Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: River Don on November 19, 2020, 12:41:21 am
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How will an all electric car compare with a petrol vehicle in terms of ownership,,assuming the government switches from taxing fuel directly to taxing miles travelled as is being suggested and assuming subsidies will be scrapped as electric cars become more popular?
I guess the ICE car will be cheaper to run? But then I expect the government will start applying sin taxes, such as charging in low emission zones to these vehicles anyway.
I have a feeling motoring is going to become more expensive generally.
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We'll pay something like a quid every 100 miles we do.
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I think Governments of all colours will need to "recoup" all their spending done in the Virus era - and just as we only recently paid off our World War 2 spending they will get it back "however and from wherever" it comes from
There is no way our Govts (of whatever colour) can lose a massive chunk of taxation like that going forwards so expect to pay b-i-g
Subsidies have been there for a while but they were withdrawn - and will probably be again once its a fait accompli. Lower or no Road tax - I was getting £0 taxation at one point due to my cars lack of emissions are already mostly phased out and are gradually creeping up
Charging up is much cheaper on the face of it but who can envisage a time when its still as cheap as it is now ? So the motorist will face higher and higher bills via taxation and of course the generators of the power that is supplied will see it as a chance to raise prices and so gradually I expect the cost of motoring will as River Don says in hs last sentence "is going to become more expensive generally."
One good point is those that eveade Road Tax now (ahem we know who they are mostly) will at last be included via paying taxation for charging - unless "they" are hooked up to the nearest Lamp post of course
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It will never work. We get power cuts every week in West Butterwick now. The national grid will take decades to get up to the task.
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Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.
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Unfortunately greenhouse emmissions can't be scrubbed selby
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Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.
Diesel already has a DPF fitted to do that, the trouble is when it eventually blocks because people do short runs all the time and not giving it time to do a regen, it causes a whole host of problems
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Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.
Diesel already has a DPF fitted to do that, the trouble is when it eventually blocks because people do short runs all the time and not giving it time to do a regen, it causes a whole host of problems
Guilty. A short run down the motorway is enough to get everything up to temperature to burn any gunk off though. Never had a real problem with it.
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Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.
Diesel already has a DPF fitted to do that, the trouble is when it eventually blocks because people do short runs all the time and not giving it time to do a regen, it causes a whole host of problems
Guilty. A short run down the motorway is enough to get everything up to temperature to burn any gunk off though. Never had a real problem with it.
Now I’m back with a Diesel, I shall be using only Shell Vpower, nearest one to me is Glews Garage at Goole, like you say a short blast down the motorway helps keep the engine in good condition. I like the premium fuels and believe in them, the X3 I just got rid of was petrol and only had Tesco Momentum 99 octane
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I would recommend anyone to watch evm on YouTube he is a Yorkshire man so knows about saving money and is very fair and debunks a lot of the myths of ev ownership
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Wolfie, people in our age group will only have to worry about if mobility scooters will still be tax free by the time they sort things out.
The first motor company to abandon EV's and move to a workable Hydrogen platform will corner the market, and I would not be surprised if some sort of scrubber that can be fitted to diesel cars and remove the pollutants is not on the market before very long.
Diesel already has a DPF fitted to do that, the trouble is when it eventually blocks because people do short runs all the time and not giving it time to do a regen, it causes a whole host of problems
Guilty. A short run down the motorway is enough to get everything up to temperature to burn any gunk off though. Never had a real problem with it.
Now I’m back with a Diesel, I shall be using only Shell Vpower, nearest one to me is Glews Garage at Goole, like you say a short blast down the motorway helps keep the engine in good condition. I like the premium fuels and believe in them, the X3 I just got rid of was petrol and only had Tesco Momentum 99 octane
The premium fuel is definitely worth the extra. It has cleaning additives to keep your engine in top shape. I also only use Shell V Power. Also the E number is 5. Apparently normal petrol is set to move to E10. This is a level of 10% ethanol in the fuel, however the premiums will stay at 5 which is another good reason to use it.
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Bloomberg New Energy Finance 2020 looks at the prospect for the change to electric for the finance community.
It includes the following about the international progress;
"Electric vehicles (EVs) reach upfront price parity with Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles before 2025, spurring faster adoption thereafter".
What that means is that the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) is obsolete from that point.
Anyone owning a ICE vehicle going forward will pay additional taxation over and above that for electric.
Road pricing per mile is likely, tapered to impacts on the environment. Running costs are 10x higher per mile for ICE compared to electric.
With battery costs reducing at 18% per year, the pace of change is getting faster.
ICE is simply not competitive on economic grounds beyond the point at which upfront costs converge.
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ICE drivers already pay a lot more tax in fuel duty. When they start taxing by mileage, I'd have thought that would bring electric drivers more in line.
As you say though, the government will probably keep taxation unattractive for ICE vehicles.
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Bloomberg New Energy Finance 2020 looks at the prospect for the change to electric for the finance community.
It includes the following about the international progress;
"Electric vehicles (EVs) reach upfront price parity with Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles before 2025, spurring faster adoption thereafter".
What that means is that the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) is obsolete from that point.
Anyone owning a ICE vehicle going forward will pay additional taxation over and above that for electric.
Road pricing per mile is likely, tapered to impacts on the environment. Running costs are 10x higher per mile for ICE compared to electric.
With battery costs reducing at 18% per year, the pace of change is getting faster.
ICE is simply not competitive on economic grounds beyond the point at which upfront costs converge.
I would pay more for the convenience and practicality of a petrol engine, but I don't see why I should.
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AL,
It is because driving a petrol/diesel vehicle imposes costs on others, via pollution impacts.
You will still be able to choose, but increasingly one option will cost more than the other, to reflect the policy objective.
As battery cost is the principal element in upfront cost, as these reduce it will become a no brainer.
When you talk about convenience and practicality, keep in mind an ICE has about 2000 parts, an EV much less (20 or so, model dependent). What does that mean for maintenance costs?
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Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere
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AL,
It is because driving a petrol/diesel vehicle imposes costs on others, via pollution impacts.
You will still be able to choose, but increasingly one option will cost more than the other, to reflect the policy objective.
As battery cost is the principal element in upfront cost, as these reduce it will become a no brainer.
When you talk about convenience and practicality, keep in mind an ICE has about 2000 parts, an EV much less (20 or so, model dependent). What does that mean for maintenance costs?
That's another thing. I work in a parts department and the only thing that we sell which we make any money on at all is service parts. The discounts we get from the manufacturer on anything other than filters and brake discs is pathetic. People imagine dealers make loads of money on parts but it is just not true. The profit margin on say a twenty pound part is quite often less than a couple of quid and then people ask for discount. All the money is made by the greedy manufacturers.
But while we are on about batteries why are the greens not up in arms about the child labour mining the raw materials in the Congo.
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AL,
New battery chemistry looks to avoid the cobalt and rare minerals on cost grounds.
I agree that the service industries are going to face massive disruption, this is what happens when an old technology is replaced by a much more efficient alternative.
No good taking the King Canute attitude....it is going to happen, and soon, because of economics.
The governments know it, so need to revise their tax base.
The car makers know it, so are scrambling to get their electric range in the shop window.
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Electric car
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Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere
and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers
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The range of EVs is a major issue for me.
I travel in excess of 40k miles a year (over half of that being work mileage) with regular single one way journeys of around 250 miles and round trips of 300 miles at times.
Attending the Keepmoat is around 200 mile round trip and most away games are far more than that.
What concerns me is being able to find an EV charging point at a convenient location on the route and it not in use already, along with the time spent waiting for it to charge.
No doubt charging points on motorway services will offer a recharge at a much higher cost than
Elsewhere as they do with fuel, but with fuel you can plan to avoid them by filling up before long motorway journeys.
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Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere
and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers
Yes, I’m not sure theres an EV on the market that can tow a Caravan
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Axhomle I also work in a parts department currently mercedes and Audi before that.
Service parts will go down of course and less mechanics will be needed however more electrical training will be needed.
Cars will still crash people will still try and steal them or vandalise them so parts will still get sold.
Batteries are lasting longer than daily mail readers will have you believe and some manufacturers are doing battery swap stations in China this is very popular due to people not having driveway or live in apartments away from parking. A battery swap takes around 5 mins and you book a slot which is no longer than it takes to refuel and normal car
Most people will just charge overnight and have a full car every morning.
I recommend people watch evm on YouTube about the range of miles people claim they need
Stockton you seem to be a special case of needing 300 miles regularly and only top end Tesla can manage this at the minute same for towing caravans and heavy trailers
I know the Kia eniro does around 270miles to a full charge so you would need a full charge at home then a short charge or at the place you are working at as more and more places will be getting them.
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There isn’t so how are they going to address that problem I wonder. There is going to be hundreds of thousands of people losing there jobs. Oh and I forgot there will be all the caravan sites closing to
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The range of EVs is a major issue for me.
I travel in excess of 40k miles a year (over half of that being work mileage) with regular single one way journeys of around 250 miles and round trips of 300 miles at times.
Attending the Keepmoat is around 200 mile round trip and most away games are far more than that.
What concerns me is being able to find an EV charging point at a convenient location on the route and it not in use already, along with the time spent waiting for it to charge.
No doubt charging points on motorway services will offer a recharge at a much higher cost than
Elsewhere as they do with fuel, but with fuel you can plan to avoid them by filling up before long motorway journeys.
Stockton.
As we transition to majority EV use, the provision of charging points will expand.
Go back 120 years. Imagine telling a ICE sceptic that within a few years there would be petrol stations every few miles.
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Vicar people will still be able to buy a petrol or diesel car if manufacturers still sell them up until 2030 that's another 10 years.
Batteries will continue to improve and if people demand it manufacturers will build it otherwise others will and they will lose sales there are EVs out there that can tow a caravan, Tesla's are one
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Stockton also maybe worth checking out gridserve they are building out motorway service style fast charging network so maybe something for you to look at when you are ready for your next car
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Also - I think - it is only full on new petrol/diesel vehicles which will be banned then. Hybrids should still be OK..
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There will need to be re-charge point at every space at Service Stations. Can you imagine travelling to Cornwall on holiday in an EV having to re-charge a couple of times en route you could spend more time waiting for a charging point to become available than actually on holiday
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Over 20,000 charging points and rising every week;
https://www.zap-map.com/
Range per charge is also rising with new models.
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To further my point above, surely there will be a period of transition with the hybrid vehicles.?
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I thought they said hybrids would not be sold beyond 2035?
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Also - I think - it is only full on new petrol/diesel vehicles which will be banned then. Hybrids should still be OK..
Until 2035
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Yes, the ban on new hybrids will start in 2035.
There is no need for a hybrid once EV range extends sufficient to ease anxiety.
Hybrid is a transition technology, which requires 2 separate systems on board, increasing costs to manufacturers.
I doubt anyone will still be making/selling hybrids by 2035.
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I can fill my car and get 700miles range in about five minutes. How does charging time and range of EV compare?
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Pies,
It depends on whether you are using a rapid charger, and how much juice is in the battery.
I think people need to re-think the idea of "filling up".
You don't need a full tank for the vast majority of trips....you need sufficient.
People are going to top up at supermarkets, leisure centres and the like. Plug-in while you are doing summat else!
Its not like you are going to run it down to empty before topping up.
It would be like driving down the motorway until you stopped, then getting out the jerry can and walking to the nearest filling station.
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I’m sure I read somewhere a couple of years ago that technology is around to build induction charging into road surfaces
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I can fill my car and get 700miles range in about five minutes. How does charging time and range of EV compare?
At the moment just over 400 miles on a charge is top "scorer" and its a Tesla
It would take 8 hours ish to "charge up" at home
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Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere
and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers
Im the last bloke I would ask about Cars but surely if Formula E Cars that weigh 800 kgs can top 174 mph and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds yjere must be a way to govern that power down to make a Car pull a huge weight ? I know there are the restraints on Car weights and Caravans but surely they can solve that ?
Also Mobile Homes will just become part of the evolution of the EV as well. I followed a load of E-Vans (not Welsh ones) destined for Amazon and I thought not long till the Lorry carrying the 8 of them will be electric too
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Thanks guys. Albie, that's a valid point about topping up between charges that's the change in mentality around the subject that will make it work. Nevertheless, ultimate range and charging from near empty remain obstacles at this point in time.
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Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere
and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers
Im the last bloke I would ask about Cars but surely if Formula E Cars that weigh 800 kgs can top 174 mph and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds yjere must be a way to govern that power down to make a Car pull a huge weight ? I know there are the restraints on Car weights and Caravans but surely they can solve that ?
Also Mobile Homes will just become part of the evolution of the EV as well. I followed a load of E-Vans (not Welsh ones) destined for Amazon and I thought not long till the Lorry carrying the 8 of them will be electric too
A car with a high end top speed (horse power) is not a good indicator of its pulling power, which is Torque, Torque is is the amount of leverage an engine can generate eg the force of a piston on the crankshaft, horsepower is Torgue X RPM and is a measurement of how quickly an engine can accomplish its task. You don’t see tractors going fast, but you see them pulling heavy loads
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it's like comparing a thoroughbred racehorse with a Shire horse. Or Mo Farah competing against Geoff Capes in a 20-meter race, pulling a lorry.
Horses for courses.
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Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere
and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers
Im the last bloke I would ask about Cars but surely if Formula E Cars that weigh 800 kgs can top 174 mph and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds yjere must be a way to govern that power down to make a Car pull a huge weight ? I know there are the restraints on Car weights and Caravans but surely they can solve that ?
Also Mobile Homes will just become part of the evolution of the EV as well. I followed a load of E-Vans (not Welsh ones) destined for Amazon and I thought not long till the Lorry carrying the 8 of them will be electric too
no they can’t, as it goes on curb side weight and if you made it the same comparison to the weight of an electric car then a caravan would be the same weight as a biscuit box and if they were any lighter they would get blown about on a motorway. If a electric car could pul a caravan the battery would probably last 50 miles service stations would be chocker block and take hours to get your car charged with everyone waiting for a slot
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Because technology never improves over time, does it.
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Because technology never improves over time, does it.
Of course it doesn't I love my brick size phone with the suitcase size battery
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I think I will wait and see.
The car you have now is the greenest car because manufacturing a new car, electric or conventional is where the bulk of emissions are released. I only do quite a low mileage in an economic car. I will have a relatively low carbon footprint.
If electric cars really do become a no brainer in the next five years, I'll consider changing but the way things are, it's difficult to believe there will be such a rapid advance. I think the challenge of installing charging infrastructure will continue to hold the electric revolution back.
Keeping the current car longer makes the most sense to me.
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Yes they do change but with the curb side weight of a elec car and the weight of a caravan the torque of the sed car
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I seem to remember a few years back that everyone would have solar panels on their roof by now.
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I still think there are low tech alternatives that could make a more drastic improvement to carbon emissions.
They could just roll out a subsidised comprehensive buildings insulation scheme. If we could just wrap houses up better and stop burning so much natural gas then that would see a big fall in emissions. Might the money they intend to spend on charging infrastructure and rolls Royce mini nuclear powerstations be better spent on lots of lagging and triple glazing?
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Hound.
The Cameron Government slashed the subsidies for roof PV panels before the industry was well enough established to stand on its own. Because...Austerity innit.
It's an industry that relies on a mass market to drive down prices. They've continued to fall in other countries.
USA.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/e5C1Iq3DUS_tTPPh9TM9gIfpifPeazV_T8r4YIffwV5WZbkbQN_ZF0D6rqOUZmv4_z7A6_V-EFHzShtNb3DJF3oCrEgXaTeTsoV_BOp36JBvKDI9_xcJ2_Lklu-tUEbhgpQI-WO4rOgc_R9rWccb9K76ZSQGz1NoTsEo
Japan.
https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/statistics/re/img/graph_sun02.png
But here, there's been no reduction in cost since the subsidies were slashed.
https://www.solarguide.co.uk/data/imagecache/content_images/wpimages-solarguide.co.uk/2018/08/27125009/Cost-of-a-4kW-Solar-PV-System-UK-1.png
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I still think there are low tech alternatives that could make a more drastic improvement to carbon emissions.
They could just roll out a subsidised comprehensive buildings insulation scheme. If we could just wrap houses up better and stop burning so much natural gas then that would see a big fall in emissions. Might the money they intend to spend on charging infrastructure and rolls Royce mini nuclear powerstations be better spent on lots of lagging and triple glazing?
Funnily enough, I heard a news article earlier today which told about future homes being so well insulated that they wouldn’t even need a heating boiler.
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I still think there are low tech alternatives that could make a more drastic improvement to carbon emissions.
They could just roll out a subsidised comprehensive buildings insulation scheme. If we could just wrap houses up better and stop burning so much natural gas then that would see a big fall in emissions. Might the money they intend to spend on charging infrastructure and rolls Royce mini nuclear powerstations be better spent on lots of lagging and triple glazing?
Funnily enough, I heard a news article earlier today which told about future homes being so well insulated that they wouldn’t even need a heating boiler.
Passiv Haus standards pretty much do that already. But in the UK house builders still aren't required to make sure new buildings are really properly insulated.
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Hound.
The Cameron Government slashed the subsidies for roof PV panels before the industry was well enough established to stand on its own. Because...Austerity innit.
It's an industry that relies on a mass market to drive down prices. They've continued to fall in other countries.
USA.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/e5C1Iq3DUS_tTPPh9TM9gIfpifPeazV_T8r4YIffwV5WZbkbQN_ZF0D6rqOUZmv4_z7A6_V-EFHzShtNb3DJF3oCrEgXaTeTsoV_BOp36JBvKDI9_xcJ2_Lklu-tUEbhgpQI-WO4rOgc_R9rWccb9K76ZSQGz1NoTsEo
Japan.
https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/statistics/re/img/graph_sun02.png
But here, there's been no reduction in cost since the subsidies were slashed.
https://www.solarguide.co.uk/data/imagecache/content_images/wpimages-solarguide.co.uk/2018/08/27125009/Cost-of-a-4kW-Solar-PV-System-UK-1.png
Precisely BST.
So who is certain that subsidies will continue for the EV projects.
As has been said often enough by myself and others on here, there are many obstacles in the way of getting us all into electric vehicles by 2030.
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Hound,
Difference is;
1 Government policy is in favour. All other parties agree.
2 The industry has made a decision. re-tooling factories to produce EV rather than ICE.
3 Financial players have moved. R+D is into batteries, not legacy tech.
4 The economics is so heavily in favour long term, that to miss out now might mean missing for good.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/gm-batteries-cut-electric-car-costs-increase-range-74299299
The interesting point no-one has mentioned is the assumption about the cost of electricity in future years.
Demand will increase, but so will low cost provision from offshore wind.
The battery revolution resulting from the R+D investment can also support storage capacity at low marginal cost.
The move to EV should be seen alongside the disruption of the energy sector...they speak to each other.
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TBF - I posted this re electricity prices in #2
Charging up is much cheaper on the face of it but who can envisage a time when its still as cheap as it is now ? So the motorist will face higher and higher bills via taxation and of course the generators of the power that is supplied will see it as a chance to raise prices and so gradually I expect the cost of motoring will as River Don says in hs last sentence "is going to become more expensive generally."
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Hound,
Difference is;
1 Government policy is in favour. All other parties agree.
2 The industry has made a decision. re-tooling factories to produce EV rather than ICE.
3 Financial players have moved. R+D is into batteries, not legacy tech.
4 The economics is so heavily in favour long term, that to miss out now might mean missing for good.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/gm-batteries-cut-electric-car-costs-increase-range-74299299
The interesting point no-one has mentioned is the assumption about the cost of electricity in future years.
Demand will increase, but so will low cost provision from offshore wind.
The battery revolution resulting from the R+D investment can also support storage capacity at low marginal cost.
The move to EV should be seen alongside the disruption of the energy sector...they speak to each other.
Just to be clear albie, I am not against switching to electronic cars.
I understand all the points that you made are valid ones but like previous initiatives, there are lots of things that might conspire to bring failure of meeting the 2030:target date.
If we are all still here in ten years time we can review this discussion.
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Petrol stations out of business, mechanics out of business, motor car parts out of business, it will have a huge impact on the UK workforce while Country’s like China continue to churn out shit into the atmosphere
and caravan and mobile home manufacturers and sellers
Im the last bloke I would ask about Cars but surely if Formula E Cars that weigh 800 kgs can top 174 mph and 0 to 60 in under 3 seconds yjere must be a way to govern that power down to make a Car pull a huge weight ? I know there are the restraints on Car weights and Caravans but surely they can solve that ?
Also Mobile Homes will just become part of the evolution of the EV as well. I followed a load of E-Vans (not Welsh ones) destined for Amazon and I thought not long till the Lorry carrying the 8 of them will be electric too
A car with a high end top speed (horse power) is not a good indicator of its pulling power, which is Torque, Torque is is the amount of leverage an engine can generate eg the force of a piston on the crankshaft, horsepower is Torgue X RPM and is a measurement of how quickly an engine can accomplish its task. You don’t see tractors going fast, but you see them pulling heavy loads
Yep agree 100% - I wasnt saying that an Formula E car could pull a Caravan just that surely if the brains exist to get an 800 kilo car as high as 174 mph - those same brains could channel that power into whatever it needs to produce torque
As i said in a different Post I followed a Car Transporter with 8 Amazon all Electic vans yesterday and in the fullness of time the Lorry itself will surely go all electric meaning (neccesity is the mother of invention) it will be easy to get Cars to pull Caravans
Wonder what the pulling power of the Vans is as of right now for example - they are big and going to be big and full soon
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https://electriccarsreport.com/2020/11/bmw-investing-e400m-in-a-new-vehicle-assembly-in-munich/
Link about BMW refitting their Munich plant to make all electric cars
Chinese company BYD make a all electric lorry that does around 150 miles fully loaded which doesn't sound alot but would work as a last mile delivery vehicle.
Tesla's semi truck (as americans call them) will be out in the USA within the next few years with an expected range of 300 to 400 miles or 6 hours of driving which is about right for that use
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We were very near to big power cuts because of demand just a couple of weeks ago when wind power output was poor.
As I have posted I think that if any major motor company gets it right and goes with Hydrogen they have a right good chance of cleaning up, as has the aluminium air battery if the will and investment is there.
But I can never understand why solar Panels are not a planning requirement on all new buildings especially the big industrial buildings when they will install solar farms on perfectly good agricultural land covering acres and requiring civil work to connect to the grid that is an automatic requirement to new buildings.
The only advantage of solar farms at the moment is to the land owner who gets a bigger return than farming the land.
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It's why I'm still sceptical about solar panels Selby.
If they were really an effective economic power source, surely the likes of Amazon and Ikea would be covering the roofs of their megawarehouses with them and selling electric to the grid.
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EV can't come soon enough, it'll stop me putting petrol in my diesel :blush:
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National Grid seem very confident about the future demand for Leccy;
https://twitter.com/ng_eso/status/1328997906670608386
With the UK well placed for installing new offshore wind farms, the blades turning at night have a ready market in parked vehicles re-charging.
Fleets, electric buses,delivery vehicles and folk with home charging access are going to mop up the off peak production, and start the day fully charged at low cost price of electricity.
Street parkers might have a lamp-post option, but will adopt a different strategy of top up by use of supermarkets and work places etc.
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National Grid seem very confident about the future demand for Leccy;
https://twitter.com/ng_eso/status/1328997906670608386
With the UK well placed for installing new offshore wind farms, the blades turning at night have a ready market in parked vehicles re-charging.
Fleets, electric buses,delivery vehicles and folk with home charging access are going to mop up the off peak production, and start the day fully charged at low cost price of electricity.
Street parkers might have a lamp-post option, but will adopt a different strategy of top up by use of supermarkets and work places etc.
Why would someone's workplace pay to put in a charging point and even if they did who get's to use it? I can see a punch up in the car park...
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At this moment in time to pay a premium on an overpriced EV with basically unproven battery lifetime, and discounts being offered especially if you have the cash on some very good diesel and petrol models its a no brainer, what you save on the initial outlay will pay for a lot of fuel especially if you keep the car for a decent number of years when hopefully EV technology is better and their is a chance of a government scrappage scheme.
Modern cars are more than capable of lasting until 2030, in lots of works car parks the most common registrations range from 04 upwards so have had careers of over 10 years on the road.
Of course if you like badge engineering you could always drive a Renault in a German cars clothing and pay a hefty premium.
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At this moment in time to pay a premium on an overpriced EV with basically unproven battery lifetime, and discounts being offered especially if you have the cash on some very good diesel and petrol models its a no brainer, what you save on the initial outlay will pay for a lot of fuel especially if you keep the car for a decent number of years when hopefully EV technology is better and their is a chance of a government scrappage scheme.
Modern cars are more than capable of lasting until 2030, in lots of works car parks the most common registrations range from 04 upwards so have had careers of over 10 years on the road.
Of course if you like badge engineering you could always drive a Renault in a German cars clothing and pay a hefty premium.
I intend keeping my current motor up until the deadline for petrol cars to be taken off the market. By that time i'll be 63 so a new motor should see me out, God willing. Or I may get run over by a bus tomorrow, which apparently is more likely than a fatal case of Covid.
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AL,
To answer your point why should workplaces install chargers;
1) Fleet operators will need them for company vehicles
2) Once a Carbon Tax comes forward (it will, soon), businesses will manage their liabilities accordingly
3) They will be effectively zero cost, because the installation will be offset against tax
4) It will become the new normal very quickly, and anyone slow to act will be at a disadvantage
The question is not why would you, but why you would not?
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I have a Tesla Model 3 as my company car.
I'm with Octopus Energy on their Go tariff and charge my car between 00.30 - 04.30am for 4p kWh. It costs me the grand total of £6 to travel 300 miles.
It's great to be part of the future and isn't the least bit inconvenient when charging etc.
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Those are astonishing numbers Jamie.
I'm pretty pleased with the savings I'm making switching from a BMW520 to a Prius. I reckon I'll save well over £1000 per year on fuel and tax. But with your numbers that would be another £1000 per year saving on top of that. I can't have an EV at the moment as we have on street parking, but when that infrastructure is finally sorted, I'll be straight in for one.
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BST,
Vehicle to Grid is the project referred to;
https://octopus.energy/blog/vehicle-to-grid/
It was covered by BBC Click at the weekend.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000pr0y/click-the-electric-vehicle-revolution
Last few minutes of the show.
Not on YT yet, but will be soon.
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BST there is a company called connected kerb that is hoping to install on street charging in lamppost and bollards.
The other up side of an ev is no expensive timing belt and water pump changes which at a dealer can be around 600 pound or even oil changes at a basic change at a garage of around 120
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Like I say, I'm ready to jump as soon as the charging is available.
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I'm hoping cars the size of your Mondeos and the like become affordable sooner rather than later, I'll have finished paying for my current car in a couple of years and I'd like to get a decent sized EV afterwards.
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Like I say, I'm ready to jump as soon as the charging is available.
Nice to here I personally don’t have one either but as soon as I can afford one that is the right size looking at the VW I.D4 or Skoda eynaq iv
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BST there is a company called connected kerb that is hoping to install on street charging in lamppost and bollards.
The other up side of an ev is no expensive timing belt and water pump changes which at a dealer can be around 600 pound or even oil changes at a basic change at a garage of around 120
Did they do the lighting for the Phoenix club?
Yes, that's really good news that service receptionists, parts people and mechanics will all be out of work, wonderful.
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Not at all axhomle I'm a parts supervisor so will effect me aswell.
Mechanics will just retrain cars will still crash and people will still cars fixing just not as often or regular service anyway
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Not at all axhomle I'm a parts supervisor so will effect me aswell.
Mechanics will just retrain cars will still crash and people will still cars fixing just not as often or regular service anyway
But all the profit lies in service parts and cam belt kits. Cars may still crash but if your dealer is a certain German owned franchise there is no trade business as the TPS centres have taken all of that. The only cream you would be left with is pollen filters, discs and pads. Then you have warranty work which you would only make less than 5% profit on.
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Used to be Audi now at merc, dealers will get smaller or less staff and not replace them when they start to leave.
I recommend people who want to work in the motor trade learn as much as possible around electric cars and charging infrastructure also green energy, solar and battery storage as that will be the next big business
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When have the government scheduled the regional power cuts in the North to retain that level of control over everyones freedom?
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When have the government schedule the regional power cuts in the North to retain that level of control over everyone's freedom?
Pardon the pun....... but I guess it will depend on who is in power.
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When have the government scheduled the regional power cuts in the North to retain that level of control over everyone's freedom?
Get yourself to West Butterwick, we have them every week! :(
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Used to be Audi now at merc, dealers will get smaller or less staff and not replace them when they start to leave.
I recommend people who want to work in the motor trade learn as much as possible around electric cars and charging infrastructure also green energy, solar and battery storage as that will be the next big business
We can't get much smaller here, there's only me and the young lad. :)
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Used to be Audi now at merc, dealers will get smaller or less staff and not replace them when they start to leave.
I recommend people who want to work in the motor trade learn as much as possible around electric cars and charging infrastructure also green energy, solar and battery storage as that will be the next big business
We can't get much smaller here, there's only me and the young lad. :)
As long as your dealer and manufacturer is embracing EVs you should be fine. My Audi site had three charges installed before I left, at merc we have three plus more in the workshop, Porsche across the road are having 2 high powered chargers installed. So we look like we are moving forward.
As people will be spending less on service and on fuel they maybe willing to buy accessories (again very little profit) and may drive more so needing the few wear and tear item that are needed more often.
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Used to be Audi now at merc, dealers will get smaller or less staff and not replace them when they start to leave.
I recommend people who want to work in the motor trade learn as much as possible around electric cars and charging infrastructure also green energy, solar and battery storage as that will be the next big business
We can't get much smaller here, there's only me and the young lad. :)
As long as your dealer and manufacturer is embracing EVs you should be fine. My Audi site had three charges installed before I left, at merc we have three plus more in the workshop, Porsche across the road are having 2 high powered chargers installed. So we look like we are moving forward.
As people will be spending less on service and on fuel they maybe willing to buy accessories (again very little profit) and may drive more so needing the few wear and tear item that are needed more often.
We have the charging points installed, right by the outside tap for the pitch cleaner! :lol:
The special tooling and equipment required for the workshop for EV is a small fortune. When people get a repair done they often cough at the price but I don't think they understand how much money a dealership has to invest in mandatory training and tooling. If I was a businessman I wouldn't want a car dealership, it's an awful lot of money to invest for small returns.
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Has anyone leased an ev or hybrid, and how close in cost to petrol.?
I’m thinking of leasing instead of buying next time..
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I lease through work so finances may be different but the hybrid works out about 70 quid per month less than the petrol equivalent due to bik tax
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This is something we are all going to have to deal with eventually - but prices to buy for anything decent need to come down.
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Tesla extending the range for their models;
https://insideevs.com/news/456579/tesla-improve-range-700-km-435-miles/
All the others will need to up their game as a result.
It will be interesting to see who pitches for the mass market at a lower price point.
A good place for EV info is the Fully Charged Show on YT;
https://www.youtube.com/user/fullychargedshow?disable_polymer=true
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This is something we are all going to have to deal with eventually - but prices to buy for anything decent need to come down.
That's what's putting me off to be honest. They all look shite and you can buy a decent used Jag for less than what a good brand new EV costs.
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This is something we are all going to have to deal with eventually - but prices to buy for anything decent need to come down.
That's what's putting me off to be honest. They all look shite and you can buy a decent used Jag for less than what a good brand new EV costs.
Also as it's new technology you could end up shelling out big money now and in three years time find yourself stuck with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax VCR.
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This is something we are all going to have to deal with eventually - but prices to buy for anything decent need to come down.
That's what's putting me off to be honest. They all look shite and you can buy a decent used Jag for less than what a good brand new EV costs.
Also as it's new technology you could end up shelling out big money now and in three years time find yourself stuck with the motoring equivalent of a Betamax VCR.
Yep, there is that. I almost ended up doing a trade plate driving job a year ago when I was between jobs for BMW and the amount of different things I had to know about the different types of EVs I could potentially be driving was mad because several had ever so slightly different tech.
I think the future will perhaps be in these all inclusive car subscriptions that are starting to become a thing where you can change them every month in some instances.
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Janso you are so close to what will happen.
When working for Audi I went over to Munich for a new car launch and we were shown presentations on future systems one was product on demand so you could get a subscription for say 6 months for say heated seats and steering wheel.
Other things will be car to x in where your car talks to other cars or street lights and traffic lights, so as you get closer to the lights they have changed so you don’t need to slow down.
Other things like knowing where free car parking spaces are so as a car passes a spot it reports it to cars behind so if one of them is looking for a space it can direct the nav to that spot
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Janso you are so close to what will happen.
When working for Audi I went over to Munich for a new car launch and we were shown presentations on future systems one was product on demand so you could get a subscription for say 6 months for say heated seats and steering wheel.
Other things will be car to x in where your car talks to other cars or street lights and traffic lights, so as you get closer to the lights they have changed so you don’t need to slow down.
Other things like knowing where free car parking spaces are so as a car passes a spot it reports it to cars behind so if one of them is looking for a space it can direct the nav to that spot
Apparently if you buy the new Honda E you have to give your card details to pay for updates etc. It's all going a bit Star Trek. I used to have a Morris Minor which didn't even have a radio. When we used to go out for a run in the winter we took a flask of hot water and a hot water bottle for the Mrs to keep snug on the way back because the heater was so poor!
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I remember in the 1960s when all of the motoring magazines used to advertise the extras to improve your car. Rear window demisters, wing mirrors, reversing lamps, spot and fog lamps, radios, Rev counters, ammeters, oil pressure and water gauges. If you were really tarting it up there were multiple musical air horns. Top that lot off with a rally jacket and leather driving gloves. Them were the days.
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I remember in the 1960s when all of the motoring magazines used to advertise the extras to improve your car. Rear window demisters, wing mirrors, reversing lamps, spot and fog lamps, radios, Rev counters, ammeters, oil pressure and water gauges. If you were really tarting it up there were multiple musical air horns. Top that lot off with a rally jacket and leather driving gloves. Them were the days.
I remember those sort of polythene/plastic rectangular things to put in the rear window to allegedly stop it misting up. They didn't. The first accessory I got on my Chrysler Sunbeam was a passenger side door mirror and some go faster stripes. I know the cars were a bit rubbish really but it feels like motoring was far more enjoyable then.
Did your air horns play Dixie or Colonel Bogie?
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I remember in the 1960s when all of the motoring magazines used to advertise the extras to improve your car. Rear window demisters, wing mirrors, reversing lamps, spot and fog lamps, radios, Rev counters, ammeters, oil pressure and water gauges. If you were really tarting it up there were multiple musical air horns. Top that lot off with a rally jacket and leather driving gloves. Them were the days.
I remember those sort of polythene/plastic rectangular things to put in the rear window to allegedly stop it misting up. They didn't. The first accessory I got on my Chrysler Sunbeam was a passenger side door mirror and some go faster stripes. I know the cars were a bit rubbish really but it feels like motoring was far more enjoyable then.
Did your air horns play Dixie or Colonel Bogie?
I didn’t get the musical ones, there was La Cucaracha as well. I got twin air horns for my TR4. I also used to get the Gnomist demisters which were supposedly used on cockpit windows. They were just a film that you pressed on. They were better than the thicker ones.
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I remember in the 1960s when all of the motoring magazines used to advertise the extras to improve your car. Rear window demisters, wing mirrors, reversing lamps, spot and fog lamps, radios, Rev counters, ammeters, oil pressure and water gauges. If you were really tarting it up there were multiple musical air horns. Top that lot off with a rally jacket and leather driving gloves. Them were the days.
I remember those sort of polythene/plastic rectangular things to put in the rear window to allegedly stop it misting up. They didn't. The first accessory I got on my Chrysler Sunbeam was a passenger side door mirror and some go faster stripes. I know the cars were a bit rubbish really but it feels like motoring was far more enjoyable then.
Did your air horns play Dixie or Colonel Bogie?
I didn’t get the musical ones, there was La Cucaracha as well. I got twin air horns for my TR4. I also used to get the Gnomist demisters which were supposedly used on cockpit windows. They were just a film that you pressed on. They were better than the thicker ones.
Also there was the horrible black louvered rear window covers, you used to see a lot on mark 1 Capris.
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Him and Her screen sunstrip and fluffy dice hanging from the rear view mirror. Best was the 8-track stereo.
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https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/04/prepare-to-cringe-these-are-the-ten-most-sexist-car-adverts-of-all-time-7911751/
Have a laugh at these car ads from the seventies for a bit of sexism. By the way I have a Subaru, ha ha.
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This article highlights the dilemma people face in making the change to all electric early. It also reveals the scale of the challenge in making the UK road network fully electric by 2030.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network
Anyway, I've had my breakfast so I'm fully charged to go out on my bike for an hour now.
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Anyone interested in a 1964 Aston Martin DB5 going cheap?
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I work in the Energy sector (in fact, I'm just about to start a new job next week as Head of Public Sector at a major consultancy) and V2G is going to be huge.
The grid needs 30TW of storage for balancing and resilience by 2050 and there is currently 2TW built and available. There are some significant trials taking place in Glasgow with Nissan and NationalGrid funding, and the findings from that will no doubt shape both uptake and policy. Acceleration of the programme will no doubt follow.
Ironically, I've just had to hand back my Mercedes C350e hybrid company car and have just bought a diesel C220d. The C350e did 40k miles in the 2 years I had it (only about 2k since March this year) but the stats showed almost half of them were with the ICE not running. Nevertheless, it only averaged 42 miles to the gallon (2 litre petrol) and I charged it religiously overnight. The diesel is beating that in the first 2 weeks of ownership. Hybrids are not the future and will be phased out too.
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A good diesel hasn't been a bad option for an economic car. The only problem is the release of pollution particles, even then a modern engine that meets EU regs isn't bad so long as you keep the ad blue topped up. I've been running a VW Golf trubo diesel, it's efficiency is rated so highly I don't need to pay tax with it. And I don't often drive in town with it anyway and I don't do a big mileage.
Going all electric now, still feels like being an early adopter. I'd rather keep running the diesel for the time being.
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A good diesel hasn't been a bad option for an economic car. The only problem is the release of pollution particles, even then a modern engine that meets EU regs isn't bad so long as you keep the ad blue topped up. I've been running a VW Golf trubo diesel, it's efficiency is rated so highly I don't need to pay tax with it. And I don't often drive in town with it anyway and I don't do a big mileage.
Going all electric now, still feels like being an early adopter. I'd rather keep running the diesel for the time being.
Some modern diesels don't need adblue. Isuzu for example.
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Rob,
V2G has great potential as a reversible energy store.
As well as the domestic market set out in the BBC Click programme, commercial operators are looking at the opportunities the tech provides;
https://insideevs.com/news/439188/london-bus-depot-world-largest-v2g-site/
The Click programme is now on YT;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOdMczkkjTU
Last 10 minutes for the V2G domestic application.
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Anyone interested in a 1964 Aston Martin DB5 going cheap?
The real James Bond car from Goldfinger. Now that would be worth who knows what. A lot, a heck of a lot.
If it’s cheap what is wrong with it. Would cost a fortune to fix. Or is it a rust bucket and if it is it’s no good to anyone.
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Rob,
V2G has great potential as a reversible energy store.
As well as the domestic market set out in the BBC Click programme, commercial operators are looking at the opportunities the tech provides;
https://insideevs.com/news/439188/london-bus-depot-world-largest-v2g-site/
The Click programme is now on YT;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOdMczkkjTU
Last 10 minutes for the V2G domestic application.
Agreed. Challenges are still there, though.
As with Solar PV, the grid is designed for energy to flow out from centralised generation over transmission to distribution to substations to end users. Grid capacity for reverse flows are still problematic. I've been working on a grid scale solar/battery project that's absolutely huge, with a 25MW battery capacity, and yet only 8MW can be released back as the grid capacity available is limited. Network reinforcement costs were forecast to be absolutely enormous.
The future solution needs decentralised energy and more community energy - generate it, store it, use it and share it in localised hubs, lose the reliance in the HV transmission and distribution networks quite so much, and put communities back in charge of balancing their needs and wants. Rolls Royce are already looking at this model for their compact nuclear plants.
https://www.energylivenews.com/2020/11/12/rolls-royce-unveils-plans-for-16-mini-nuclear-plants-in-the-uk/
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Will it be cheaper to upgrade the grid to accept renewables in the long term where renewables are becoming almost cheaper on a daily basis rather than to develop mini nuclear plants that will still have to deal with the waste and safety problems Rob?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200309-are-small-nuclear-power-plants-safe-and-efficient
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Anyone interested in a 1964 Aston Martin DB5 going cheap?
The real James Bond car from Goldfinger. Now that would be worth who knows what. A lot, a heck of a lot.
If it’s cheap what is wrong with it. Would cost a fortune to fix. Or is it a rust bucket and if it is it’s no good to anyone.
Even a rust bucket is worth a fortune. There are plenty of people who will throw a couple of hundred grand into restoring them.
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My neighbour restored an original mk1 Ford Capri. To say it was a rust bucket is an understatement. It was barely recognisable as a car. Now after a great deal of effort and long nights with a welding torch it's like new with gleaming royal blue and white paintwork. He's had offers of silly money for it, there is a lot of nostalgia for Capris but he doesn't want to sell. Instead he's started doing up another one, at the moment though it's still little more than a rusty frame in a farmers shed. I suppose a restoration job on a Ford is much easier than an Aston though, the parts are cheaper and easier to come by. Still it's a worthwhile project for someone.
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My neighbour restored an original mk1 Ford Capri. To say it was a rust bucket is an understatement. It was barely recognisable as a car. Now after a great deal of effort and long nights with a welding torch it's like new with gleaming royal blue and white paintwork. He's had offers of silly money for it, there is a lot of nostalgia for Capris but he doesn't want to sell. Instead he's started doing up another one, at the moment though it's still little more than a rusty frame in a farmers shed. I suppose a restoration job on a Ford is much easier than an Aston though, the parts are cheaper and easier to come by. Still it's a worthwhile project for someone.
Restoring any old car is a money pit and you NEVER get your money back. As regards parts I reckon it will be easier to get hold of Aston parts rather than Ford as if you're prepared to pay anything is possible.
https://www.astonengineering.co.uk/restoration?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzO_KsLus7QIVmu3tCh3nfwYJEAAYASAAEgJ9u_D_BwE
Get your wallet out!
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Hound.
The Cameron Government slashed the subsidies for roof PV panels before the industry was well enough established to stand on its own. Because...Austerity innit.
It's an industry that relies on a mass market to drive down prices. They've continued to fall in other countries.
USA.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/e5C1Iq3DUS_tTPPh9TM9gIfpifPeazV_T8r4YIffwV5WZbkbQN_ZF0D6rqOUZmv4_z7A6_V-EFHzShtNb3DJF3oCrEgXaTeTsoV_BOp36JBvKDI9_xcJ2_Lklu-tUEbhgpQI-WO4rOgc_R9rWccb9K76ZSQGz1NoTsEo
Japan.
https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/statistics/re/img/graph_sun02.png
But here, there's been no reduction in cost since the subsidies were slashed.
https://www.solarguide.co.uk/data/imagecache/content_images/wpimages-solarguide.co.uk/2018/08/27125009/Cost-of-a-4kW-Solar-PV-System-UK-1.png
I was saying a couple of weeks ago that it was a foolish and shortsighted mistake of the Cameron Govt to effectively kill off the solar panel industry in the UK a decade ago. But I hadn't realised quite how bad a mistake.
Look at this summary of how the cost of PV panel electricity has plummeted over the years, where they have continued production. We should be covering every roof in the country with solar panels to produce the cheapest energy in the world. But we've no industry to do it.
https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth
Don't worry about the text. Scroll down to the graphs on how cost has changed over the years. Absolutely astonishing.
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Will it be cheaper to upgrade the grid to accept renewables in the long term where renewables are becoming almost cheaper on a daily basis rather than to develop mini nuclear plants that will still have to deal with the waste and safety problems Rob?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200309-are-small-nuclear-power-plants-safe-and-efficient
It's not a case of one or the other, Sydney. We need a mix of generation technologies as none are perfect. Nuclear isn't dynamic in terms of its capability to spin up or down or even off quickly to match output to demand, but is great for covering baseload, the levels below which the nations demand never falls. Gas and coal are better in terms of flexibility but obviously carry the carbon costs. Renewable sources are peaky in terms of their generation profile so cannot be relied upon to meet baseload demand. What happens when it's not windy or sunny? This is why storage is vital to the future energy landscape, particularly if projections on the increased demand for electricity by 2030 I've seen are correct and I've no reason to doubt them.
The flip of all this of course is that gas is cheap for heating purposes and electricity is expensive. Also, the government and regulator (Ofgem) are changing the way that taxes are levied in electricity for businesses starting next year with the express purpose of removing the opportunity for users with storage capability to avoid paying peak demand costs by effectively going off grid for short periods. There will be no winners from that other than the government and national grid. Look up TCR (it's nothing to do with a superior car slot racing game from the 80s, sadly)
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thanks Rob, my main issues are that energy produced from fossil fuels are not costed to cover rehab and the effects of climate change, gas is only marginally cleaner than coal as far as emissions. As the the problems of energy storage for renewables are overcome with batteries, pumped hydro and the like electricity will be the cheaper option I would have thought/hope.
I don't see gas as a problem as an emergency type resourse but if climate change is going to be addressed it will have to figure less and less in the mix. We won't of course get quite those dramatic returns as more come on line but solar/battery storage here is way cheaper than coal or gas generation.
The first large battery at around £50m installed in South Australia has already paid for itself and more.
https://www.torquenews.com/video/tesla-big-battery-australia-pays-itself-25-years-huge-profit#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20big%20battery%20in,paid%20itself%20in%202.5%20years.
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There is an enormous solar/storage facility being built in the outback at the moment, and a huge supply line being laid in the sea. That facility will power Singapore.
https://www.sciencealert.com/world-s-largest-solar-farm-to-pipe-power-internationally-from-australia-under-the-sea
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Latest UK sales figures now out;
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/04/uks-ev-market-share-jumps-to-16-in-november-overtaking-diesel/
Its happening now!
On the premature removal of solar subsidies by Cameron, the unit cost has continued to decline year on year.
It seems to me that the ability to charge a vehicle at home could provide a stimulus to solar rooftop going forwards.
I do agree that decisions not to support sunrise industries looks very myopic with the need to address climate change central to industrial strategy in the near term. All Cameron has done is disadvantage UK suppliers in the developing market.
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''UK's first all-electric car charging forecourt opens in Essex
Clean energy firm Gridserve has plans for more than 100 such sites over next five years''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/07/uk-first-all-electric-car-charging-forecourt-opens-in-essex
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Here's another big renewables program for NSW Rob, we have a massive problem here with the coalition RW federal government wanting to delay climate action for as long as possible and the labor opposition commiting the least possible agter losing the election last year. The major players atm are states and private industry.
Australia’s New South Wales announces A$32bn renewables push
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2020/11/australia-s-new-south-wales-announces-a-32bn-renewables-push/
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This looks like a significant change;
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/battery-electric-car-range-charge-time-b1790601.html
AL,
Don't read it, Lad....not good for your blood pressure!
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This looks like a significant change;
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/battery-electric-car-range-charge-time-b1790601.html
AL,
Don't read it, Lad....not good for your blood pressure!
:lol: :lol: :lol: