Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on June 01, 2020, 11:03:40 am
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This is what happens to a young black couple just driving home.
Live in TV.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KCJ_Swish/status/1266913464234237954
And how many more times is this happening off camera?
I do not condone rioting. But I understand it when this is the context of how black Americans are treated.
I heard a young, professional middle class black American interviewed on the radio a couple of days ago. He said he never goes for a walk in his neighbourhood without either his little dog, or his little girl. Because they humanise him and make him seem harmless. Whereas on his own, he is a 6'2" athletically built black man and he knows how that profiles him to the police.
Shocking that that country seems to be degenerating on the race question.
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America is one f**ked up Country, a bow and arrow ffs!
https://youtu.be/yImHy8-pkns
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Remember the LA riots started by the non conviction of 4 police that beat him up badly but not convicted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King
Mapping US police killings of Black Americans
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2020/05/mapping-police-killings-black-americans-200531105741757.html
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And this. In front of TV cameras.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RetiredMaybe/status/1266940818545401856
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And it's looking like Trump's years of attacking the press are having a very disturbing effect.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2020/05/31/us-law-enforcement-are-deliberately-targeting-journalists-during-george-floyd-protests/
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Protesting is fine and having your say is fine what has happened not just on this occasion but on many more is disgusting, but if someone dies from rioting looting or setting fire to things then that person is no better than the officer or person that has been racist, while I understand it has happened now the social distancing at the London protest has also put peoples lives at risk
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The overriding memory of visiting the Southern United States for me, was that there is far more racial segregation over there than here. There are black areas, there are white areas, there isn't a lot of mixing.
The other noticeable difference was the attitude of the police, there was a real 'respect my authority' uptightness about them. It felt like they wanted to be seen to be laying down the law all the time. Not at all like the community policing in the UK.
the US claims to be a melting pot but really, for me it gets nowhere near London in that respect.
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Agreed RD.
I was in South Carolina about a dozen years ago and I noticed the same things that You did.
A couple of years after that I went to Atlanta and in the big city it was much worse.
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These people weren't rioting.
Yet.
I would be now if I'd been treated like that.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1267025377857241089
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Protesting is fine and having your say is fine what has happened not just on this occasion but on many more is disgusting, but if someone dies from rioting looting or setting fire to things then that person is no better than the officer or person that has been racist, while I understand it has happened now the social distancing at the London protest has also put peoples lives at risk
Indeed - two wrongs don’t make a right..
However often the violence/looting which turns a protest into a riot, isn’t started by the protest itself, more a minority element looking for trouble, or using the protest as a shield to get away with criminal activity.
But when the police react, and perhaps strongly, sometimes the regular protesters get caught up in it and then they react violently.
It’s a vicious circle, which is why things need to be nipped in the bud - like in this case the American policeman should have been arrested and charged same day, not several days later.
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The overriding memory of visiting the Southern United States for me, was that there is far more racial segregation over there than here. There are black areas, there are white areas, there isn't a lot of mixing.
The other noticeable difference was the attitude of the police, there was a real 'respect my authority' uptightness about them. It felt like they wanted to be seen to be laying down the law all the time. Not at all like the community policing in the UK.
the US claims to be a melting pot but really, for me it gets nowhere near London in that respect.
The US is policed by force, the UK is policed by consent. The closest we get to US style policing here is when you're in a group of football fans.
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Not always Mike. There was one uniformed PC on the road bridge at Charlton station when that game was abandoned - all he was doing was trying to direct people to the correct platform, and he was getting dogs abuse from some Rovers fans, average age between 15-17 by my reckoning..
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Trouble with little belle ends like that is they perpetuate the myth about football crowds being trouble makers. And that leads to the rough treatment we all get from time to time at the hands of over-zealous plod.
Of course many a time I've had friendly conversations with police officers in a football setting and that's how it should be.
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Yes I had a few friendly wotds with a mounted officer once after his horse decided to to step on my foot
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Ha ha Police horses, I once saw two officers being shouted at because their horse had shit in the street. I went up, pushed Muppet out of way and asked them if I could have some for my Roses . "Yes mate we collect it and take it back to the stables but if you give us your address we will let you have a few Bags" and They did for several months . And my Roses loved it.
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Yes I had a few friendly wotds with a mounted officer once after his horse decided to to step on my foot
my brother was with his mate watching city v United when he was 12 and got trampled on, the copper did the decent thing and stopped thou, then told him he shouldn’t have been in the f way lol
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Racism by the police doesn't just happen in the US either
UK protesters accuse police of targeting black people during lockdown
The Guardian revealed last week that BAME people in England were 54% more likely to be fined under coronavirus rules than white people.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/01/uk-police-accused-of-targeting-black-people-during-lockdown
Racism by the police doesn't just happen in the US or Britain either
Aboriginal drivers in WA more likely to get fines from police officers than traffic cameras
The police have promised to fix ant problems with the cameras! :)
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/feb/05/aboriginal-drivers-in-wa-more-likely-to-get-fines-from-police-officers-than-traffic-cameras
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Pallets of bricks being dropped off at strategic protest points.
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More deliberate targeting of journalists.
https://mobile.twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1267662905383596032
This is what happens in dysfunctional states where the police are off the leash.
Remember, the started because of police being out of control.
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How f**ked up is American politics?
https://mobile.twitter.com/mattgaetz/status/1267513356853919744
That is a Republican congressman, calling for extra-judicial killing of American citizens.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1267763301766836224
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White supremacists attempt to pose as Antifa in call for violence
https://twitter.com/donie/status/1267676236022788104
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and this , the Country the Brexiteers want us to align with and cut our ties with Europe
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Do people want us to cut our ties with Europe though.
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Nobody can condone what has happened in the States, but where was the aghast at the police brutality in Paris that went on for months, the Russians and Turks lobbing bombs about in Syria, the military and police in Burma, and recently Hong Kong, and the luvvies were not that bothered about it in the northern counties in the miners strike either.
Come on stop picking political correct subjects that suit your political beliefs and start a discussion about all police brutality if you want to be taken seriously and not just because of Trump.
The saying should go all lives matter.
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Your last line is one of the few non-football things you have posted that I actually agree with.
All lives do matter.
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People all over the world protest about various things selby but unless you want the forum to turn into a human rights site which cannot be done and give the respect that each subject deserves. if you want a few token comments on each subject that can be done but it won't mean much.
Activists tend to select a subject that they feel is important to campaign on but support other allied campaigns.
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We can comment on all of those instances Selby but the main reason for commenting on this one is that the protests and congregating are taking place in our country. This could directly affect us in prolonging lockdown or costing the lives of friends and family.
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Your last line is one of the few non-football things you have posted that I actually agree with.
All lives do matter.
In theory yes, but the phrase "All lives matter" in the context of racial oppression is an offensive one and for reasons that I have only recently fully understood, but that I do agree with.
The best analogy I have seen is this one: If you live on a street and a neighbour's house is on fire, you would want the fire brigade to help that house only and put the fire out. You wouldn't go up to them and say "my house is just as important as theirs!" and get them to turn the hose on your unaffected house, would you?
People's lives of all creeds and colours matter of course. But until everyone starts truly believing that Black lives matter, then all lives cannot matter equally.
Simply put, it is the black communities and black people that are being most affected by this institutional, cultural racism in the United States and it has been this way for many, many years. That sector of our society need the help, support and increased awareness more than anyone right now and that is why we see the movement that is occurring at the moment.
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Bang on RA. Bang on.
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It’s amazing how many people, (not just on here but in general) that have previous history of having pretty poor opinions on things, end up going down the “all lives matter” route. If you are using that mantra you are part of the problem.
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Whoa.!!
Easy tigers.!!
I used the words All Lives Matter in the sense of being fully inclusive - “all lives” includes “black lives”. It doesn’t mean I disagree in any way with the current highlighting of the unforgivable issues affecting black communities in the USA and worldwide.
When I say all lives matter, I mean it literally in the sense of any community which is mistreated or lives under threat etc.
It does not intend to diminish the current message about the black communities, in any way. In response to the house fire analogy posted before, of course, it is right and proper to focus on the areas in immediate need.
I am actually quite upset that some people on here would think I have any views that are in any way racist, or that I would be part of the problem.
You guys know what my posting tone is like..
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I'm ok with your bona fides IDM
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IDM
I've no problem with your opinions and I know exactly what you meant when you said all lives do matter.
Problem is, that phrase has been hijacked by the far Right to paint black protests in a negative light.
I'm absolutely sure that's not the context that you were using it in. But phrases do take on meanings beyond the actual words.
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Again. On camera.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1268756025798164481
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And more. Simply too much to keep up.
https://mobile.twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528
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IDM
I've no problem with your opinions and I know exactly what you meant when you said all lives do matter.
Problem is, that phrase has been hijacked by the far Right to paint black protests in a negative light.
I'm absolutely sure that's not the context that you were using it in. But phrases do take on meanings beyond the actual words.
I see, I was unaware of that context.
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Again. On camera.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1268756025798164481
Nah, according to a Buffalo Police statement he tripped and fell!
https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffRussoWKBW/status/1268712651292643334
FFS, what are these thugs on?
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Remember. The protests started because of out of control police violence.
The correctness of the protests has only been amplified by what has happened since.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ml0VAy6edBI
Speaks sense.
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He sounds right to me.
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He sounds a lot more sensible than some of the politicians and police spokespersons over there.
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A somewhat controversial question would be to ask how would his comments have been received if he was a White bloke?
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It's not controversial tho is it?(asked another stupid question)
See what I did there?
It's a f"*#ing ridiculous statement.
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Whoa.!!
Easy tigers.!!
I used the words All Lives Matter in the sense of being fully inclusive - “all lives” includes “black lives”. It doesn’t mean I disagree in any way with the current highlighting of the unforgivable issues affecting black communities in the USA and worldwide.
When I say all lives matter, I mean it literally in the sense of any community which is mistreated or lives under threat etc.
It does not intend to diminish the current message about the black communities, in any way. In response to the house fire analogy posted before, of course, it is right and proper to focus on the areas in immediate need.
I am actually quite upset that some people on here would think I have any views that are in any way racist, or that I would be part of the problem.
You guys know what my posting tone is like..
IDM. I'm sure Gaz directed that at a post you replied to. He wasnt referring to you. You quoted it.
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Just out of interest, who on here or elsewhere has been condoning rioting and looting?
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Idm on the all lives matter, a lot of people use it but some people think it’s not appropriate it’s certainly not racist and of course your right all lives do matter so I wouldn’t worry about it
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Whoa.!!
Easy tigers.!!
I used the words All Lives Matter in the sense of being fully inclusive - “all lives” includes “black lives”. It doesn’t mean I disagree in any way with the current highlighting of the unforgivable issues affecting black communities in the USA and worldwide.
When I say all lives matter, I mean it literally in the sense of any community which is mistreated or lives under threat etc.
It does not intend to diminish the current message about the black communities, in any way. In response to the house fire analogy posted before, of course, it is right and proper to focus on the areas in immediate need.
I am actually quite upset that some people on here would think I have any views that are in any way racist, or that I would be part of the problem.
You guys know what my posting tone is like..
IDM, I hope you don't think I believe you to be racist or was calling you such with my post last night because I certainly don't think you are. "All lives matter" is being used as a phrase to inflame/demean those standing up for the rights of Black citizens in the US and I felt that needed pointing out, with some context.
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Thank you, I appreciate that - this was something I was unaware of..
Language, eh.?
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Idm on the all lives matter, a lot of people use it but some people think it’s not appropriate it’s certainly not racist and of course your right all lives do matter so I wouldn’t worry about it
Bpool.
The phrase "All lives matter" is used extensively by white supremacists with the intention of showing that black people who say "Black lives matter" think that ONLY black lives matter, or that they matter more than white lives. And to therefore whip up aggression among whites.
THAT is the problem with it.
The phrase "Black lives matter" does not and never has implied that other lives matter less. It simply highlights the fact that, in many places, the case that "black lives matter" has to be made. Because in many places, blacks ARE treated with lower standards than whites. For the most part, we don't NEED to make the argument that "White lives matter" - we know they do because society is set up that way.
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Yes mate I already new that as have seen the arguing on social media over it
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All humans matter. Is that unoffensive BST?
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out trumped himself again, that cola must have rotted his small brain
'''Revolting': Trump condemned for saying George Floyd is praising US economy''
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/05/trump-george-floyd-comments-economy-unemployment
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DD
As with every single comment that anyone ever makes, it all depends on the context.
Value-neutral, that phrase is one that everyone can agree with.
If it is used (as the "All live matter" line is, constantly) to imply that black people are valuing themselves above white people then yes, it is racist.
I genuinely do not understand why this is even needing to be discussed. The line "Black lives matter" was coined not to imply that white ones don't. It was coined to ram the message into the faces of those who (by actions or inactions) have made clear that they do NOT believe black lives matter as much as white ones. There is an implicit "too" at the end of that phrase.
It's not a hard concept to grasp for anyone who really wants to think about it. The fact it has to be explained so often is very depressing.
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‘BST
‘Black lives matter’ is self-evidently a racist remark.
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‘BST
‘Black lives matter’ is self-evidently a racist remark.
Do you think Black Lives don't matter?
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DD, did you ignore BST's comment that it all depends on context?
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(https://i.imgur.com/HsSkLZS_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8394281/amp/Priti-Patel-calls-Black-Lives-Matter-protesters-stay-home-Covid-threat.html Thousands in Manchester 2
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Prime Minister of Canada takes a knee whilst attending protests in Ottawa
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/justin-trudeau-kneel-black-lives-matter-trnd/index.html
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As has always been the case there are groups who are little more than anarchists attaching themselves to genuine protests. I remember back in my mining days, every time there was a sniff of industrial unrest there were groups of “socialist workers” swarming about all over stirring things up.
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Black Lives Matter = Save The Rainforests.
Doesn't mean at the expense of all other forests.
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Black Lives Matter = Save The Rainforests.
Doesn't mean at the expense of all other forests.
Spot on.
That logic can apply to so many things, if only people thought about it and acted 'grown up'. :thumbsup:
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As has always been the case there are groups who are little more than anarchists attaching themselves to genuine protests. I remember back in my mining days, every time there was a sniff of industrial unrest there were groups of “socialist workers” swarming about all over stirring things up.
Absolutely and they are a significant and damaging part of society. There is 100% a point to these demonstrations, we are ahead of a number of countries on racial equality here, but still nowhere near good enough. The cause and effect aspect of that though is hugely complicated.
There is though perfect reason in agreeing and supporting the cause and protest but also being critical of 1. the lack of social distancing and 2. the violence, graffiti and damaged caused by a minority.
In my line of work I'd come across very few black people and certainly recruiting black candidates would be few/non existant in number, with one exception who worked in my team (originally Somalian and grew up and studied abroad originally). That is not as such a racist thing, it's not because I wouldn't employ a black candidate but because there aren't the candidates there to present the opportunity. That may well be the choice of black people but more than likely it's the lack of opportunity they have to get at that level, again a complex issue. As a society we should do more to give these youngsters the opportunity to be successful, just as we should any youngsters who start life in a less privileged position.
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If all people in the UK were equal with equal opportunity you would/should see about 12% of any workforce being BAME.
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If all people in the UK were equal with equal opportunity you would/should see about 12% of any workforce being BAME.
Not quite, the last census (very outdated now) had this sort of split for Doncaster;
The working age population for BME groups in Doncaster is 8.8% compared to the
National Average of 21.5%.
My point would not necessarily be about proportion of workforce but the work they actually do. You'll see much more BAME persons at the lower end of the employment spectrum and that should be something that can be changed. Granted it doesn't fit in all areas and there are some areas where you cannot make it equal eg physical attributes, but in the case of mental ability and strength it is thought there is no scientific link between intelligence and race, thus it must be a social and societal issue.
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We were only talking this morning how very few black people we could remember in Donny when we lived there 40years ago nor in Notts were we are now and several other places in between. Plenty of of Asian but very few black people. Has that situation changed in Donny?
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We were only talking this morning how very few black people we could remember in Donny when we lived there 40years ago nor in Notts were we are now and several other places in between. Plenty of of Asian but very few black people. Has that situation changed in Donny?
I well remember taking a visiting West Indian colleague into Barnburgh Working Man's Club for a beer back around then. The whole place just fell silent when we walked in!
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I suppose my situation is not the norm, but where I grew up, Bentley West End, there was in the 1960s and 70s a significant influx of West Indian families to the area.
Many of them worked at Bentley Pit, where a lot of them became my mates.
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I can't imagine Doncaster is any better or any worse then most towns of its size in the country.
However on the football side of things there is more to be proud of as regards racial integration than many other places in the country. We had Charlie Williams in the 1950's and one of the few black mangers in the country today.
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I wonder why the murders, brutality, and beatings aren't being sensored on social media but supposed mis-information of Covid-19 are because its deemed as dangerous?
Keep your eyes peeled people.
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The political motives of the group black lives matter UK are actually serious and require close attention.
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Australia for a relatively young country has it's own race problems too
NSW police pursue 80% of Indigenous people caught with cannabis through courts
Exclusive: data shows hugely disproportionate treatment, which experts say helps trap young Aboriginal people in the criminal justice system
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/10/nsw-police-pursue-80-of-indigenous-people-caught-with-cannabis-through-courts
Aboriginal drivers in WA more likely to get fines from police officers than traffic cameras
Exclusive: Indigenous people are fined more than average by police officers but less than average by traffic cameras
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/feb/05/aboriginal-drivers-in-wa-more-likely-to-get-fines-from-police-officers-than-traffic-cameras
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I learned about William Wilberforce at school but I wasn't taught about this
The black British history you may not know about
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-52939694
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All, I love reading this forum but I think I've only posted once or twice in 12 years. But this thread got me going. There's 3 things I wanted to say.
1. I remember my youngest son at about 8 (now 21) describing how he'd been invited to a school mate's birthday party. i asked him who it was and where he lived cos I'd never heard of him. Ok. He's got curly hair, green eyes, a bit taller and slimmer than me...Oh, I said, that new black kid who's just joined. He said dad I didn't think you could say that. But he was pretty genuinely clour-blind and didn't use the most defining characteristic to describe him.
2. Wind on 13 years at University and my elder son lived in Bristol with two white guys and three white girls, and one one black guy. They all got pissed and misbehaved apparently, but who was the only one who got stopped and lifted by the the police 18 times in one year? Yep. Met him and he's a lovely bloke.
3. The thing about statues. I'm undecided. I think you should maybe remove the overtly commercial-opportunity ones (and don't know why they would erect one in the first place eg Colston) but attacking Churchill or Rhodes in my mind is ridiculous. They were men of their time, and you can't impose retrospective values on their actions unless you agree to give up the benefits of those. And how do you calculate that?
William the Conqueror killed an estimated 1m in the Harrying of the North, Queen Mary burned 1000s of Protestants during her reign - should we shut down pubs bearing their name? Where do start? Or end?
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Welcome KR you've provided a shed load for further dabate.
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All, I love reading this forum but I think I've only posted once or twice in 12 years. But this thread got me going. There's 3 things I wanted to say.
1. I remember my youngest son at about 8 (now 21) describing how he'd been invited to a school mate's birthday party. i asked him who it was and where he lived cos I'd never heard of him. Ok. He's got curly hair, green eyes, a bit taller and slimmer than me...Oh, I said, that new black kid who's just joined. He said dad I didn't think you could say that. But he was pretty genuinely clour-blind and didn't use the most defining characteristic to describe him.
2. Wind on 13 years at University and my elder son lived in Bristol with two white guys and three white girls, and one one black guy. They all got pissed and misbehaved apparently, but who was the only one who got stopped and lifted by the the police 18 times in one year? Yep. Met him and he's a lovely bloke.
3. The thing about statues. I'm undecided. I think you should maybe remove the overtly commercial-opportunity ones (and don't know why they would erect one in the first place eg Colston) but attacking Churchill or Rhodes in my mind is ridiculous. They were men of their time, and you can't impose retrospective values on their actions unless you agree to give up the benefits of those. And how do you calculate that?
William the Conqueror killed an estimated 1m in the Harrying of the North, Queen Mary burned 1000s of Protestants during her reign - should we shut down pubs bearing their name? Where do start? Or end?
A good post KentRover.
Hindsight rears it head all the time.
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A few years ago one of my grandsons used to go to football training on a Saturday. They always finished with five a side and on the way home one day he was telling me how good one lad was.
When I asked which one he meant he said he was up front a lot of the time. Which one? He had a Barcelona kit on. Yes but which one? He was the right tall lad.
I then realised that he meant a lad who looked of Caribbean heritage.
Any one my age would have just said at the start " The black lad".
Not as a derogatory term but just as the easiest way to describe him, just we might have said, skinny,fat,small,tall,blonde,ginger or curly.
A lot of the time it is the way a word is used rather than the word itself.
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I couldn't agree more with that post Idler, especially your final sentence.
Circumstances and expectations change with time and I can't have with people who try to set standards of perfection on this theme. There was a black comedian a few years ago who had a right old go at the image that Charlie Williams had portrayed back in the 1960s and 70s. He said he was an Uncle Tom who had debased himself and other black people by playing up to stereotypes.
It might well look that way looking back half a century, but Williams lived in a very different society. What he did was to humanise black people in the eyes of whites. To get many white people thinking for the first time, "You know what, black people are this alien race, they laugh at things like I do." It was a step along the way. And times change.
If Williams came back today and told that story about how, on his first day at school, four lads came running up to him and he panicked that they were going to beat him up...but they just wanted to lick him because they thought he was made of chocolate, it would be excruciatingly embarrassing, because a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then. Williams made that joke in a context where very, very few white people ever did have any contact with black people. And that story gave a subtle message of "I am actually human, just like you" as well as making people laugh on a subject that usually raised temperatures and gently suggesting that white people examine their opinions. But today, it couldn't work. Because the idea that white people might naively not realise that blacks were sophisticated humans like them is ridiculous.
It is ALWAYS about context. And pretty much always about power structures. Who is the one who is in a position of power over someone else and behaving nastily - THEY are ripe for being taken on aggressively, but if you use the same approach to someone who is at a disadvantage, you are just piling on. It's why the GGM "going out for an English" sketch wasn't "racist" in a pejorative way. They weren't jibing at the English as a whole. They were poking fun at a specific sub-culture that needed pricking. Totally different to the Bernard Manning "So this Paki walked into the dole office..." type joke.
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He could laugh at himself as well could Charlie. One of his put-downs when faced with a persistent heckler in his standup days was 'If tha dunt shut up I'll come and live next to yer'.
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He feking had to laugh at himself to earn money. If he'd have taken offence or had a go back he'd be either sacked and broke or lynched and dead. Ffs
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Welcome KR you've provided a shed load for further dabate.
Thanks SR for the welcome, been following this stuff for a while
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He could laugh at himself as well could Charlie. One of his put-downs when faced with a persistent heckler in his standup days was 'If tha dunt shut up I'll come and live next to yer'.
My mum and dad went to see him at the Batley Variety Club (maybe late 70s?) and that was the only line she remembered. Said it was hilarious though
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He feking had to laugh at himself to earn money. If he'd have taken offence or had a go back he'd be either sacked and broke or lynched and dead. Ffs
Not sure what upset you about my post aukleyflyer.
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A few years ago one of my grandsons used to go to football training on a Saturday. They always finished with five a side and on the way home one day he was telling me how good one lad was.
When I asked which one he meant he said he was up front a lot of the time. Which one? He had a Barcelona kit on. Yes but which one? He was the right tall lad.
I then realised that he meant a lad who looked of Caribbean heritage.
Any one my age would have just said at the start " The black lad".
Not as a derogatory term but just as the easiest way to describe him, just we might have said, skinny,fat,small,tall,blonde,ginger or curly.
A lot of the time it is the way a word is used rather than the word itself.
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Posted without comment. You can decide for yourselves which side of history you want to be on.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielNewman/status/1283681572433141760
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Unbelievable!
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And again.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53636098
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But yeah, the REAL issue is obviously people choosing to kneel...
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But yeah, the REAL issue is obviously people choosing to kneel...
It reminds me of the British forces using photos of Corbyn in a firing range exercise.
I thought a key feature of the armed forces of a democracy was that they were supposed to be apolitical?