious.

It doesn't say all of them.

It doesn’t say some of them either.

It didn't need to use the word 'some' when it used the words it did. 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bpool

So you are happy for the people who made the collosal mistakes in Feb that have led to 60,000 deaths continuing to take the decisions on how we come out of lockdown? With no oversight?

no matter what you think bst the government are going to be making the decisions with advice of science and medical experts so if makes no difference who is happy with that really, when they have a inquiry and find out what went wrong and who made what choice and why then I will judge not off bits of information I choose to believe

What will you do when that enquiry never happens? Just shrug your shoulders and say 'oh well'?

[bpoolrover]

It will depend on the outcome of course

[Glyn_Wigley]

It will depend on the outcome of course

#

If there's no enquiry, how can there be an outcome?

[bpoolrover]

What will you say if it clears the goverment? Say it’s all rubbish and all there fault anyway?

[bpoolrover]

Sorry I misread your reply, I’m sure there will be a enquiry afterwards if not it would be a disgrace and I would not vote for them again

[Glyn_Wigley]

What will you say if it clears the goverment? Say it’s all rubbish and all there fault anyway?

How can an enquiry that won't happen clear the government?

[drfchound]

Are you impressed with Ed Davey manipulating the leadership election date to favour himself?

Are you insinuating that by delaying until next year with the full backing of the federal board he's favouring himself?

"Remember the Liberal Democrats? The party has been leaderless ever since Jo Swinson lost her seat last December, less than five months after taking charge - but a bizarre power grab has been under way. A curious pair has assumed the role of "joint acting leader". as half of this duumvirate Sir Edward Davey MP, soundly defeated by Swinson in the last leadership contest, has now actually been in post for longer than she was. Davey shares power with Dr Mark Pack.

As president of the Lib Dems, Pack's role is to uphold the constitution and to chair the party's federal board, on which Davey also sits. Curiously, two weeks after Pack assumed office in January, the board came out for the longest possible timetable for a leadership election, pushing it back until June- even though the party's rulebook envisions a contest lasting 9-13 weeks.

Then the election was delayed again, due to the Covid-19 crisis - fair enough. But Lib Dem members were furious to learn that it had been pushed back over a year: it wouldn't even begin until May 2021, thus extending the Davey-Pack junta from six months to more than 18 months! There was widespread suspicion that Sir Edward was lining himself up to be a shoo-in for the vote, becoming the well-entrenched incumbent with Pack's support.

Things grew even more bizarre when a dissenting member of the federal board, Jo Hayes, complained about the farce. Opposing this, in a long submission on behalf of the board, was...Mark Pack. The result was a formal ruling from barrister Alan Masters (who chairs the party's federal appeals panel) which makes sober reading for Davey and Pack.

While recognising that Covid-19 justified a further delay, Masters concludes: "To suspend the elections to May 2021 cannot be justified. I see no reason why once restrictions cease and it becomes safe to do so, an election cannot be conducted as soon as practical thereafter." Alternately, the party could just quietly drop the 'Democrats' from its name..."

From the current issue of Private Eye.

“But Lib Dem members were furious”.
Well obviously not all of them because MikeF isn’t furious.

It doesn't say all of them.

It doesn’t say some of them either.

It didn't need to use the word 'some' when it used the words it did.

......and as I said, not all the LD members were furious were they.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Are you impressed with Ed Davey manipulating the leadership election date to favour himself?

Are you insinuating that by delaying until next year with the full backing of the federal board he's favouring himself?

"Remember the Liberal Democrats? The party has been leaderless ever since Jo Swinson lost her seat last December, less than five months after taking charge - but a bizarre power grab has been under way. A curious pair has assumed the role of "joint acting leader". as half of this duumvirate Sir Edward Davey MP, soundly defeated by Swinson in the last leadership contest, has now actually been in post for longer than she was. Davey shares power with Dr Mark Pack.

As president of the Lib Dems, Pack's role is to uphold the constitution and to chair the party's federal board, on which Davey also sits. Curiously, two weeks after Pack assumed office in January, the board came out for the longest possible timetable for a leadership election, pushing it back until June- even though the party's rulebook envisions a contest lasting 9-13 weeks.

Then the election was delayed again, due to the Covid-19 crisis - fair enough. But Lib Dem members were furious to learn that it had been pushed back over a year: it wouldn't even begin until May 2021, thus extending the Davey-Pack junta from six months to more than 18 months! There was widespread suspicion that Sir Edward was lining himself up to be a shoo-in for the vote, becoming the well-entrenched incumbent with Pack's support.

Things grew even more bizarre when a dissenting member of the federal board, Jo Hayes, complained about the farce. Opposing this, in a long submission on behalf of the board, was...Mark Pack. The result was a formal ruling from barrister Alan Masters (who chairs the party's federal appeals panel) which makes sober reading for Davey and Pack.

While recognising that Covid-19 justified a further delay, Masters concludes: "To suspend the elections to May 2021 cannot be justified. I see no reason why once restrictions cease and it becomes safe to do so, an election cannot be conducted as soon as practical thereafter." Alternately, the party could just quietly drop the 'Democrats' from its name..."

From the current issue of Private Eye.

“But Lib Dem members were furious”.
Well obviously not all of them because MikeF isn’t furious.

It doesn't say all of them.

It doesn’t say some of them either.

It didn't need to use the word 'some' when it used the words it did.

......and as I said, not all the LD members were furious were they.

As the article never said so, and I've never said so either...so what? What difference does your saying that make whatsoever?

[drfchound]

Are you impressed with Ed Davey manipulating the leadership election date to favour himself?

Are you insinuating that by delaying until next year with the full backing of the federal board he's favouring himself?

"Remember the Liberal Democrats? The party has been leaderless ever since Jo Swinson lost her seat last December, less than five months after taking charge - but a bizarre power grab has been under way. A curious pair has assumed the role of "joint acting leader". as half of this duumvirate Sir Edward Davey MP, soundly defeated by Swinson in the last leadership contest, has now actually been in post for longer than she was. Davey shares power with Dr Mark Pack.

As president of the Lib Dems, Pack's role is to uphold the constitution and to chair the party's federal board, on which Davey also sits. Curiously, two weeks after Pack assumed office in January, the board came out for the longest possible timetable for a leadership election, pushing it back until June- even though the party's rulebook envisions a contest lasting 9-13 weeks.

Then the election was delayed again, due to the Covid-19 crisis - fair enough. But Lib Dem members were furious to learn that it had been pushed back over a year: it wouldn't even begin until May 2021, thus extending the Davey-Pack junta from six months to more than 18 months! There was widespread suspicion that Sir Edward was lining himself up to be a shoo-in for the vote, becoming the well-entrenched incumbent with Pack's support.

Things grew even more bizarre when a dissenting member of the federal board, Jo Hayes, complained about the farce. Opposing this, in a long submission on behalf of the board, was...Mark Pack. The result was a formal ruling from barrister Alan Masters (who chairs the party's federal appeals panel) which makes sober reading for Davey and Pack.

While recognising that Covid-19 justified a further delay, Masters concludes: "To suspend the elections to May 2021 cannot be justified. I see no reason why once restrictions cease and it becomes safe to do so, an election cannot be conducted as soon as practical thereafter." Alternately, the party could just quietly drop the 'Democrats' from its name..."

From the current issue of Private Eye.

“But Lib Dem members were furious”.
Well obviously not all of them because MikeF isn’t furious.

It doesn't say all of them.

It doesn’t say some of them either.

It didn't need to use the word 'some' when it used the words it did.

......and as I said, not all the LD members were furious were they.

As the article never said so, and I've never said so either...so what? What difference does your saying that make whatsoever?

It makes some difference as not all LDs were furious.
Anyway, after your next comment on this you can be declared the winner if you like.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Are you impressed with Ed Davey manipulating the leadership election date to favour himself?

Are you insinuating that by delaying until next year with the full backing of the federal board he's favouring himself?

"Remember the Liberal Democrats? The party has been leaderless ever since Jo Swinson lost her seat last December, less than five months after taking charge - but a bizarre power grab has been under way. A curious pair has assumed the role of "joint acting leader". as half of this duumvirate Sir Edward Davey MP, soundly defeated by Swinson in the last leadership contest, has now actually been in post for longer than she was. Davey shares power with Dr Mark Pack.

As president of the Lib Dems, Pack's role is to uphold the constitution and to chair the party's federal board, on which Davey also sits. Curiously, two weeks after Pack assumed office in January, the board came out for the longest possible timetable for a leadership election, pushing it back until June- even though the party's rulebook envisions a contest lasting 9-13 weeks.

Then the election was delayed again, due to the Covid-19 crisis - fair enough. But Lib Dem members were furious to learn that it had been pushed back over a year: it wouldn't even begin until May 2021, thus extending the Davey-Pack junta from six months to more than 18 months! There was widespread suspicion that Sir Edward was lining himself up to be a shoo-in for the vote, becoming the well-entrenched incumbent with Pack's support.

Things grew even more bizarre when a dissenting member of the federal board, Jo Hayes, complained about the farce. Opposing this, in a long submission on behalf of the board, was...Mark Pack. The result was a formal ruling from barrister Alan Masters (who chairs the party's federal appeals panel) which makes sober reading for Davey and Pack.

While recognising that Covid-19 justified a further delay, Masters concludes: "To suspend the elections to May 2021 cannot be justified. I see no reason why once restrictions cease and it becomes safe to do so, an election cannot be conducted as soon as practical thereafter." Alternately, the party could just quietly drop the 'Democrats' from its name..."

From the current issue of Private Eye.

“But Lib Dem members were furious”.
Well obviously not all of them because MikeF isn’t furious.

It doesn't say all of them.

It doesn’t say some of them either.

It didn't need to use the word 'some' when it used the words it did.

......and as I said, not all the LD members were furious were they.

As the article never said so, and I've never said so either...so what? What difference does your saying that make whatsoever?

It makes some difference as not all LDs were furious.
Anyway, after your next comment on this you can be declared the winner if you like.

I genuinely don't know what you're getting at. When the articles says “But Lib Dem members were furious”, does that mean to you:

(a) "No Lib Dem members were furious”
(b) “Some, but not all Lib Dem members were furious”
(c) "All Lib Dem members were furious”

If you don't think it's (a) or (b), then you are in complete agreement with the article and there's no difference at all and I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool

So you are happy for the people who made the collosal mistakes in Feb that have led to 60,000 deaths continuing to take the decisions on how we come out of lockdown? With no oversight?

no matter what you think bst the government are going to be making the decisions with advice of science and medical experts so if makes no difference who is happy with that really, when they have a inquiry and find out what went wrong and who made what choice and why then I will judge not off bits of information I choose to believe

That's absolutely NOT how democratic societies operate. A Government isn't some sort of unassailable Emperor between elections.

We have both the right and a duty to hold them to account. But that doesn't happen if people just shrug their shoulders and ignore mistakes.

[wilts rover]

Bpool

So you are happy for the people who made the collosal mistakes in Feb that have led to 60,000 deaths continuing to take the decisions on how we come out of lockdown? With no oversight?

no matter what you think bst the government are going to be making the decisions with advice of science and medical experts so if makes no difference who is happy with that really, when they have a inquiry and find out what went wrong and who made what choice and why then I will judge not off bits of information I choose to believe

Here's a start for you bkpool.

We know from the released minutes that on 3rd March SAGE believed that covid-19 was in community transmission in the UK and if not halted 250000 to 500000 people could die.

We know that same day Boris Johnson went on tv and said it was OK to keep shaking hands - and he personally had just shaken hands with people that possibly had it.

We know that a full lockdown did not occur until 23rd March.

Those are all facts. Written down (or videoed) and recorded. Johnson and his government chose not to act for 3 weeks.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/29/revealed-the-inside-story-of-uk-covid-19-coronavirus-crisis

https://appeasement.org/

The most worrying bit for me is of course - they are still in place to get the next bit wrong too.

[wilts rover]

What will you say if it clears the goverment? Say it’s all rubbish and all there fault anyway?

Yes. Just like 3 Hillsborough Inquiries cleared the police and football authorities.

Or the Iraq Inquiry cleared Blair.

[bpoolrover]

Yes wilts thanks for that, what we need to know is what advice the goverment were given and how why they chose to go down the path they did, did the science people tell the government to lock down earlier or not?