Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: graingrover on June 27, 2016, 06:26:10 pm
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Viewed from abroad it appears there is a lot of nasty divisions in our society following a divisive referendum and a degree of sadness / joy and pleasure/ anger . May I, in all modesty and with heartfelt sincerity suggest that Black Bank float a new massive flag . REMAINERS AND LEAVERS UNITE WITH ROVERS. We are a true Community Club and at a time when togetherness seems to be needed by all let our passion for Rovers show the way to everyone at Keepmoat and beyond.
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Sorry but that is so lame, we are football fans not into making political statements. Support the team, wave a flag, but please,in and out united?
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We'll be pushing Weldricks pharmacy e-petitions from the Clubs social media accounts next......
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Leavers and remainers? Ahhh I see, it's fans who leave before the final whistle and those who stay to the bitter end
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It's the vision thing Brian..... Shame. But there you go.
Cheers
BobG
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I've obviously lived away too long to understand I will keep my thoughts and ideas to misen in future.
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One of the cringiest things i've ever heard on this forum.
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A noble suggestion but Rovers fans can't agree on whether JR was second coming or anti-christ so doubt the EU debate is going to elicit unity.
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Cringey maybe, but a good sentiment behind it. I too have been away a long time, albeit only in Solihull and voted in, just as I voted Yes in 75.
And I really don't know how to feel about Doncaster any more. During the Miners strike and after I always spoke up for the working class and defended their cause particularly against those who accused the Miners of holding the country to ransom. Now I feel the country has been hijacked by populist right wing politicians exploiting the resentments felt, and gaining the backing of 69% of my former home. I genuinely do not feel comfortable with this, almost to the point of wanting to several all connections. Sorry but that's how I feel.
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Longbridge. The people have been shafted by politicians of all persuasions over the years. It isn't so long ago that the Northern Powerhouse was being talked about so enthusiastically, well until the election was over.
The Remain camp had everything in their favour and cocked it up. I wanted change in the EU that didn't look like it could happen at all. Suddenly in the fall out of us leaving it is to become more democratic.
Had Cameron come back with decent honest promises that looked as though they could be kept or fought a better campaign we would still be a member. Instead project fear was over-hyped and then he got Obama to stick his oar in. A half-decent campaign and they would have won despite Cameron and Osborne. Only London in England voted by a majority to stay in, that's how disillusioned ordinary people were. The sad thing is now some racists/extremists think that they have the backing of most of the country. We do have to now make the best of what we can but any politicians with the peoples' confidence are few and far between.
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I think the average Rovers fan will be looking to get back into the routine of supporting the club as an escape from recent politics rather than as a continuation of it. The BB emerged as a response to the slow death of 'atmosphere' in British football. That's its primary purpose and we should be cautious about using it as a political vehicle beyond the world of football politics.
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...Only London in England voted by a majority to stay in, that's how disillusioned ordinary people were.....
I agree with most of what you say, but Bristol and several other places voted remain too... some may think that's pedantic maybe, but I think it's important to not get too caught in the media simplification.
I know this thread is close to off topic, it's not really apt to get into the whole thing here. Just to say that whilst the referendum has certainly brought out division, and the view from abroad possibly highlights this, it's a temporary thing IMHO. As time goes on, and uniting things like being in a crowd supporting your footy team resumes, the stress will fade. No need to make an issue of it :scarf: :bbscarf: :bscarf:
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Idler. You speak well and I agree with you. This has ended up being a combination of Tory Party leadership contest and a vote for/against the establishment. Normally I am instinctively anti establishment, being a liberal leftie, and I guess I am surprised that what we have had is a right wing revolution, no less.
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...but I remain a Rovers fan, to bring it back on topic!!!
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We will all soon forget about EU divisions should Fergie get us off to a lacklustre start and the meatheads instead of persecuting Poles and Lithuanians will be persecuting a Scotsman.
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If it was not for Scotland it would not have even been close
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And that is what's so damn scary about it Keith too.
BobG
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Farage, yesterday was excruciatingly bad mannered to say the least. Was he playing to what he perceives as the Brexiters expect.
The SNP member by contrast made even more political capital was well received.
I've really short hair as otherwise I'd be bald. I have a few tattoos on my arms from my rebellious youth. When I'm abroad it's always assumed that I am English before I open my mouth. I don't need a clown like Farage stereotyping me even more, especially at 67 years old.
I think that had behaved like this before he would have lost votes and rightly so. I know his behaviour has been suspect many time before but yesterday seemed unforgivable, gloating and assuming that all Brexiters agree with all of his principles.
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And now we have a bunch of straight out of university careerist idiots attacking the only true socialist leader the labour party has had in my time who actually recognises the deprivation the working class communities have suffered since the miners strike! God help us if he gets ousted welome UKIP !!!!
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Agghh the Socialist dream....Maybe if someone actually explained to people how you pay for such an ideal in the business world while still remaining competive without running up national debt then even some in your own party might start to believe in it....
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I would hazard a guess at nationalising service industries and running them as profit-making businesses with the profits invested back into "the system".
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But who pays for the impact on the small to medium private businesses Mike...because you cant have rules for one set of workers and not others...Manufacturing has been crushed in this country,we cant compete with European companies as it is due to having to pay for our already inflated welfare system....
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but that aside just out of interest which country in this world would you say has thrived the most on the Socialist ideal?? That's a genuine question by the way..it's a interesting subject..
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WC, I'm not really a socialist by definition. I take more of a meritocratic approach with a view of "get on with it, chase the rewards but within a regulated system to ensure fair play". I was just playing a touch of devil's advocate above to suggest a way of making things work in a broadly socialist system.
The trouble with nationalised industry has always seemed (to me) to be that it breeds a sense of entitlement that leads to a lazy workforce and slackening of standards. National industries run as proper companies on private sector terms COULD work.
In reply to your aside: I really don't know, but then again I don't know if any have really applied the private sector business approach to nationalised industry!
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I take your point Mike...a few of my friends are socialists and we debate it regulary although none have been in business so find it difficult to understand the concerns I have to it...I voted out of the EU..Not because of the immigration issue but because I'm tired of losing work to Europe...My business is 50% labour and 50% materials..When the uk's average wage is 3 times greater than Polands it kills you..It's not easy having to wheel men into your office one after another saying they are now out of work because you've lost contracts for a price you cant break even on..While having restriction on your competiveness with dealing with the rest of the world on levy's....
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I have been a student of Mandarin for a number of years now and got to know the country and it's political system, and it's society quite well. It is THE Socialist system that has worked the best economically but has failed to dare to free the people and give them their right to express any political view that does not further the interests of the Party . Better an ailing Parliamentary Democracy .
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WC, the biggest (by far) and most contentious/bulletproof part of the welfare system is pensions.
The reply to suggesting reform in that area is always the same and rightly so. People who have worked all their lives to pay into the system shouldn't be penalised when they want their share of support in their Autumn years.
Of course, the state pension was set up at a time when the life expectancy after retirement age was much lower and the proportion of pensioners in the population was much lower so much as I hate it as a working man, the retirement/pension age has gone up and should probably go up a bit more!
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Graing
Better for us, maybe (although I wonder sometimes...)
As far as China's concerned, I think history will conclude that they called it right 27 years ago.
When the Soviet bloc was collapsing, there were calls for China to do what Russia did. Liberalise economically AND socially at the same time. That was what the Tiananmen protesters and others wanted.
The results in Russia were catastrophic of course. Collapse of the economy. Collapse of the political system. Massive poverty. A gangster state raped by a kleptocracy.
China took a different route. They liberalised e inimical my but kept strong political shackles on.
It's not ideal. It looks harsh from our Western liberal perspective. But look what they have done since 1990.
It's been the greatest economic development in human history. Half a billion people have moved from peasant farming to reasonable urban living standards. HALF A BILLION! That's like the urbanisation and industrialisation of the entire population and economy of Europe. In one generation.
They will have to liberalise politically at some point. But they know their Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Give people food, security, a decent home and a future first.
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We went on a two week tour of China in May. It was unbelievable how much building was going on. The populations of Chongquin and Beijing add up to about 63 million, that's about one million less than the UK.
We were told Beijing some years ago had two clear days one year. They are now restricting how many cars can go into the city and have planted millions of trees. Last year they had about 200 clear days according to the guide. I'm not sure how they are on health and safety though.
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Anyone heard of Cuba. No lazy nationalised workers a health service to be proud of,oh and a little country north of it trying to sabotage every effort as it scares the he'll out of them!
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My group of friends in Shanghai and occasional connection with the interpreters faculty at Shanghai normal uni is the spectrum through which I view and analyse China's extraordinary social explosion . The efforts the gov has made to protect the Internet wall and block all western social media such as Facebook , YouTube, Twitter and Instagram is SLOWLY being dismantled brick by brick by the use of Vpns i. In my view the breakthrough will take a few more years and meanwhile maybe harsh repression and detention of Vpns users will ensue but the inevitable breakthrough will be as significant as the fall of the Berlin WAll. I agree BST the new freedoms will not bring only good changes to their society . Extremist views are the first that will be propagated through social media .
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I was in Tianjin a couple of years ago.
Three things blew me away.
1) Train from Beijing to Tianjin. It's roughly as far as from Doncaster to Liverpool. Maybe a few miles shorter. The train took 26 minutes. And cost £7 for 1st class.
2) A couple of miles from my hotel window in Tianjin, they were building a skyscraper almost twice the height of The Shard. One of three of that height that were under construction in the city at the time. But that wasn't the impressive thing. In a 1km radius around that tower, I counted FIFTY-SEVEN smaller tower blocks under construction, each of which was taller than anything ever built in the UK outside London.
3) When we got off the train at Tianjin and were walking through the concourse, my colleague pointed out the number of poorly dressed people walking alongside us with huge poly bags on their shoulders. Maybe 20, maybe 30 of them. And when we looked at some of the transparent poly bags, they had boots and cooking pots and sleeping bags stuffed in them. And we realised that these were the economic migrants - the peasant farmers coming to the city for their future. I knew about the size of the mass migration to the cities, but seeing it like that with my own eyes. Two dozen of them. On one train. On one day. In one city. And this has been going on day after day in 100 cities for a quarter of a century.
We are a tiny speck of a place by comparison. Our importance and our effort and our problems are minuscule compared to what is going on over there. I hope to God that they get it right, for all our sakes.