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I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.Democracy.A bit like voting in a government I suppose.
Quote from: drfchound on October 24, 2020, 10:32:27 pmI’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.Democracy.A bit like voting in a government I suppose.Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without a heavy heart .I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .
These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.
Quote from: tyke1962 on October 24, 2020, 10:51:27 pmQuote from: drfchound on October 24, 2020, 10:32:27 pmI’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.Democracy.A bit like voting in a government I suppose.Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without a heavy heart .I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.You think leaving the EU, and making it more time consuming and expensive for British manufacturers to sell into their closest market, will benefit 'the working class'!Brexit was a far-right concept, pushed by American billionaires (and the Russian state for their own reasons) to create a tax have in the UK, lower environmental, food, health & safety and working time regulations and benfit the super-rich at the expense of the working class. That's what you voted for. You won. Brexit is done, finished. Get over it.
Tyke Aye, and the point I've been making for years is that those people on the Bennite Left who wanted Brexit and voted for it (and I will go to my grave convinced that Corbyn is one of them) were criminally naive in not seeing what sort of Brexit they were going to enable.The Bennite Left has for decades seen the EU as a barrier to a Socialist Utopia. That may well be true. But it was also a barrier to the rabid excesses of a far-right free-market society.The Bennite Left who voted Leave almost certainly tipped the balance. They have opened the Pandora's box of a far-right controlled Brexit while not advancing the road to socialism by one inch.It is a classic example of naive, emotional self-indulgence over rational consideration.
Tyke.The Labour party has to be a coalition of interests or it is finished. The Labour party will not win power EVER by focussing on working class nationalism. Because the number of people who that attracts is tiny. The traditional working class is a fraction of the size it was 50 years ago. Labour HAS to appeal to urban, outward looking, young, multicultural professionals at least as much as it does to the working class.There;s no choice in that. Corbyn lost that metropolitan young section of support in early 2019, when he moved to accommodating and facilitating the Tory Brexit. The result was the lowest poll ratings and the lowest national election vote share for Labour since 1918.It's your choice. You can insist we have it all on your terms. You can demand that the Labour party becomes an economic nationalist one which puts up walls to the rest of the world if you want. I will guarantee you that if that happens, Labour wouldn't get into power again in our lifetimes. Or you can compromise. Address the world as it is, rather than as you ideally want it to be. Accept that fact that there are other people who support Labour who profoundly disagree with your opinion on minorities and immigrants. And find an accommodation that gives each side something of what they want. Instead of what you did over Brexit, which was to ensure that no-one in the Labour movement got what they want beyond an impotent lashing out.
PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.
Quote from: wilts rover on October 25, 2020, 08:25:10 amThese 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.I have said all along we NEED PR of some sort NOW and that imo is where the dispersed Labour voters who went Tory and Tories who dont want Labour could find a homeAt the moment "hah" who would vote for the Green Party or The Liberal Party??? They both get laughed at / ridiculed as something akin to the Monster Raving Loony Party but they have some good poilicies and ideas and would grow their "fan base" IF they could get a fair crack of the whip' Below is the table of what might have happened if PR of this type was used in the last GE December 2019 - where ONLY 43% of Votes cast went to Johnson and produced a "landslide" of 80 Seat majorityThe Libs would have gained massively, the Greens would be 12 Seats better off . Lib Dems got 11.5 % of all the votes cast (so thats a great support for the 3rd Party) and yet they got just 1.7% of the Seats on offer. Under the PR system they would have got 11.1% of all the Seats rewarding them and their supporters much much fairer FPTP PR ChangeConservative 365 288 77 -Brexit Party 0 10 10 +Labour 202 216 14 +Liberal Dem 11 70 59 +Green Party 1 12 11 +SNP 48 28 20 -Plaid Cymru 4 4 0DUP 8 6 2 -Sinn Féin 7 4 3 -SDLP 2 3 1 +Alliance 1 3 2 +UUP 0 2 2 +Others 1 4 3 -Much much fairer and who knows the Lib Dems might get stronger because the Voters fancy their Policies and ideas - and the Party would get heard more and promote those ideas. Disgruntled Tory voters who Vote Tory to avoid Labour might find a new home BUT the Tories have that majority and they have the most to lose - and as you will see would have got 77 Seats less for the same 43% SO THEY are never going to let it happen. It can only happen if Labour get in and campaign with the rest for what would be a fairer system and again imho be much fairer all round and less divisive
We could be in for an interesting election next time around. Labour will have purged itself of the hard left and hopefully got rid of the Corbynistas and the Borisettes will have departed taking the hard right with them. Who knows we could end up with a centrist party which I am sure is exactly what many people want. Lets face it the only reason Doris is in power is due to the dislike of Corbyn and the Lies and lets get rid of all the foreigners voters who got us Brexit and all the problems that come with it.
Dislike of the EU is not a badge of honour SS is shows a misunderstanding of it and a readiness to believe the b*llocks.
SS.I'm guessing you missed Peter Kellner from YouGov about 3-4 months ago? Analysing polling data. He reckons Labour have re-taken the lead in pretty much all the Red Wall seats.
I take your point SS that brexit had nothing to do with the election of johnson.