18,000 train services cancelled in a single month must be a record surely?

[SydneyRover]

Avanti West Coast and TransPennine, hats off to you it must take some doing that!

[danumdon]

Not really, no money, no drivers, no plan. a few others in exactly the same situation.

Covid totally ruined the train driver training plan, this is now having a massive knock on effect, nobody wants to work overtime weekends if the don't have to.

To be fair to them also a good proportion of the cancellations could have been caused by the RMT strike which resulted in signallers going out on strike so no trains could be run on those days so its not as black or white as it first seems.

"Possibly shades of grey involved"

[scawsby steve]

The Railways need taking back into public ownership. Everyone knows it.

Come on, Keith. Another vote winner if you pledge to do it.

[keith79]

No idea fella

[SydneyRover]

It's strange that a lack of drivers, strikes etc only happen to train systems in the north.

''TPE, which runs trains in the north of England and Scotland, has the highest cancellation rate of any British train operating company, at 19%-30% each week. It routinely cancels up to 60 services the night before, blaming high levels of staff sickness and a driver training programme. These so-called “P-code” cancellations, which must be made by 10pm the night before, disappear from the timetable and are not recorded by the Office of Rail and Road, which compiles railway performance data''

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/03/uk-figures-stark-north-south-divide-railway-reliability

[danumdon]

There is a bit more to this issue than just taking the Guardians spin on it, comparing the train services in the north to what runs in the south east especially is like chalk and cheese.

Im no apologist for TPE and i know they run a shocking service but to concentrate on them just deflects from other areas which have their own particular issues.

I have access to far more detailed breakdowns of train performance and reliability databases that i'm not at liberty to disclose but i can assure you there's a bit more to it than the usual wheeled out excuses.

I suppose when your trying to manufacture certain scenarios then any data can be constructed to exploit your narrative and your fav rag is one of the best at doing so.

[SydneyRover]

Put the breakdowns that you have up for scrutiny then?

If you are unable to divulge this information, give me an idea what it consists of and where it is likely to be found and I will press for FOI to get it out there.

[danumdon]

Its not going to happen and its more than my jobs worth as its private and confidential as it contains issues on TUPE and personnel T's & C's.

What i can say is when you compare TOC's and FOC's in the north who have historically had a older demographic of staff who's personal terms were created in some cases years ago and you compare it to some Southern based operators who tend to have a bigger staff turnover with many staff on new and restructured contracts, you may start to get an idea about why its much more difficult for northern operators to run an optimal service 7 days a week.

Also factor in that many operators in the south have drivers in links that consist of relatively short train diagrams, in effect the drivers have very small and precise route cards, that's all they need. in contrast many of the links in the north cover larger areas and drivers have to have more route knowledge, with diversionary routes also included to cover their train diagrams. basically they drive further than operators who just drive routes into and out of London and the south east which in train driving terms are short routes. The route knowledge takes time to learn and complete that's if you have driver managers and instructors available to teach them in the first place.

If you also factor how much gets spent on renewing infrastructure to run the trains in the first place as well as maintain it to required standards and how different the budgets are for various parts of the network nationwide the variations are very large.

These are just a few of issues that are all relevant to the figures that the Guardian published, and there are others as which are just as important but not for here.

When you take all the variables into consideration things are never very straightforward as a puff piece in a rag with a defined left wing view on how they want the railway to be portrayed at this particular time.

[SydneyRover]

The cancellations of service, if it is all accountable and verifiable why do the train companies hide behind loopholes, also all these problems you list are not secret information and any company taking on a contract such as this would have done an operations investigation to determine the long term viability of such a contract where they signed on the bottom line to do so.

Further to this you would not be R Crusoe in having this information at your fingertips so why has the company/s not taken steps in forward planning their work way through it, are they so incompetent?

[danumdon]

All TOC's and FOC's hide behind any loophole to gain a competitive advantage

Operations investigations for long term viability on the railways hinges on having the right amount of competent staff and more importantly keeping them, the market now is very open and any driver worth his salt has or will be weighing up his options, they are g falling over themselves to bag qualified drivers, pay rates are now higher than levels 6 and 7 qualified staff.

All companies steps to forward plan was dealt a hammer blow when Covid struck, you can't train drivers if they cannot sit next to you. Of course to get them to that position in the first place they have to pass a psychometric test, this test has been made easier to pass as the pass rate was to low, even now almost 50% of candidates fail this test, you have a further attempt to pass it after 6 months, if you fail it you will never be allowed to be considered again for a driving position. You also need the qualified managers and trainers to carry out this training, they are also head hunted into extinction. Covid was the killer that no company could of planned for, it was variable up and down the country at different times during its gestation, without this pandemic the vast majority of operators would of been well into their medium to long term plans to deal with the shortages, this is happening now.

Its not incompetence but a very challenging market place, drivers like anyone else can ply their trade to the highest bidder.

When these are some of the issues you have to contend with you may just be able to see that long term planning in the industry is not easy, unfortunately the train passengers cop the disruption.

[SydneyRover]

Thanks for your informed replies DD, what I don't understand is why all the above is only affecting  couple of northern train system operators.

[danumdon]

Thanks for your informed replies DD, what I don't understand is why all the above is only affecting  couple of northern train system operators.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/09/trains-cancelled-over-christmas-after-strikes

!

[SydneyRover]

Thanks for your informed replies DD, what I don't understand is why all the above is only affecting  couple of northern train system operators.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/09/trains-cancelled-over-christmas-after-strikes

!

Are they connected DD, or were we discussing what had already happened rather than what may happen?

[danumdon]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/14/north-england-rail-chaos-toxic-issues

I see the Guardian are hard at it again, obviously they see some mileage in flogging this till kingdom come.

I wonder for who's benefit because Starmer couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo never mind make any capital out of this.

As for TPE, good luck getting anyone to work rest day working, when you pay your drivers £64k flat they don't need the overtime.

[SydneyRover]

It would make more sense it you actually said what the guardian printed was incorrect and substantiate your claim DD.

Are there reasons why skilled workers with great responsibility should not earn a good wage, would you rather have city bankers with their hand on the speed controller?

From the link ...............

''On Tuesday, MPs on the transport committee heard from witnesses describing in vivid detail the chaos across the north of England – levels of chaos not repeated in other parts of the UK, and which comes on top of the industrial action being taken by rail unions''

Maybe you should have popped in and given them your two penn'orth DD

[danumdon]

Never said it was incorrect, in fact it is true. my point is that the Guardian are giving this story plenty of airtime, especially with it being in the north for a reason.
 
Now what might the Guardian want with flogging this story on a regular basis in the north, some might say there is political capital to be made there, who knows, maybe some closely contested seats to be won !

As for skilled workers with great responsibility, i totally agree, and they are worth every penny they earn as i know exactly what it takes to progress as a professional train driver.

And don't worry, TPE management know exactly how i feel when I've been on CRG meetings with them.

[SydneyRover]

Never said it was incorrect, in fact it is true. my point is that the Guardian are giving this story plenty of airtime, especially with it being in the north for a reason.
 
Now what might the Guardian want with flogging this story on a regular basis in the north, some might say there is political capital to be made there, who knows, maybe some closely contested seats to be won !

As for skilled workers with great responsibility, i totally agree, and they are worth every penny they earn as i know exactly what it takes to progress as a professional train driver.

And don't worry, TPE management know exactly how i feel when I've been on CRG meetings with them.

Excellent, I won't worry as we agree. The bit about the guardian 'flogging the story' it's what the media does, inform the public. I guess some media do concentrate on particular aspects and that is why in my view one should read a cross section to see if it makes sense with a different point of emphasis or additional information. Some on here (not you DD) have suggested that those interested in political/uk/world news may trawl for stories when in fact if you do read a wide cross section it's all there.

[danumdon]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/17/disabled-passengers-on-avanti-trains-say-they-have-had-to-sit-in-toilets-to-get-seat

The Guardian strike again, really trawling through toilets now to get a story to bad mouth services in the north(even though this was a service to London)

Talk about a dog with a bone, essentially not very subtle or effective i would say but that's your Guardian for you.

[SydneyRover]

I suppose you have to ask yourself if the report is about Avanti, you know the train service that is failing it's passengers and erm yes it is. It doesn't matter where the train finishes the story is about the service provider, aye DD

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/17/disabled-passengers-on-avanti-trains-say-they-have-had-to-sit-in-toilets-to-get-seat

The Guardian strike again, really trawling through toilets now to get a story to bad mouth services in the north(even though this was a service to London)

Talk about a dog with a bone, essentially not very subtle or effective i would say but that's your Guardian for you.

What an odd response.

[danumdon]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/17/disabled-passengers-on-avanti-trains-say-they-have-had-to-sit-in-toilets-to-get-seat

The Guardian strike again, really trawling through toilets now to get a story to bad mouth services in the north(even though this was a service to London)

Talk about a dog with a bone, essentially not very subtle or effective i would say but that's your Guardian for you.

What an odd response.

If you've read the thread and come to that conclusion then your quite diminished in my estimation.

Thought you had a bit more about you.

[danumdon]

I suppose you have to ask yourself if the report is about Avanti, you know the train service that is failing it's passengers and erm yes it is. It doesn't matter where the train finishes the story is about the service provider, aye DD

This story is about Avanti West Coast services, this one just happened to start from Wigan to London. last time i looked this company were headquartered in Euston London, so what this story has to do with the north is pushing it somewhat.

[SydneyRover]

With all due respect dd I think you're the one pushing it up hill, you first suggested the report was incorrect and you had secret information that you couldn't divulge, there can't be that much that is secret and unknown to running a train service aye, it's not MI5? then you turn 180 and agree with the report saying it is true and all the while disparaging a media outlet for bring it to the attention of the public that maybe don't use the service but pay for subsidising the service through their tax and all happening while an incompetent government appears to be frozen on the side lines.

[danumdon]

I'm just highlighting the guardians weak effort to try to make the crap railway service in the north seem like its some sort of gift from the crappy government and in effect push the narrative into weak minds that its their fault and you need to remember this when you next vote, especially in target seats.

Just for the folk who can't see the wood for the trees.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Surely the Guardian is reporting facts?

[roverstillidie91]

The Railways need taking back into public ownership. Everyone knows it.

Come on, Keith. Another vote winner if you pledge to do it.

All the public services do in all honesty

[danumdon]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/23/passengers-northern-railways-driver-transpennine-express-staff

This just gets more bizarre by the day. They have now stooped to making up a "secret train driver" to tell the story just in case people didn't believe them. The story is so lacking in factual copy its a complete joke. You can tell its a fabrication because a "real train driver" would of never commented about any part of the subject in the manner its been rehashed here.

Whoever commissioned this piece of garbage wants sacking, a job with the Independent is waiting for them.

If this is the Guardian "reporting facts" then i'm a Rotherham fan(and it don't get much worse for a Rovers fan than that.)

[SydneyRover]

Well Mr Miller maybe you should support what you say or even show that the journo that wrote the story has a history of misleading the public, something, anything at all.

[danumdon]

Im just pointing out to you the Guardians current campaign of trying to vilify the railways in the north to try to ram home to people like you who buy it hook line and sinker as part of their "try to reclaim the northern red wall seats" that abandoned labour at the last GE.

It's pointless posting any reposts here as you would always believe the Guff displayed in the piece regardless, but i'll indulge you.

Let me see now, a load of old trope from a secret source that cannot be verified but because its printed in your fav rag then it must be true.

Or take the word of someone who works in the industry, has no connections with TPE but knows managers and drivers who work for them and knows of factual mistakes in the piece,

TPE have not lost 74 drivers, they have more drivers now than they started the year with.

I know drivers based in York who drive that route from Leeds to Newcastle and Newcastle to Leeds, York to Manchester, and Liverpool to York so not the same as in the piece.

"Ask 90% of TPE staff if they would leave if they had a viable option to go to – and they would say yes." what does this mean, even if it is true. Divers at TPE could if they wanted to move tomorrow have the pick of at least 10 train operators , both passenger and freight operations if they wished to move. A qualified train driver is like rocking horse sh*t at this moment in time and any of those companies would snatch the hand off a driver if he wanted a change of scenery (they only stipulation they would have is to live within an hours travel of their depot) hence the 10 other operations who would have them.

She's either made up a fictional driver who cannot be verified or she she has been speaking to some disillusioned struggling driver who's not very good, in the bottom link and gets cra*ped on everyday and earns 60k whilst his mates in the top links get the plum jobs and are on 95kplus.

Take your pick.

[SydneyRover]

Not at all Miller, I would prefer to have facts even if I don't agree with them.